TDK vs CA: TWS

TDK or TWS?

  • The Dark Knight

  • Captain America: The Winter Soldier


Results are only viewable after voting.
The joker had a significant arc. At the beginning of the movie he is only interested in money. Later on he sets fire to a pile of money in an incredible scene.

Yeah he starts off as a theatrical bank robber who has a small gang, wants half the mob money, and Batman dead. He claws his way up to the ruler of the underworld, becomes so obsessed with Batman that he can't imagine life without him because he's too much fun, and he burns the mob money.
 
Yeah he starts off as a theatrical bank robber who has a small gang, wants half the mob money, and Batman dead. He claws his way up to the ruler of the underworld, becomes so obsessed with Batman that he can't imagine life without him because he's too much fun, and he burns the mob money.

Also goes from wanting to kill harvey dent to seducing him to a life of evil.

Definitely a greater character arc than alexander pierce.
 
That seemed more out of opportunity than growth though
Pierce didn't have much of an arc, but neither did the Joker, yet both were still great characters
As a cool, charming but creepy bad guy though, it's tough to match Ledger's Joker, Loki in Thor 1 was the closest anyone's come

I'd personally say these two movies are very even, but voted for Cap just because I knew an onslaught of batfans would be heading this way
 
The joker had a significant arc. At the beginning of the movie he is only interested in money. Later on he sets fire to a pile of money in an incredible scene.

I didn't take it that he was interested in money. I took it that he was trying to setup his own agenda against the mob. There's no story arc there, there doesn't need to be.

The Joker is just an agent of chaos. It's really that simple, Heath just did a tremendous job at playing that irreverence on screen.
 
Also goes from wanting to kill harvey dent to seducing him to a life of evil.

Definitely a greater character arc than alexander pierce.

Exactly. When you see a character grow from a lowly criminal who wants Batman dead, to the ruler of the underworld, who burns money, and is obsessed with Batman so much that he wants him alive for fun, that is a character arc.

No question.

..A lot of people died in Cap 2.

He didn't mean that. It was a stupid false insinuation that the only reason people love TDK is because Heath died.

Even 6 years later, with TDK still retaining it's high status, some people still try and play that BS card.
 
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As good as CA:TWS is, it does not hold a candle to TDK in terms of emotional wallop and scope. Ledger's Joker alone makes Bucky and Hydra look like pushovers.
 
This is so not even close. TDK is better in every aspect, except hand 2 hand combat.
 
TDK, but TWS was just as good and enjoyable, imo. Not a fan of Captain America outside of the films, but I really loved the film. Definitely one of the best in the genre.
 
I completely disagree about the scope, and I gave the nod to TDK in this thread. One of the problems with TDK is it's limited scope. In all the Nolan films, he acts like Gotham City is in a bubble, and none of the Jokers actions have any consequence outside of Gotham. The most you get is a hit an run on a Chinese official, who is turned back over to the Gotham police.

TWS by definition is larger in scope in that it deals with global threats on a world wide scale.

This goes back to something I said before about TWS being a political thriller vs. TDK which is a crime drama. But the scale is definitely bigger for TWS.

I give a pass on TDK, but in TDKR it's even more ridiculous, showing the federal government to be incompetent but a bunch of beat cops who fight the bad guys by mob rushing and standing out in the open against tanks, are able to overcome Bane.
 
TWS by definition is larger in scope in that it deals with global threats on a world wide scale.

Deals with global threats in a very local way.

This goes back to something I said before about TWS being a political thriller

That´s just like saying TASM is a comedy because it has a few laughs in it. I know fans of the movie like that term, but it isn´t a political thriller.
 
I'd actually say TASM is moreso a mockery of Peter Parker, as opposed to a comedy. :o
 
I'd actually say TASM is moreso a mockery of Peter Parker, as opposed to a comedy. :o

Yap.

What i´m saying is, there are movies that are promoted as thrillers, because that´s what defines them better. There are movies that are promoted as comedies, because they really are comedies. TWS hasn´t been promoted as a thriller of any sort, as far as i know.

I don´t see TWS as a fair example of a political thriller. That element, even if present in the movie, is certainly not the main focus of it. The movie also has comedic and dramatic elements, but i wouldn´t define it as a comedy or as a drama. It´s an action movie.
 
Just how The Dark Knight isn't a crime drama.

I personally never defined it as a crime drama, but it has more elements of crime drama in it than TWS has elements of political thriller. And i´m pretty sure TDK has been promoted as a crime drama right from the start, so it´s something that was always presented .
 
I personally never defined it as a crime drama, but it has more elements of crime drama in it than TWS has elements of political thriller. And i´m pretty sure TDK has been promoted as a crime drama right from the start, so it´s something that was always presented .

Cap 2 was promised to be a political thriller from the first interviews given by the Russo's. It's as much a political thriller as TDK is a 'crime drama'.
 
Cap 2 was promised to be a political thriller from the first interviews given by the Russo's. It's as much a political thriller as TDK is a 'crime drama'.

I don´t see much politics in it, and the thriller aspect is present for like...hummm...20 minutes or so. It´s clearly an action/adventure/fantasy movie. Those are the most present elements.

It´s not about the subject of the movie. It´s about how it is explored. You can have two movies with the same subject and one ends up being a thriller and the other a comedy. I think we´re downplaying a little bit the concept of the genre here by calling TWS a political thriller.
 
You do know about the term subgenres, correct? Action, adventure, etc. are lazy ways to group movies. As a film historian, this is such a pet peeve for me.

Winter Soldier has more political overtones and undertones than any film in the genre thus far. The entire second half with the characters on the run against a form of a higher-up government is a defining trait that is prevalent in 75% of all "political thrillers". To say that TWS shouldn't be considered a political thriller is ignorant and condescending to the CBM genre.
 
Winter Soldier has more political overtones and undertones than any film in the genre thus far. The entire second half with the characters on the run against a form of a higher-up government is a defining trait that is prevalent in 75% of all "political thrillers". To say that TWS shouldn't be considered a political thriller is ignorant and condescending to the CBM genre.

Wich doesn´t make it a political thriller. I´m sorry, you can say whatever you want, but If i had to quickly the describe the type of movie TWS is to someone, i would never use the term "political thriller". I just don´t think that would be accurate. I think if i used that term people would expect a different movie.
 
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I wouldn't either, I'd describe it as a comic book movie. But I also would never quickly describe TDK as a crime drama or MOS as an invasion story.

I would however, describe that to other film studies majors and hard-core cinephiles.
 
I wouldn't either, I'd describe it as a comic book movie. But I also would never quickly describe TDK as a crime drama or MOS as an invasion story.

I would however, describe that to other film studies majors and hard-core cinephiles.

What are the political undertones and overtones of TWS?

We have a line from Steve Rogers and we have the reveal that HYDRA is controlling SHIELD. I wouldn´t say those two underdeveloped elements would be enough to make TWS a political thriller. That´s like saying TA is a comedy because they crack some jokes.
 
What are the political undertones and overtones of TWS?

We have a line from Steve Rogers and we have the reveal that HYDRA is controlling SHIELD. I wouldn´t say those two underdeveloped elements would be enough to make TWS a political thriller. That´s like saying TA is a comedy because they crack some jokes.

You really can't personally see the correlation between post 9-11 to contemporary politics in real life and the issues presented in the film?
 
Space Ghost, is it your sole purpose on this site to stir the pot? Every thread you've been on in the last couple of days has exploded in anger and in arguments right after that.
 
You really can't personally see the correlation between post 9-11 to contemporary politics in real life and the issues presented in the film?

I can see the correlation. I just think there´s a huge difference between a movie simply making a reference and actually approaching the subject in a deeper way.

But i can understand what you´re saying. I simply tend to define the genre of a movie based on the most present elements. That´s why i don´t think TWS is a political thriller. But we don´t all have to see things the same way :cwink:

Cheers!
 
I guess my perspective might be a little unique. For the most part I've been a DC/Batman person for most of my life. I still consider my self a fan. If you were to ask me a few years ago I would say with certainty that my "holy trinity" of action/adventure cinema would be James Bond, Indiana Jones, and Batman. Now it would have to be the holy forefathers. Cap has made my act/adv holy trinity knocking out Batman. And for the most part I love the Nolan films. I saw BB over 10 times on the big screen. It's still one of my favorite movies along with TDK. I'm a little biased in that I kinda like the who secret agent spy game kinda stuff and I happen to have a strange liking for the more creative cliffhanger serial style kills present in the Bond and Indy films. That's that Nolan needs to improve on. He's doesn't know how to give villains a satisfying demise. That's he needs to master before being allowed to direct a Bond film.

Story wise I think Nolan has the edge overall and TDK is a modern classic. Action wise TWS has a lot of stuff beat right now in my opinion. Storywise I think TWS is a bit stronger than stuff like Skyfall and it's trumps it action wise. I still think Casino Royale has the best action in the Craig era and it's my favorite of Craig's Bond films. I bring up Craig Bond because his films for me kinda of compliment Nolan's Bat trilogy and it feels like there's a bit of mutual inspiration going on. TFA changed things for me. I still love my Bond and Batman films, there's Bond 24 in '15 to look forward to but Nolan's run with Bale has ended, and it's not that I'm not interested in BvS but I feel like I'm kinda satisfied on the Bat front for the time being, perhaps when we see a bit more of what the new film will look like then my interest will pick up more.

Like I said earlier TFA changed things for me. Until then I was pretty much just DC. I wasn't as interested in Marvel at that time to be honest. I actually didn't see TFA the first time on the big screen, only recently with a TWS 3D double feature, but when I first saw TFA on dvd I knew it was a favorite of mine. Favorite doesn't always mean best made, I think BB is the better movie when placed against TFA, and while both favorites it's things like the propeller scene in TFA that's a throwback to Raiders that makes it my favorite if I were pressed to choose between the two. Since TFA I have read pretty much the whole run of Cap stories. I'd read a good deal of the major Bat arcs from the comics, all the usuals before ever reading Cap. Honestly there's some Bat stories I really love, but overall I was able to connect with Cap more, maybe because my Grandfather is a WW2 vet and Cap came across closer to the James Bond style of action/adventure plot more often than Batman stories although I really enjoyed a lot of the Ra's Al Ghul stuff the Denny O'Neil did.

Now with TWS and TDK, I would say storywise they are about on par with each other but TDK has the edge. TWS is still on par with the TDK for me storywise and on the emotional level. For me the scene with the prisoner on the ferry and the ending with Dent had the same kinda of effect as the confrontation between Steve/Bucky "end of the line" and the ending montage. The action and fight scenes at least for me, TWS wins against TDK. Lots of fun battles. Honestly if you were to ask me my three favorite movies from the last 10 years, they would be Casino Royale, The Dark Knight, and now Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

The one thing I take issue with that I have seen is the notion that aside from Fury, no one had much a of character arc in TWS. I disagree with that and if that's how one see's it then perhaps they need to view the film again and reexamine things. Nothing wrong with that, a good excuse to see TWS again. I would argue that character's like Pierce and Bucky had far more significant arcs than Joker. I know, I know...but if you really think about it, a lot of what is said to try and demonstrate that Joker had some kind of transformative arc in TDK kinda contradicts the very intention of that character as depicted by Nolan and Co. He's intended to be a force of nature, an extreme. If you think Joker was somehow interested in Money or taking over the mob at the start then you're missing the point of the character all together. If was never about the money. The money just allowed him to expand the scope of his madness. The beginning bank heist and the finale with the ferries has the same idea going for it, just a far larger scale, trying to prove the whole dog eat dog chaos theory. Nothing really changes for Joker, he is a constant. It's the same message at the beginning as it is at the end, just far louder. He's a textbook psychopath and that's what his "arc" was all about. Nothing wrong with that. He played it perfectly. However aside from the fact that he's caught and his clothes are little more expensive he doesn't really change, nor is there a great revelation. Joker is what he is, that force of nature, chaos. To claim that he's some guy who wanted money, to rule mob, and kill batman as a significant transformative arc is a little silly from my perspective.

It's not like TDK doesn't have some well done character arc's for Bruce, Dent, Rachel, even Gordon. To say that TWS doesn't have a significant arc for Steve, Natasha, Falcon, Bucky, especially Pierce doesn't make sense at all to me. None of them are the same at the start as they are at the end. A big part of the plot involves character's entire status quos being upending. I mean if you can't remember or didn't see the significant arcs for Natasha, no longer a secret agent and Steve dealing with his guilt over what happened with Bucky all those years ago and that reaching some climax/resolution not to mention Bucky himself although seemly underused has a very significant arc. I mean he's back from the dead, now a brainwashed assassin, trying to regain fragments of who he was. Don't think I'm forgetting Pierce. I'd argue that his arc is far more revelatory than say Joker's in TDK. And that in no way is a slight at TDK. Just stating the facts of how the characters are portrayed. If anything the revelation of Joker happens in the opening scene, and the fact that Nolan and Ledger pulled off selling everything about their Joker in that one opening bank heist is in and out itself all kinds of wonderful. What I don't like is seeing people using bogus arguments to bring down a film I happened to really like. My perspective is that statements like "aside from Fury, no one had any significant character arc in TWS" are bogus and untrue.
 

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