The Amazing Spider-Man 2 The Amazing Spider-Man 2 General Discussion - - Part 83

[spideyboy_1111]

I don't like to do the whole comparing nonsense... but if Marc Webb can give me a Spider-Man movie that is half as effective/memorable as TDKR... that'd be great.

I forget.. which movie is that?

sorry, but i don't want a spidey film anywhere near that mess.. well i guess Amazing 2 was admittedly close..

 

[W/ Great Power]

Yep! I'm gonna meet Adam West, Burt Ward...and Eliza Dushku

Lucky you! I'm 2 hours away so I most likely won't go

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Treating villains in a serious manner and as a viable threat, as any leading comic book villain should be, doesn't mean they're better than the A listers. Let me make an analogy using the aforementioned Dark Knight Rises and Bane as an example; technically Bane taking all of Gotham City hostage for 5 months is worse than what Joker did to Gotham. Does that mean Bane is a better villain than the Joker? Of course not. The Joker was a deadlier threat in a different way. He hurt Batman more personally. He killed Rachel, he forced Batman to become a fugitive, he turned all of Gotham against Batman, he destroyed Harvey Dent etc. The consequences of Joker's evil had years of effects and repercussions on Batman, Gordon, Gotham etc.

My point is just because a villain is treated as a deadly threat doesn't mean they are as good or better than the A listers.



I'd call them F list. They're villains who are so comical and who have no great stories at all lol.



Writing and story telling go hand in hand with character portrayal. It's all about how the character was written. And as someone else pointed out before Electro is the only villain out of all the Spider-Man movies (I don't count Rhino because he was nothing but a glorified cheesy cameo) who had zero effect on Spider-Man as a character. He didn't learn anything from him. He didn't affect Peter in a personal way. He was a non entity who was just brought out for a couple of flashy action scenes in between being tucked up in jail where we're tortured with god awful Dr. Kafka interactions.

ugh.. this convo is going no where.. Electro should be a deadly threat (never said he shouldn't) and i do feel he was portrayed as such in the film. However, he's not (and maybe this is a better use of what both parties are trying to convey) a "compelling villain" and im not entirely sure he should be...

that also being said.. Electro SHOULDNT have an effect on his character.. he's not that kind of villain. It became so mundane and boring that Raimi gave a personal connection to every villain that the villains just became a horrible joke. Every villain should not personally effect the protagonist. Only the best should. And no Joker did not have a personal connection, but he did effect everyone because of himself being disturbing... I'm not sure what electro could have done to actually effect peter or spidey.. other than what he "sorta" did.. and hat was use science to help take down a villain.... but... they couldn't of killed anyone else off (too much death) and he surely shouldn't of been responsible for gwen.

the only thing that comes to mind is the times-square scene.. I kinda wish electro killed everyone on the stadium benches. It would have made him seem far more out of control and far more dangerous... But I honestly can't think of anything else, that's in his nature of a character that would truly leave an impact on spidey.. And i'm just not sure it's needed with this type of character.

 

[The Joker]

ugh.. this convo is going no where.. Electro should be a deadly threat (never said he shouldn't) and i do feel he was portrayed as such in the film. However, he's not (and maybe this is a better use of what both parties are trying to convey) a "compelling villain" and im not entirely sure he should be...

that also being said.. Electro SHOULDNT have an effect on his character.. he's not that kind of villain. It became so mundane and boring that Raimi gave a personal connection to ever villain that the villains just became a horrible joke. Every villain should not personally effect the protagonist. Only the best should. And no Joker did not have a personal connection, but he did effect everyone because of himself being disturbing... I'm not sure what electro could have done to actually effect peter or spidey.. other than what he "sorta" did.. and hat was use science to help take down a villain.... but... they couldn't of killed anyone else off (too much death) and he surely shouldn't of been responsible for gwen.

the only thing that comes to mind is the times-square scene.. I kinda wish electro killed everyone on the stadium benches. It would have made him seem far more out of control and far more dangerous... But I honestly can't think of anything else, that's in his nature of a character that would truly leave an impact on spidey.. And i'm just not sure it's needed with this type of character.

Electro never felt like a deadly threat, even when he was controlling the city's electricity at the end, it was all slap dash rushed. Peter and Gwen have a quick conversation on how to defeat him. Team Spidey and Gwen go to the power plant and Electro's taken down. It was all just filler to set up Goblin's arrival for Gwen's death. The Times Square scene was just a joke. One of the worst sequences in a CBM.

Every main villain should have some effect on the hero. I'm not talking about them having to know them personally beforehand either. That's not a necessity as villains like the Joker, Bane etc have shown. They can impact the hero personally without having to have known before hand. I'm talking about having an effect at all. The hero should always learn something from the villain, or be affected personally by them in some way. Otherwise the villains are just there as filler for the action scenes. Every main antagonist should be a learning curve for a hero. They say a hero is only as good as the villain they fight, and that is so true. Which is one of many reasons why these TASM movies fail so much. The villains are horrendously bad.

Not that there's anything wrong with the hero and villain knowing each other or having a personal connection before they become villains. It's actually a common trope in CBM's. The Iron Man trilogy, Thor and Loki, Batman and Ra's and Harvey Dent, Cap and the Winter Soldier, Superman and Zod etc. And yes even in Webb's movies all the villains knew Spider-Man before they became villains, even Electro with his cheesy 20 second meeting with Spidey in the street where he develops his stupid obsession with him. It's all about how they're handled that's make it work.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Electro never felt like a deadly threat, even when he was controlling the city's electricity at the end, it was all slap dash rushed. Peter and Gwen have a quick conversation on how to defeat him. Team Spidey and Gwen go to the power plant and Electro's taken down. It was all just filler to set up Goblin's arrival for Gwen's death. The Times Square scene was just a joke. One of the worst sequences in a CBM.

Every main villain should have some effect on the hero. I'm not talking about them having to know them personally beforehand either. That's not a necessity as villains like the Joker, Bane etc have shown. They can impact the hero personally without having to have known before hand. I'm talking about having an effect at all. The hero should always learn something from the villain, or be affected personally by them in some way. Otherwise the villains are just there as filler for the action scenes. Every main antagonist should be a learning curve for a hero. They say a hero is only as good as the villain they fight, and that is so true. Which is one of many reasons why these TASM movies fail so much. The villains are horrendously bad.

Not that there's anything wrong with the hero and villain knowing each other or having a personal connection before they become villains. It's actually a common trope in CBM's. The Iron Man trilogy, Thor and Loki, Batman and Ra's and Harvey Dent, Cap and the Winter Soldier, Superman and Zod etc. And yes even in Webb's movies all the villains knew Spider-Man before they became villains, even Electro with his cheesy 20 second meeting with Spidey in the street where he develops his stupid obsession with him. It's all about how they're handled that's make it work.

That's just it.. and the problem with the film. The film is marketed as Electro being the main villain, when he's really kinda not. It's Oscorp and even Harry himself. Electro has very very little (if anything) to do with the plot of the film, and was marketed as if he was the "main villain" he really was just "a villain". Electro's part served well what it should. But The focus probably should have been far more on harry/peter villain wise than anyone else. In the grand scheme of the story.. electro is just a lacky/bi-product of the real villain (osborn). Unfortunately... Harry had to have screen time divided up, and he fell short of being further fleshed out. (which in all honesty.. i found him to be the more compelling character, as well as one who could have used those deleted scenes.


Side note... anyone think Peter's Dad returning, wasn't really his dad... but chameleon/mysterio ? Im betting it was (i don't see how anyone would think bringing him back would be good for the story) and it would have either been revealed in a post-credit scene, or in the sequel.. and some one got smart.. and said "no, we are going to get backlash for this if it's not explained right away

 

[SpideyK]

TDKR wasn't ****. It simply wasn't as good as TDK, people are overreacting because of that, without realizing that TDK is pretty much... Well, hard as **** to top.

 

[W/ Great Power]

Side note... anyone think Peter's Dad returning, wasn't really his dad... but chameleon/mysterio ? Im betting it was (i don't see how anyone would think bringing him back would be good for the story) and it would have either been revealed in a post-credit scene, or in the sequel.. and some one got smart.. and said "no, we are going to get backlash for this if it's not explained right away

I'm a huge supporter of Chameleon and Mysterio being in this series, as I've said in another thread, but I don't think that was the intention with that deleted scene. There would have been something that would make it a little more obvious, in my opinion. I'm basing this off what Richard was saying about Mary and consequently dropping the responsibility line; I just don't think they would let Mysterio or Chameleon go as far as saying that word for word.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

TDKR wasn't ****. It simply wasn't as good as TDK, people are overreacting because of that, without realizing that TDK is pretty much... Well, hard as **** to top.

honestly? It's by far my least favorite comic book film since green lantern.

My boyfriend Marx is also a huge batman nolan fan, and both of us nearly left the theater. there were so many stupid decisions plot holes, and crammed needless bits that it completely dragged the film down. Surely after TDK there was no where to go but down... but I wasn't expecting that far down. massive disappointment.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I'm a huge supporter of Chameleon and Mysterio being in this series, as I've said in another thread, but I don't think that was the intention with that deleted scene. There would have been something that would make it a little more obvious, in my opinion. I'm basing this off what Richard was saying about Mary and consequently dropping the responsibility line; I just don't think they would let Mysterio or Chameleon go as far as saying that word for word.

that's the only off-putting part. I don't see where they wanted to take that story of his return otherwise. I'm glad it was cut none the less

 

[SpideyK]

honestly? It's by far my least favorite comic book film since green lantern.

My boyfriend Marx is also a huge batman nolan fan, and both of us nearly left the theater. there were so many stupid decisions plot holes, and crammed needless bits that it completely dragged the film down. Surely after TDK there was no where to go but down... but I wasn't expecting that far down. massive disappointment.

Sad to hear you feel that way.

But wow, so you prefer ASM2 to TDKR, then?

 

[The Joker]

That's just it.. and the problem with the film. The film is marketed as Electro being the main villain, when he's really kinda not. It's Oscorp and even Harry himself. Electro has very very little (if anything) to do with the plot of the film, and was marketed as if he was the "main villain" he really was just "a villain". Electro's part served well what it should. But The focus probably should have been far more on harry/peter villain wise than anyone else. In the grand scheme of the story.. electro is just a lacky/bi-product of the real villain (osborn). Unfortunately... Harry had to have screen time divided up, and he fell short of being further fleshed out. (which in all honesty.. i found him to be the more compelling character, as well as one who could have used those deleted scenes.

They had Rhino on the posters, too, and he's in for like 3 minutes as a cameo. I agree Electro never felt like a main villain but shockingly he was supposed to be. Even Webb said that. That's how they handle their main villains in this franchise.

My boyfriend Marx

Sorry, off topic here and all already with the Batman discussion, but this I must ask; you mean Marx the moderator?

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Sorry, off topic here and all already with the Batman discussion, but this I must ask; you mean Marx the moderator?

yup, we've been together for over 3 years now

 

[The Joker]

yup, we've been together for over 3 years now

Wow I had no idea. I knew you were both gay, but I didn't know you were an item.

Very belated congratulations. That would have been one for the TB back in the day lol

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Sad to hear you feel that way.

But wow, so you prefer ASM2 to TDKR, then?

in all honesty? yes. Not for the villains.. it was a mess.. but I do feel like the Gwen/Peter chemistry , the music, and the cinematography, and emotion were greater than anything TDR gave me.

I didn't care much about a single person in TDR aside from maybe Gordon and Alfred.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Wow I had no idea. I knew you were both gay, but I didn't know you were an item.

Very belated congratulations. That would have been one for the TB back in the day lol

well thank you!

haha oh i miss the TB days! the hype was so much more fun back then.

yeah i was just on a subject with Marx the other day about how 1 persons life can effect so many others... and told him how when Stan Lee finally passes... I owe the man alot... would have never gotten into comics, joined the hype, never met the hypster jspider13 who got me out to LA for college for animation/graphic design and then of course i moved back home, and found Marx. it's bizarre how much 1 person can effect you.

 

[The Joker]

haha oh i miss the TB days! the hype was so much more fun back then.

Oh yeah, I mean I still enjoy the Hype now, but 10/11 years ago back in the TB days it was way more fun. No offense to present company here (I like most of you), but the class of posters overall back then was much higher. More fun. More carefree. Better times.

A lot of those old faces are sadly gone now.

yeah i was just on a subject with Marx the other day about how 1 persons life can effect so many others... and told him how when Stan Lee finally passes... I owe the man alot... would have never gotten into comics, joined the hype, never met the hypster jspider13 who got me out to LA for college for animation/graphic design and then of course i moved back home, and found Marx. it's bizarre how much 1 person can effect you.

That's awesome. What a really nice story. Think of Stan as your fairy Godfather lol. Have you ever met him? I'd love to meet him. If he ever came to Ireland I would.

2 weeks ago I got to meet and get my photo taken with Kevin Conroy (voice of Batman) and Ernie Hudson (Winston from the Ghostbusters movies), because they came to Dublin Comic Con. But in America you have a lot more opportunities to meet celebs like that.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

honestly? It's by far my least favorite comic book film since green lantern.

My boyfriend Marx is also a huge batman nolan fan, and both of us nearly left the theater. there were so many stupid decisions plot holes, and crammed needless bits that it completely dragged the film down. Surely after TDK there was no where to go but down... but I wasn't expecting that far down. massive disappointment.

I'm sorry to hear that... I certainly enjoyed the movie for what it was and felt it at least strove for something different.

I know Marx is a big Burton fan (AND Michelle fan) so he gets a free pass. t:

 

[Daltonio]

Sad to hear you feel that way.

But wow, so you prefer ASM2 to TDKR, then?

I do too.

Even crazier, I prefer ASM2 over TDK. I've always been more into Spidey though.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Oh yeah, I mean I still enjoy the Hype now, but 10/11 years ago back in the TB days it was way more fun. No offense to present company here (I like most of you), but the class of posters overall back then was much higher. More fun. More carefree. Better times.

A lot of those old faces are sadly gone now.



That's awesome. What a really nice story. Think of Stan as your fairy Godfather lol. Have you ever met him? I'd love to meet him. If he ever came to Ireland I would.

2 weeks ago I got to meet and get my photo taken with Kevin Conroy (voice of Batman) and Ernie Hudson (Winston from the Ghostbusters movies), because they came to Dublin Comic Con. But in America you have a lot more opportunities to meet celebs like that.

indeed, miss the ole gang. But it's not just the posters.. there was less hostility and rules back then too

I've met him personally twice, and "hovered" around him another

- once at a book signing in LA
- once in my home town of ohio, won a contest and it was much more personal. Would have liked to of chatted with him more, but apparently every age group had a winner and it wasnt just me
- and hovered around him at the sideshow booth at comic con one year after he walked over to look at the stuff

I've got 2 good pics with him . its always nice meeting your idols

 

[Doctor Octopus]

I prefer Batman and Robin to ASM2.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I'm sorry to hear that... I certainly enjoyed the movie for what it was and felt it at least strove for something different.

I know Marx is a big Burton fan (AND Michelle fan) so he gets a free pass. t:

over all (and even though i love the first 2 nolan films) his batman movies are great "movies" but they just didn't have that "batman" spark. they've always been a bit too realistic for my taste. I like to consider them more "Cop Dramas" than "superhero film" if that makes since. TDK is still a masterpiece though none the less

 

[The Joker]

indeed, miss the ole gang. But it's not just the posters.. there was less hostility and rules back then too

I've met him personally twice, and "hovered" around him another

- once at a book signing in LA
- once in my home town of ohio, won a contest and it was much more personal. Would have liked to of chatted with him more, but apparently every age group had a winner and it wasnt just me
- and hovered around him at the sideshow booth at comic con one year after he walked over to look at the stuff

I've got 2 good pics with him . its always nice meeting your idols

That's why there was less rules because there was less hostility back then. Moderators didn't have to be as strict as they do nowadays. I mean we're not allowed to even compare the Webb and Raimi movies here because it gets too hostile. It was never taboo to discuss topics like that back in the day.

When arguments did break out they were usually highly entertaining. Remember your run ins with Symbiotica lol? She hated Black Cat and you loved her. Oh they were fun times.

Well that's awesome that you got to meet Stan the Man. And pics to commemorate it. I hope you told him how much he means to you. And yeah it's amazing meeting your idols, especially if you've been fans of them since childhood. Meeting Kevin Conroy was one of the best experiences of my life.

 

[SpideyK]

in all honesty? yes. Not for the villains.. it was a mess.. but I do feel like the Gwen/Peter chemistry , the music, and the cinematography, and emotion were greater than anything TDR gave me.

I didn't care much about a single person in TDR aside from maybe Gordon and Alfred.

Sounds pretty much like my thoughts. I'm not sure which one I prefer, though.

I do too.

Even crazier, I prefer ASM2 over TDK. I've always been more into Spidey though.

I'm not sure if I prefer ASM2 or TDK, yet. ASM2 is messed up but fun, while TDK is masterful, but waaaaaay too long. I know I'm beating a dead horse by saying it, but Ledger's performance carries the film so much it's not even funny. It really wouldn't be the same without him. It would be like a mere... 7.7/10, for me, if he wasn't in it.

 

[The Joker]

I always found comments like that so redundant. If you take a key great performance out of any movie of course it would hurt the movie. That's a given. What would The Godfather rate without Brando? Or The Silence of the Lambs without Hopkins? Or The Shawshank Redemption without Freeman? Or Darth Vader out of The Empire Strikes Back? etc etc. Or a more recent example Rocket Raccoon out of Guardians of the Galaxy.

Unlike in those movies, there are no stand out performances like the aforementioned ones there in TASM 2. In fact, sad as it is to say, if you took out great actors like Jamie Foxx from the movie it would actually improve it.

But all this aside, how the bad place did it end up that there is comparisons of TASM 2 to the TDK movies being made here? Two different franchises, two different characters. Not to mention millions of miles apart in terms of quality.

 

[W/ Great Power]

that's the only off-putting part. I don't see where they wanted to take that story of his return otherwise. I'm glad it was cut none the less

Agreed. I feel like with or without that deleted scene, the film provides the same result for Richard in this series: closure.

Unless they somehow bring him back for TASM3, which I think is just prolonging the storyline of his parents when they can easily focus elsewhere.