TDK vs CA: TWS

[OcStat]

Yes I'd agree with that, but you said that Fury and Widow had the biggest character arcs. Steve was the central character, and his arc dealt with dealing with who he was and what he is meant to do in this new world. This is something that all of the phase 3 films have dealt with the central character of the film.

The neat thing to me is that character arc is the natural progression from what those characters had to overcome in Avengers. And phase 3 has left us in a totally new position going into Age of Ultron.

It's one of the benefits of the shared universe the MCU has going, in my opinion.

With The Dark Knight being in a sole continuity trilogy on the other hand; let them approach a narrative that would have been hard to do otherwise; the retirement phase of the character. And the ending of the movie where Bruce gets to do something other than be Batman indefinitely.

I don't feel Steve had much of a character arc despite questioning his role in the world. He basically started the film with a suspicious mindset and that mindset persisted throughout until he found out about Hydra. It would've been more of an arc if he were unquestionably loyal to Shield THEN started becoming suspicious.

Bruce, on the other hand, went from being the hero of Gotham to being the villain. That's quite the character arc.

Rogers can't start off the movie unquestionably loyal because he's had reason to feel suspect since Avengers. I think it is more about will or won't he chose to adapt to Fury's... the 21st Centuries, way of thinking.

Wayne chooses to be percepted as a villain because he's the hero, trumping everything his villains tried to do. Yeah, it's pretty kick ass.

 

[PacificBoy]

I don't feel Steve had much of a character arc despite questioning his role in the world. He basically started the film with a suspicious mindset and that mindset persisted throughout until he found out about Hydra. It would've been more of an arc if he were unquestionably loyal to Shield THEN started becoming suspicious.

Bruce, on the other hand, went from being the hero of Gotham to being the villain. That's quite the character arc.

Doesn't Steve go through that as well? From being a publicly acclaimed hero to a suspected fugitive on the run.

 

[jmc]

Oh, the intention is there, but intention isn´t everything.

The genre classification exists in order to present information to the viewer regarding the nature of the film. That classification should be based upon the elements that better define the film. In this case, i don´t think the term "political thriller" is the best we can find to describe the nature of this movie to someone.

The action, fantasy and sci-fi elements are so heavily present in this movie that the room left for the development of political and espionage themes is very, very, very small.

If you want to find a subgenre for this movie, you can call it a political thriller, though i think the movie is a very poor representation of what a political thriller is all about.

I don't deny that Winter Soldier is lightweight when it comes to tackling the themes in the film, it is covered in a superhero coating after all. However, the themes are present and shouldn't be dismissed simply because they don't go into any great depths or because an element of fantasy surrounds them. The level to which themes are explored doesn't necessarily negate the fact the film has elements shared by other movies of a particular genre that were intentionally put in place. Now does it make the film part of said genre? Is a movie that steps outside its boundaries now something else? Does said film belong in its own category? Frankly that's a subjective thing, if a movie has one foot in each area then there really is no right or wrong opinion. The thing to also consider is that even if it's not a political thriller in the traditional sense it certainly feels like one, which was the overall goal with this movie. If people walk away thinking they just saw a hell of a spy flick then no amount or arguing about what is and isn't a political thriller is going change that. Thing to remember is genre is a very loose concept, nothing about a particular genre is really set in stone, we can have comedic-westerns like Lone Ranger, horror musicals like Sweeney Todd, or superhero crime dramas like The Dark Knight.

 

[DorkyFresh]

Rogers can't start off the movie unquestionably loyal because he's had reason to feel suspect since Avengers. I think it is more about will or won't he chose to adapt to Fury's... the 21st Centuries, way of thinking.

Yeah I realize that he already had his suspicions from the Avengers, but I was just illustrating that it would've been a significantly bigger arc had he been unquestionably loyal in the beginning of 'the Winter Soldier'.

Wayne chooses to be percepted as a villain because he's the hero, trumping everything his villains tried to do. Yeah, it's pretty kick ass.

Hehe yes...yes it is.

Doesn't Steve go through that as well? From being a publicly acclaimed hero to a suspected fugitive on the run.

The difference being that Captain American didn't CHOOSE to be labeled as a fugitive, while Batman did.

 

[PacificBoy]

The difference being that Captain American didn't CHOOSE to be labeled as a fugitive, while Batman did.

True that, although I think in similar fashion, Cap chose to give up his status, and more, (see the 'price of freedom' speech) to bring down the helicarriers. But I agree here in that Bat's choice is the more powerfully realized one.

Nolan really knows how to end his movies.

 

[DorkyFresh]

Yeah I'll admit it's a similar fashion. I'm sure Pierce's threat warned Cap that he was about to become the "enemy" of SHIELD and Cap STILL chose to go against them...but as you said, Batman's choice is more powerful because the conflict was already over when he made his decision. He chose to be the enemy despite everything being resolved AND his own personal motivations for wanting to stop being Batman.

 

[Dispatch Ninja]

Tws for me, and I prefer DC movies to marvel. The only thing tdk has over tws imo is ledger's performance as the joker.

 

[DA_Champion]

Tthe new great logical fallacy in CBM discussions is that Ledger's performance as the joker is the only real strength of TDK.

 

[Shikamaru]

New? I've been hearing that since the '08 days.

 

[Marvin]

I personally prefer Ironman to TWS in terms of the marvel front, I'm curious if anyone else at this point.

As for this current topic, when I compare a TWS to it's non cbm equivalent in the ilk of the Bourne films(namely the last one cause it's not so much about memory) with their super soldier guy, the marvel film falls short for me personally in that it, for lack of a better word, falls back on getting mighty colourful and light instead of committing. All intended I'm sure, but it is what it is.
This similar phenomena occurring in TFA.

I'd say the same thing happens in Batman Begins. There was talk of Serpico and French Connection and even ninja films....all present but not anywhere near as strong as in those pure films. Gordon story as Serpico lol. Of course in the year one book, that argument can be made but the film really didn't commit. I'm sure the cap comics vs the films have the same situation.

Now TDK suffered no such shortcomings imo when it comes to how it measures up to cross genre it's apping, with the exception of maybe the mob stuff; That got decidedly comicbook in places. TDK experience for me and no doubt for much of the audience wasn't so far removed from watching a Heat like michael mann crime thriller. I think this execution may have been the crux of the audience response to the film. They pulled it off if you will. The minute a dead body slammed against the window to the mayors office. I personally don't think TWS strays far enough away from the Marvel Studios vibe to accomplish this. It takes solid steps(see the maid scene). Maybe next time.
Shows like Alias or Nikita to lesser degree would be what I would hope for.

All that probably made no sense but points for trying.

 

[Tony Stark]

I don't feel Steve had much of a character arc despite questioning his role in the world. He basically started the film with a suspicious mindset and that mindset persisted throughout until he found out about Hydra. It would've been more of an arc if he were unquestionably loyal to Shield THEN started becoming suspicious.

Bruce, on the other hand, went from being the hero of Gotham to being the villain. That's quite the character arc.

Um no, that was not Steve's character arc. You are forcing Widow's character arc on Steve.

Steve's character arc is that the only thing he has known is serving and he is not used to serving under conditions where things are kept from him, and he is lied to, hence his scene with Fury complaining about "compartmentalization".

It's about who he is? is he still relevant? if he wasn't captain America what would he do? when he discovers the truth he knows that if he doesn't stop it no one will, then they throw in the curveball of his best friend being the enemy.

 

[Human Torch]

One interesting thing both films have in common: Both heroes threaten to have a bad guy thrown off a roof,only for said bad guy not to believe he'll actually do it.(In both cases,it does happen with non lethal results.)

 

[Victarion]

Tthe new great logical fallacy in CBM discussions is that Ledger's performance as the joker is the only real strength of TDK.

For me its not Ledger's performance. It's how the character's written: vicious, calculating with a cruel sense of humor.

 

[DA_Champion]

For me its not Ledger's performance. It's how the character's written: vicious, calculating with a cruel sense of humor.

The second best CBM villain is, in many respects, two-face.

More than that, the Joker is so perfectly integrated into TDK story that it simply doesn't make sense to remove him and say he's the best part. In contrast, Hydra is nit well integrated into TWS, it is shoehorned. Many other organizations could havd played the same role.

 

[seishin87]

The second best CBM villain is, in many respects, two-face.

More than that, the Joker is so perfectly integrated into TDK story that it simply doesn't make sense to remove him and say he's the best part. In contrast, Hydra is nit well integrated into TWS, it is shoehorned. Many other organizations could havd played the same role.

You see don't let the petty "vs" mentality get to you. Don't allow absurd statements about TDK to cause you to say absurd kneejerk things about HYDRA being shoehorned in the plot of the TWS. The only thing a statement like that to me says is that you just aren't as invested/aware of the Cap/SHIELD mythos/stories. HYDRA is a big arch in the comics for Cap and perhaps more so SHIELD/Fury. Aside from the comics there's also what's already been established in the MUC, with seeds and foreshadowing in TFA, The Avengers and AoS. What other organizations could they use? There's AIM, Roxxon, The Ten Rings, but none of those organizations at least from how they've been portrayed in the MCU could have filled the role they intended with HYDRA. A better example of shoehorning characters/organizations into a story is TDKR which essentially shoehorns the LoS into Knightfall. Being familiar with the comics of both I'd say that feels like more of a stretch than HYDRA in TWS, although personally I don't have a problem with either films portrayal.

 

[Victarion]

We aren't debating this (the thread is TDK vs CA:TWS), but you don't deliver a major blow to a massive terrorist organization without expecting some form of retribution. Especially when that retribution comes in a somewhat familiar form (economics).

You have to be realistic about these things. However, I don't read the comics, so my perspective on the league (and, indeed the influences on the TDKT) is probably not as informed as your own.

 

[OcStat]

In The Dark Knight Trilogy, that retribution took it's time to build from the first film to the last, and Batman had things he needed to experience along the way.

I can guarantee there will be retribution for the dismantling of SHIELD, and the fracturing of Hydra. Just a matter of time. This reworked the whole status quo for the MCU.

 

[Victarion]

In that sense you could say CA:TWS is the TDK for the MCU.

 

[The_Manhunter]

The Dark Knight. Cap 2 was really good but I think we all should sit down and watch Nolan's masterpiece again (myself included).

 

[Space Ghost]

Just rewatched it not too long ago. Best CB movies outside GL and Batman Forever.

 

[OcStat]

In that sense you could say CA:TWS is the TDK for the MCU.

So far. One can only imagine what Age of Ultron will bring.

 

[DA_Champion]

You see don't let the petty "vs" mentality get to you. Don't allow absurd statements about TDK to cause you to say absurd kneejerk things about HYDRA being shoehorned in the plot of the TWS. The only thing a statement like that to me says is that you just aren't as invested/aware of the Cap/SHIELD mythos/stories. HYDRA is a big arch in the comics for Cap and perhaps more so SHIELD/Fury. Aside from the comics there's also what's already been established in the MUC, with seeds and foreshadowing in TFA, The Avengers and AoS. What other organizations could they use? There's AIM, Roxxon, The Ten Rings, but none of those organizations at least from how they've been portrayed in the MCU could have filled the role they intended with HYDRA. A better example of shoehorning characters/organizations into a story is TDKR which essentially shoehorns the LoS into Knightfall. Being familiar with the comics of both I'd say that feels like more of a stretch than HYDRA in TWS, although personally I don't have a problem with either films portrayal.

1) If Hydra is so quintessential they should build it up properly, rather than just present it in a manner that doesn't make sense and expect everybody to care. The Joker for example was not "shoehorned" into TDK, though you're right that LoS/Talia were shoehorned into TDKR. That's part of why the latter is a lesser movie, closer to Cap 2 than to TDK.
2) ~99% of Cap 2 viewers don't read Cap comics. They're irrelevant to the discussion, because we're discussing these movies as movies, not whether or not they're faithful to the comics.
3) This article from the Washington Post elaborates on my principle critique of CA:TWS, that the shoehorning of Hydra onto the plot has the effect of totally undermining the political message of the film, and replacing it with American patriotic jingoism.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...n-america-the-winter-soldier-gets-very-wrong/

Similarly, revealing that Hydra is the author of S.H.I.E.L.D.’s misfortunes simultaneously creates a connection between the first “Captain America” movie and the second, and undermines the movie’s critique of the intelligence community. If S.H.I.E.L.D. did not actually reach the conclusion that it needs to start preventative killings of Americans on its own, than the organization is, to a certain extent, exonerated. All of its terrible decisions can be blamed on Hydra, rather than on its own internal culture or paranoid approach to security.
And “Captain America: The Winter Soldier” returns time and time again to the idea that the biggest issue in national security is who controls the apparatus, rather than whether we should use certain technologies or techniques at all. ”What if Pakistan marched into Mumbai, and you knew they were going to drag your daughters into a soccer stadium and shoot them, and you could just stop it. With the flip of a switch. Wouldn’t you?” Pierce asks a member of the World Security Council who is horrified at the uses to which Pierce intends to put Project Insight. “Not if it was your switch,” the man tells him.

 

[DA_Champion]

So far. One can only imagine what Age of Ultron will bring.

It will probably be better than Avengers 1 and better than Cap 2.

 

[seishin87]

Just rewatched it not too long ago. Best CB movies outside GL and Batman Forever.

You're talking about TDK right? lol j/k I know what you're trying to say...but really? Come on, be serious. I know it's pretty clear which film you prefer, but when you say absurd things like that it's pretty much the equivalent of dropping a howitzer on your own foot in terms of your overall credibility. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now and assume you're just trying be funny, rather than a deliberate attempt at trollin.

 

[seishin87]

1) If Hydra is so quintessential they should build it up properly, rather than just present it in a manner that doesn't make sense and expect everybody to care. The Joker for example was not "shoehorned" into TDK, though you're right that LoS/Talia were shoehorned into TDKR. That's part of why the latter is a lesser movie, closer to Cap 2 than to TDK.
2) ~99% of Cap 2 viewers don't read Cap comics. They're irrelevant to the discussion, because we're discussing these movies as movies, not whether or not they're faithful to the comics.
3) This article from the Washington Post elaborates on my principle critique of CA:TWS, that the shoehorning of Hydra onto the plot has the effect of totally undermining the political message of the film, and replacing it with American patriotic jingoism.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...n-america-the-winter-soldier-gets-very-wrong/

Well I think the movie is pretty clear on how it feels about the intelligence community. Replace HYDRA with some random political or corporate faction or religious fanatics somehow gaining a foothold or influence behind the scenes of an organization like the CIA, NSA, or FBI. I guess if this were any other political thriller they could have used any number of those kinda groups or ideas. But this the world of Cap/Marvel first and foremost. I think part of it is the filmmakers playing it safe and going with a more acceptable/allowable villain. It might be too much for the MCU to imply that a more viable real world group or faction where behind an infiltration of a western intelligence organization. And there's a subgroup of the conspiracy theory culture that covers the whole notion of the Nazis in the CIA/NASA. There is an actual real world case where someone integral to army intelligence was revealed to be a closeted Satanist/Neo Nazis. I've seen copies of the actual court documents and the official stance from the Military is a man is free to practice his own spirituality/religion. And this man played a big behind the scenes of the modern intelligence apparatus.

It's things like that why we should ask our selves exactly how much power do we as the public want to give up, hand over power to these people who could really be anyone, powers that involve life and death, godlike decisions. I guess the question the movie raises the question, do we even want to have that kind of switch at all? The movie perspective says no. We should not. As far them using HYDRA, again that's something that's true to the comics and especially established in the MCU with TFA, Avengers and AoS as I said earlier in my other post. They did plant seeds in TFA, the whole HYDRA sleeper killing Erskine and Phillips "How did a nazis spy get to my secret lab in your car?" to the senator. TFA never really answers that but one could take it that was the implication that perhaps HYDRA had already begun the infiltration, and don't forget their whole motto of cut off one head, two more that while cheesy in TFA is now kinda chilling seeing how things turned out.