TDK vs CA: TWS

TDK or TWS?

  • The Dark Knight

  • Captain America: The Winter Soldier


Results are only viewable after voting.
I'm not referring to location either. I'm referring to a guy who drives around in classified government tech, and a terrorist who blows up hospitals, and the scope never goes beyond the Gotham Police. When it finally does in TDKR, the government officials is shown to be incompetent, and the President goes on National television to say that he isn't going to do anything about it?

The same is true of cap 2.

Washington DC might get destroyed.

Are any fighter aircraft dispatched to blow up the hellicarriers? No. Is law enforcement send into SHIELD headquarters? No.

Washington DC is just SHIELD in that movie.
 
No one knew about SHIELD/HYDRA's plan (except Cap and co) until the end.
 
You mean imagine him appearing all of a sudden infront of Fury's SUV and launching an ordinance that blows it over? Or imagine him sniping Fury in Steve's apartment, and then fleeing and disappearing never to be found? Or imagine him jumping onto a car in the middle of a highway and ripping a passenger out and throwing him into oncoming traffic? Or hearing stories about how he killed Howard and Maria Stark, and once killed an Iranian Nuclear physicist that the Black Widow was ordered to extract? Or how he always used a soviet made rifle to kill his victims? :whatever:

I mean him having a more consistent presence through all the movie instead of a couple of short scenes followed by one fighting scene where we immediatly learn who he is. I mean the legends and mystery surrounding him being propagated by more people and mediums instead of simply by Black Widow in a sexy voice. I mean the idea of fear and paranoia being paid more attention to and better developed. I mean suspense, intrigue and deception being the main focus of the movie. I mean a better character. I mean a real thriller.
 
Cap 2 is a pure comic book movie in that there are no real stakes. Rogers ends up achieveing a comprehensive and absolutebvictory at the end, which is the biggest criticism that non fans make of the genre, that there is no suspense since the ending is known in advance. The movie ends with all the good guys alive and happy at the end, and business is back to normal in Washington.

In contrast, batman does not achieve absolute victory in TDK. That is part of why it feels different. There are actual stakes, as if it's not just a cbm, but the story just go from point a to point b in a logical manner.

Does Nick Fury give Batman a magic USB stick at the end if TDK that will solve every problem? No.


No, everything does not end sunshine and roses. There was no victory. SHIELD is gone but HYDRA survived as stated in the film. Fury has to pretend to be dead to stop them, and he's off to do so. Romanov has all her identities blown, she doesn't work for SHIELD and she has to figure out what she is going to do. Bucky fled, and who knows what state he is in, or where he is, and Steve chooses to go after him. He is no longer working for SHIELD, there is no SHIELD.

And no Fury doesn't give Batman a magic stick, but Fox gives him all his toys, just like Q does for Bond, that always seem to solve every situation, so don't sit there and pretend this doesn't happen in the Nolan Films.
 
The same is true of cap 2.

Washington DC might get destroyed.

Are any fighter aircraft dispatched to blow up the hellicarriers? No. Is law enforcement send into SHIELD headquarters? No.

Washington DC is just SHIELD in that movie.


Did you even see the film? They were trying to get help for Cap and TWS took out nearly all the support craft.

Secondly law enforcement would never be called into a government facility. I know you're in another country, so you may not be familiar with how our government works, but if a military base were to come under attack, Military police have first jurisdiction and local law enforcement would only be called in at the discretion of the military.
 
You have a ghost agent assassin that´s barely in the movie and the most memorable thing about him is that he is a fantastic martial artist. No political or thriller vibe in it at all.

Now imagine that some key government officials start being killed one by one through all the movie. We don´t know who is doing it. Steve, Natasha and other good people in SHIELD are being incriminated in a convincing way and then chased. The movie creates the feeling that there´s no way out. It makes us wonder how they´re gonna get out of that situation.

Imagine that The Winter Soldier is really portrayed as a ghost. He appears several times out of nowhere, kills people in a cool way, and we´re left wondering who he is through all most of the movie. We don´t know nothing about him. He is just a dangerous mythical figure. A ghost, and we hear stories about him.

And now imagine that the entire movie is about that and those subjects are really, really well explored. Imagine that we would have to wait until almost the end of the movie for the big revelation, and the big revelation was something very unexpected. THAT would be a thriller.

What we got was simply some hints. We didn´t get a real thriller. Not the way i see it. But this is just my opinion.

I believe it was Hitchcock who said it best when it comes to spoilers, revelations, and keeping the audience thrilled, in suspense at the edge of their seat. You got two people in a restaurant, they have a conversation for 5 mins then boom, a bomb under the table goes off for shocking effect. It's shocking and creates tension and is disorienting creating suspense. But the preceding 5 mins the audience would be lost or bored by the conversation. If you let the audience in the fact that there's a bomb under the seat then you create a whole sequence of anticipation, anxiety and suspense being aware of something the character's on screen are not. You now have 6 minutes of thriller/suspense.

Keeping the audience in the dark about what was actually going on and who was who till a big revelation and cheap shocks does not necessarily equal political thriller. The whole political thriller of Winter Soldier is not centered around the revelation and shock of who/what Bucky is/has become, but a lot larger in scope. The question raised at the start by Steve to Fury, is how far is too far in giving the powers that be near God-like control or over our fate and lives? That question is answered pretty clearly with the revelation of the truth behind SHIELD. Natasha kinda says it best when she talks about about trading the KGB for HYDRA/SHIELD. It's kinda implied earlier and goes with some really spy thriller themes also that go hand in hand with the politics of it all. People like Natasha and Fury have had to compromise their moral beliefs, ideologies, even the nature of who they truly are to be able to survive and be effective at what they do. And sometimes they have to do some very morally questionable things and make some sketchy calls all in the name of the keeping us all safe. But they have become tools, blunt instruments who essentially the difference between whether what they are doing is good or evil lies solely in the intentions of those (The policymakers/ "Political aspect") who wield them.

That issue is brought to the forefront in this film and is a parallel to real world stuff right now in just how far are we willing to let the various intelligence communities go in order to keep us safe, just what are we willing to sacrifice and just how much power we intend to give away to the policymakers or are we going to pay and attention and make sure such a system that could easily be retooled into one for extermination on a mass scale is never allowed to even remotely become possible. I mean drones, AI, surveillance, the world is getting really sci-fi and certain seemingly godlike powers are within man's grasp. It kinda also plays into the same themes explored in TDK and the whole cellphone sonar. Some things are not worth it. Like what Ben Franklin said about those who trade freedom for security? If those kinds of themes and questions are not political thriller, and this movie raises these issues but rather than saving the revelation for a shocking twist ending we actually get a good portion of the movie having to deal with the consequences of the said revelation and that to me in and of it self is pretty thrilling.
 
No, everything does not end sunshine and roses. There was no victory. SHIELD is gone but HYDRA survived as stated in the film. Fury has to pretend to be dead to stop them, and he's off to do so. Romanov has all her identities blown, she doesn't work for SHIELD and she has to figure out what she is going to do. Bucky fled, and who knows what state he is in, or where he is, and Steve chooses to go after him. He is no longer working for SHIELD, there is no SHIELD.

And no Fury doesn't give Batman a magic stick, but Fox gives him all his toys, just like Q does for Bond, that always seem to solve every situation, so don't sit there and pretend this doesn't happen in the Nolan Films.

Fox building the batmobile is not equivalent to fury giving cap a magic USB stick.
 
I believe it was Hitchcock who said it best when it comes to spoilers, revelations, and keeping the audience thrilled, in suspense at the edge of their seat. You got two people in a restaurant, they have a conversation for 5 mins then boom, a bomb under the table goes off for shocking effect. It's shocking and creates tension and is disorienting creating suspense. But the preceding 5 mins the audience would be lost or bored by the conversation. If you let the audience in the fact that there's a bomb under the seat then you create a whole sequence of anticipation, anxiety and suspense being aware of something the character's on screen are not. You now have 6 minutes of thriller/suspense.

You don´t need to be aware of what´s exactly happening in order to keep the audience thrilled. Quite the contrary. Half way through the movie i already knew what was going on and in what direction the movie was heading. No thrill or suspense in that. Just another "oh, now he is gonna stop the bad guys from killing millions and by the end we will have an emotional moment with TWS soldier."

You can have the thrill of knowing that something bad is about to happen without already having all the main details about it. That makes it for a better movie. Less predictable and more engaging. There´s a reason why a lot of Hitchcock´s movies don´t tell you right off the bat what´s happening. He knew how to preserve the mystery and the suspense.

TWS is a typical superhero story, that´s why there isn´t much thrill or suspense about it. It´s about as straight forward as you can get.
 
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People are saying that the cap 2 characters had significant arcs without being able to delineate what those arcs are, lol.

Well it seems you really need some one to walk you through step by step, you should really see the movie again also just in case but,

Steve- He has a significant arc in TWS. First of all at the start he's trying his hand at the whole spy game with SHIELD, traditionally he's more of a soldier and he even states this but he still tries his hand at it, trying fit in with the modern world, by the end of the movie he's feed up with the spy-trade and his role is that of the soldier, no deception in his line of work. It's not his core character. That's something he discovers conclusively in this film. Also at the start perhaps his most pivotal arc is the one with Bucky. Maybe it helps if you're more familiar with the comics and just how much he's haunted by his perceived failure with Bucky's "death" in the war. There's decades worth of buildup in the comics but there's enough in the film, i.e the Smithsonian stuff and flashbacks, the whole end of the line stuff that is payed off in the end. Then there's the general kinda depressed mode that he's in at the start with whole man out of time stuff, focusing on just the missions, as the film progresses Steve seems to get more open to Widow's attempts to hook him up with a date with Steve learning Sharon's name at the end. At the end after his confrontation with Bucky which is the culmination of that arc,the whole guilt ridden/haunted Steve to one who now not only knows Bucky is alive, but maybe there's a real chance to save him. At the end of the TWS Cap has a clear mission purpose going forward. I daresay he seems cautiously optimistic after being so uncertain of if he still had a role in the new world. That's very significant character arc movement for Steve.

Natasha- she was a former KGB agent who essentially believed she had reformed by joining SHIELD. It's revealed that she's essentially a cipher, she has no real set identity, or even real sense of who she is anymore aside from her whole Black Widow persona, she is what the mission needs/dictates her to be. the whole secret/mysterious aspects of her character is very intentional and part of what she is as a covert agent. When she discovers that she has become nothing more or perhaps was just a tool who's morality is only as good at the intentions of those who wield her, and the revelation HYDRA SHIELD, force her to seriously reexamine everything about who and what she is and what she stand's for. At the end with the destruction of SHIELD and the fact that she uploads all her own personal secrets along with that of SHIELD, we have essentially seen the death of the "Black Widow" as we know her. At the end she's essentially a blank slate, starting over which direction she'll go remains to be seen. If that's not a significant character arc than there really is no point trying to explain anymore but I will...

Bucky- Granted he's somewhat underused/ more low key in the plot although is very pivotal to Steve's arc and his own. The saying less is more applies here and Winter Soldier was very effective in the film. He's basically Bucky who at the start of this story is believed dead. Now we learn that not only is he alive but he's been used as an assassin by the very organization that Steve now works for and also partly inspired it's initial creation. there's the revelation that they've tried to destroy who Bucky was and turn him into just a mindless drone assassin, a tool, a blunt instrument perhaps the extreme end of the costs to mind and soul that the business entails with Steve, Cap, Nat, Fury, and Pierce all also suffer from and deal with the consequence of to one extent to another. At the end we learn that the villains were not entirely successful and that perhaps their is something in there to salvage and at the very end we get a big hint that just maybe he's starting to become aware of just who he is. And this is a guy who was "dead" at the end of the last movie. If that Resurrection Arc is not in and of itself a "significant arc" than I give up.

Well let's not forget Pierce- We are introduced to guy as friend of Nick Fury who wants favors with Iron Man, will move heaven and earth to bring his friends killers to justice, only to have it slowly revealed that he's a man who's been totally consumed by that world of lies and deception to point that he really sees no difference between good or bad, he's just interested in the bottomline, power, although he probably sees himself as some kind of savior. The betrayal and revelation of that are somewhat significant and a symptom of the overall troubles facing the characters. This guy falls a long ways from Iron man at birthday parties to Hail Hydra with his dying breath. I think the fact that he started the story alive to end up dead also counts as significant development for his arc.

And of course we seem to agree on Fury lol. Either way I think you should watch the movie again.
 
You don´t need to be aware of what´s exactly happening in order to keep the audience thrilled. Quite the contrary. Half way through the movie i already knew what´s going on and in what direction the movie was heading. No thrill or suspense in that. Just another "oh, now he is gonna stop the bad guys from killing millions and by the end we will have an emotional moment with TWS soldier."

You can have the thrill of knowing that something bad is about to happen without already having all the main details about it. That makes it for a better movie. Less predictable and more engaging. There´s a reason why a lot of Hitchcock´s movies don´t tell you right of the bat what´s happening. He knew how to preserve the mystery and the suspense.

TWS is a typical superhero story, that´s why there isn´t much thrill or suspense about it. It´s about as straight forward as you can get.

You can sit there and sream that it wasn't suspenseful, but that doesn't mean that TWS isn't a political thriller. It's completely done in the style of a political thriller, it's not even a debatable point.
 
You don´t need to be aware of what´s exactly happening in order to keep the audience thrilled. Quite the contrary. Half way through the movie i already knew what´s going on and in what direction the movie was heading. No thrill or suspense in that. Just another "oh, now he is gonna stop the bad guys from killing millions and by the end we will have an emotional moment with TWS soldier."

You can have the thrill of knowing that something bad is about to happen without already having all the main details about it. That makes it for a better movie. Less predictable and more engaging. There´s a reason why a lot of Hitchcock´s movies don´t tell you right of the bat what´s happening. He knew how to preserve the mystery and the suspense.

TWS is a typical superhero story, that´s why there isn´t much thrill or suspense about it. It´s about as straight forward as you can get.

You missed the point of what I was saying. The funny thing about Hitchcock is he would give the audience more information than they needed at times, intentionally sometimes to point of what would be considered the movie spoiling itself in contemporary times, although some were intentional red herrings. Sometimes the suspense is not in not knowing where things are going, you can see where the ending is coming a mile away but sometimes, the fun, suspense, and thrill comes from how they get there. And with Winter Soldier I knew some pretty big plots before hand but not the exact how so it was still thrilling and surprising for me. There were surprises in how somethings happened. Although I didn't try too hard before hand to figure everything out. By most perspectives and at least mine TWS has Political thriller/spy thriller aspects with the plot of a superhero comic book movie. To claim anything else is a little odd sounding to me.
 
Director: Christopher Nolan vs Russo Brothers - Winner: Christopher Nolan

Cast: Christian Bale, Heath Ledger, Aaron Eckhart, Gary Oldman, Michael Caine, Morgan Freeman, Maggie Gyllenhaal vs Chris Evans, Scarlette Johansson, Samuel L. Jackson, Sebastian Stan, Anthonie Mackie, Cobie Smulders, Robert Redford - Winner: TDK Cast

Plot: When Batman, Gordon and Harvey Dent launch an assault on the mob, they let the clown out of the box, the Joker, bent on turning Gotham on itself and bringing any heroes down to his level vs Steve Rogers struggles to embrace his role in the modern world and battles a new threat from old history: the Soviet agent known as the Winter Soldier. Winner: TIE

Music: Hans Zimmer vs Henry Jackman - Winner: Hans Zimmer

Action: TDK's realistic/suspense action vs CA:WS's hyper realistic/adrenaline pumping action - Winner: CA:WS

Reviews (based on RT): TDK 94% vs CA:WS 89% - Winner: TDK

Box Office: TBD




Based on these criteria I'd say The Dark Knight is the victor.
 
Well it seems you really need some one to walk you through step by step, you should really see the movie again also just in case but,

Steve- He has a significant arc in TWS. First of all at the start he's trying his hand at the whole spy game with SHIELD, traditionally he's more of a soldier and he even states this but he still tries his hand at it, trying fit in with the modern world, by the end of the movie he's feed up with the spy-trade and his role is that of the soldier, no deception in his line of work. It's not his core character. That's something he discovers conclusively in this film. Also at the start perhaps his most pivotal arc is the one with Bucky. Maybe it helps if you're more familiar with the comics and just how much he's haunted by his perceived failure with Bucky's "death" in the war. There's decades worth of buildup in the comics but there's enough in the film, i.e the Smithsonian stuff and flashbacks, the whole end of the line stuff that is payed off in the end. Then there's the general kinda depressed mode that he's in at the start with whole man out of time stuff, focusing on just the missions, as the film progresses Steve seems to get more open to Widow's attempts to hook him up with a date with Steve learning Sharon's name at the end. At the end after his confrontation with Bucky which is the culmination of that arc,the whole guilt ridden/haunted Steve to one who now not only knows Bucky is alive, but maybe there's a real chance to save him. At the end of the TWS Cap has a clear mission purpose going forward. I daresay he seems cautiously optimistic after being so uncertain of if he still had a role in the new world. That's very significant character arc movement for Steve.

Natasha- she was a former KGB agent who essentially believed she had reformed by joining SHIELD. It's revealed that she's essentially a cipher, she has no real set identity, or even real sense of who she is anymore aside from her whole Black Widow persona, she is what the mission needs/dictates her to be. the whole secret/mysterious aspects of her character is very intentional and part of what she is as a covert agent. When she discovers that she has become nothing more or perhaps was just a tool who's morality is only as good at the intentions of those who wield her, and the revelation HYDRA SHIELD, force her to seriously reexamine everything about who and what she is and what she stand's for. At the end with the destruction of SHIELD and the fact that she uploads all her own personal secrets along with that of SHIELD, we have essentially seen the death of the "Black Widow" as we know her. At the end she's essentially a blank slate, starting over which direction she'll go remains to be seen. If that's not a significant character arc than there really is no point trying to explain anymore but I will...

Bucky- Granted he's somewhat underused/ more low key in the plot although is very pivotal to Steve's arc and his own. The saying less is more applies here and Winter Soldier was very effective in the film. He's basically Bucky who at the start of this story is believed dead. Now we learn that not only is he alive but he's been used as an assassin by the very organization that Steve now works for and also partly inspired it's initial creation. there's the revelation that they've tried to destroy who Bucky was and turn him into just a mindless drone assassin, a tool, a blunt instrument perhaps the extreme end of the costs to mind and soul that the business entails with Steve, Cap, Nat, Fury, and Pierce all also suffer from and deal with the consequence of to one extent to another. At the end we learn that the villains were not entirely successful and that perhaps their is something in there to salvage and at the very end we get a big hint that just maybe he's starting to become aware of just who he is. And this is a guy who was "dead" at the end of the last movie. If that Resurrection Arc is not in and of itself a "significant arc" than I give up.

Well let's not forget Pierce- We are introduced to guy as friend of Nick Fury who wants favors with Iron Man, will move heaven and earth to bring his friends killers to justice, only to have it slowly revealed that he's a man who's been totally consumed by that world of lies and deception to point that he really sees no difference between good or bad, he's just interested in the bottomline, power, although he probably sees himself as some kind of savior. The betrayal and revelation of that are somewhat significant and a symptom of the overall troubles facing the characters. This guy falls a long ways from Iron man at birthday parties to Hail Hydra with his dying breath. I think the fact that he started the story alive to end up dead also counts as significant development for his arc.

And of course we seem to agree on Fury lol. Either way I think you should watch the movie again.

you don't know what a character arc. An arc is how the character changes in identity during the movie. Pierce beibg revealed to be a villain -- even though everyone knew he was a villain the entire time -- is not an arc. He was a villain the whole time, the same kind of villain.

Dying is not a character arc lol.

It is true that he was once a good guy, but he became a bad guy offscreen, before the movie began.
 
you don't know what a character arc. An arc is how the character changes in identity during the movie. Pierce beibg revealed to be a villain -- even though everyone knew he was a villain the entire time -- is not an arc. He was a villain the whole time, the same kind of villain.

Dying is not a character arc lol.

It is true that he was once a good guy, but he became a bad guy offscreen, before the movie began.

I guess we have a slightly differently definition of "character arcs". All that stuff with Pierce may have happened off screen but in the context of the film he is portrayed as a good guy for the most part, perhaps a little ruthless but no indication that he was the big bad mastermind until the turn with housekeeper. And I knew he was going to be a bad guy before hand but the movie establishes that he is kind of a likable guy before the big revelation. At least that's the effect I got. The sense of betrayal was real even though I knew it was coming. Dying may not be "character arc" but it's a very significant character development and usually means the end of an arc. Pierce may not have had an in your face/heavy handed kinda of story arc but how he is portrayed/perceived by other characters and the audience under goes a change/evolution throughout the story which is intended by the storytellers. I see that as an "arc", movement of the character. The way you frame these arguments it almost makes me think you haven't see the movie or just wasn't interested or paying attention.
 
To me, the only people who had significant characters arcs in Winter Soldier were Nick Fury and Black Widow. Captain American was always hesitant about what Shield was doing and his suspicions were realized with Hydra. Pierce was always a bad guy...it's as simple as that. Falcon was always a good guy who is willing to do the right thing. Even the Winter Soldier's arc didn't really start until near the end of the film. Fury always trusted in Shield until the attempt on his life and it seems Black Widow is always confused. That's my take on the character arcs in CA:WS.

In TDK, however, most of the characters has significant character arcs. Batman started off as the savior, then trusted in Harvey to take over as the savior, and ended as being Gotham's bad guy. Harvey...well, no explanation needed. Gordon went from trusting only trusting Batman to also trusting in Harvey, to abandoning his trust for Harvey and ultimate being forced to act like he didn't trust Batman. The only 2 main characters who didn't have an arc were the throw-away character (Rachel) and the main guy, Joker.

Ultimately, I think TDK's character arcs were handled better because the script was written, in part, by a man who is very cerebral and psychological...Christopher Nolan. TDK is as much of a psychological thriller as it is a crime drama as it is a superhero film.
 
Cap 2 is a pure comic book movie in that there are no real stakes. Rogers ends up achieveing a comprehensive and absolutebvictory at the end, which is the biggest criticism that non fans make of the genre, that there is no suspense since the ending is known in advance. The movie ends with all the good guys alive and happy at the end, and business is back to normal in Washington.

In contrast, batman does not achieve absolute victory in TDK. That is part of why it feels different. There are actual stakes, as if it's not just a cbm, but the story just go from point a to point b in a logical manner.

Does Nick Fury give Batman a magic USB stick at the end if TDK that will solve every problem? No.

But every problem is not solved. SHIELD is gone for now and HYDRA still remains. The world is scarred from the wars and disasters that HYDRA was secretly responsible for creating over 70 years. Hell, there are probably still HYDRA politicians in Washington. And Steve still hasn't gotten to officially reunite with Bucky yet.
 
Voted The Dark Knight. Love both to bits, but while I feel The Winter Solider is an incredibly well-made comic book movie, TDK is just a one-of-a-kind. There are elements of brilliance in the latter (Ledger's legendary performance, the duality arc of Two-Face running parallel alongside Batman's), which I don't feel TWS has.

TDK is also the stronger movie I feel, because it's the better self-contained one. Although TDK has an advantage in that it's set in its own universe. With more comic book movies being set in a cinematic universe, I wonder if we'll ever see another TDK anytime soon.
 
But every problem is not solved. SHIELD is gone for now and HYDRA still remains. The world is scarred from the wars and disasters that HYDRA was secretly responsible for creating over 70 years. Hell, there are probably still HYDRA politicians in Washington. And Steve still hasn't gotten to officially reunite with Bucky yet.

Exactly. It's a pyrrhic victory. SHIELD's darkest secrets are out in the open, in Edward Snowden fashion. Business is hardly back to normal in Washington.

And Steve is going after Bucky, Natasha is hounded by congressional hearings and facing possible time for her crimes, and Nick has gone underground. No one is exactly happy.
 
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I guess we have a slightly differently definition of "character arcs". All that stuff with Pierce may have happened off screen but in the context of the film he is portrayed as a good guy for the most part, perhaps a little ruthless but no indication that he was the big bad mastermind until the turn with housekeeper. And I knew he was going to be a bad guy before hand but the movie establishes that he is kind of a likable guy before the big revelation. At least that's the effect I got. The sense of betrayal was real even though I knew it was coming. Dying may not be "character arc" but it's a very significant character development and usually means the end of an arc. Pierce may not have had an in your face/heavy handed kinda of story arc but how he is portrayed/perceived by other characters and the audience under goes a change/evolution throughout the story which is intended by the storytellers. I see that as an "arc", movement of the character. The way you frame these arguments it almost makes me think you haven't see the movie or just wasn't interested or paying attention.

I watched the movie, paid attention, and I knew that pierce was a bad guy fromhis first scene onwards. Nobody was surprised when he killed his housekeeper.
 
CA:TWS is much more comparable to MoS than to TDK.

They both rely on a magic USB stick to resolve their climaxes :-)
 
To me, the only people who had significant characters arcs in Winter Soldier were Nick Fury and Black Widow. Captain American was always hesitant about what Shield was doing and his suspicions were realized with Hydra. Pierce was always a bad guy...it's as simple as that. Falcon was always a good guy who is willing to do the right thing. Even the Winter Soldier's arc didn't really start until near the end of the film. Fury always trusted in Shield until the attempt on his life and it seems Black Widow is always confused. That's my take on the character arcs in CA:WS.

In TDK, however, most of the characters has significant character arcs. Batman started off as the savior, then trusted in Harvey to take over as the savior, and ended as being Gotham's bad guy. Harvey...well, no explanation needed. Gordon went from trusting only trusting Batman to also trusting in Harvey, to abandoning his trust for Harvey and ultimate being forced to act like he didn't trust Batman. The only 2 main characters who didn't have an arc were the throw-away character (Rachel) and the main guy, Joker.

Ultimately, I think TDK's character arcs were handled better because the script was written, in part, by a man who is very cerebral and psychological...Christopher Nolan. TDK is as much of a psychological thriller as it is a crime drama as it is a superhero film.

Then you completely missed the central theme of TWS. Unlike TDK which is more about Harvey Dent, the central character in TWS is Steve Rogers. His character arc is central to the story, and it has nothing to do with him trusting SHIELD. It's about who he is. The only thing he has ever known is serving in the military. Why do you think he befriends a guy who deals with soldiers who are readjusting to civilian life?
 
To me, the only people who had significant characters arcs in Winter Soldier were Nick Fury and Black Widow. Captain American was always hesitant about what Shield was doing and his suspicions were realized with Hydra. Pierce was always a bad guy...it's as simple as that. Falcon was always a good guy who is willing to do the right thing. Even the Winter Soldier's arc didn't really start until near the end of the film. Fury always trusted in Shield until the attempt on his life and it seems Black Widow is always confused. That's my take on the character arcs in CA:WS.

In TDK, however, most of the characters has significant character arcs. Batman started off as the savior, then trusted in Harvey to take over as the savior, and ended as being Gotham's bad guy. Harvey...well, no explanation needed. Gordon went from trusting only trusting Batman to also trusting in Harvey, to abandoning his trust for Harvey and ultimate being forced to act like he didn't trust Batman. The only 2 main characters who didn't have an arc were the throw-away character (Rachel) and the main guy, Joker.

Ultimately, I think TDK's character arcs were handled better because the script was written, in part, by a man who is very cerebral and psychological...Christopher Nolan. TDK is as much of a psychological thriller as it is a crime drama as it is a superhero film.

I still feel that the whole revelation of Bucky being alive and Cap being freed from that guilt in that confrontation on the helicarrier is a very, very significant "character arc" moment for Steve. In the comics that changed decades worth of the status quo and one less demon haunting Steve and he could finally begin to start moving on. So yeah I agree with you about Fury and Widow. Falcon yeah, he's kinda just the sidekick in this one so I didn't use him as an example. I feel that from the audiences and certain characters perspectives the film/storytellers do try to portray Pierce as a kinda ambiguous in if/he or isn't he a bad guy and there is a change in his character, or shedding of a mask, turn. I see stuff like that as "arc" character movement kinda thing. It doesn't change the fact that he was always a villain, just that he stopped pretending to be a good guy. That's just the my perspective/how I view it. At least you agree that Winter Soldier has an "arc" even though it doesn't really start happening till near the final act.

I can't argue with you about TDK. There was a lot significant charcater movements going on. In the case of Dent it's very in your face. TDK is on a different level from TWS. If you ask me which is the better film overall I would say TDK. However for the pure popcorn fun perspective, I would say TWS is at the very top end of popcorn entertainment and at the entry level of the quality of TDK. I don't want to see this turn into a petty "mine is better than yours" kinda thing than doesn't reflect what is actually there in the movie. I wonder if the perception of which Characters have the more significant character arcs has more to do with built in kneejerk reactions to a possible challenge to TDK than a reflection of the actual character arcs in TWS. Maybe Widow and Fury seem more significant because it feels like they've been around longer and have been spread across more of the MCU, and Cap is still a little more obscurer to mainstream audiences and fandom hence why the arcs don't seem to have as much as an impact as say a more well established character like Batman or even Widow and Fury.

That's just my reading into this. Honestly it doesn't matter which one "wins" that's not what it's about. I'm a fan of both. I'm also a fan a things like James Bond and Indiana Jones, so TWS gets the vote by default because it has some nods to those kinda films that I really like, however TDK is up there with TWS and Casino Royale as my top three favorite films from the last decade. No question about that.
 

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