The Anti-Prequel Discussion Thread

[CGHulk]

edit.

 

[Victarion]

I dunno, that whole "I had a bad dream about my wife so I will kill ALL THE CHILDREN!" seems ludicrous to me!

You talking about the Tusken camp or the younglings? If its the former, you can imagine Anakin had some prejudices against the Tuskens from a young age. Probablly instilled by his mom/Watto/Watto's clientele and other slaves. Killing his mom caused him to act on that prejudice.

If its the younglings, look at the Tusken slaughter. Its an escalation from that.

 

[BenKenobi]

You talking about the Tusken camp or the younglings? If its the former, you can imagine Anakin had some prejudices against the Tuskens from a young age. Probablly instilled by his mom/Watto/Watto's clientele and other slaves. Killing his mom caused him to act on that prejudice.

If its the younglings, look at the Tusken slaughter. Its an escalation from that.

The thing is Anakin thinks what he's doing is right and good and he kills a bunch of kids. It's just showing huge stupidity that darth vader did not have. I mean the idea that Anakin was just kind of tricked into joining the dark side doesn't line up with what we had in the originals.

The prequels frustrate me and most other people so much because there are SO many great ideas that are just executed horribly. For one thing the opening of Revenge of the Sith is a great example. The movie begins with the last of the lighthearted adventures of Obi-Wan and Anakin but then suddenly shifts to the place Luke found himself in AT THE END of Jedi. We can't feel the power of the situation when Anakin kills a character that we barely know.

The prequels really shouldn't have tried to hide Palpatine was Sidious, it would have made him a bit scarier and made the scenes he's in with the heroes a bit more poignant. Not only that there should have been one antagonist we follow through Episodes I and II, that way Anakin ultimately murders him in III we feel the power of the decision he has just made the way we would have if Luke killed Vader in Jedi. The opening really should have just been happy upbeat music jokes and Obi-Wan and Anakin on a fun adventure we can put our hearts into. Not cutting the music until we reach the captive palpatine to build tension bring the audience back into reality a bit and show them that the happy duo have unwittingly walked into satans chambers. Little things like that would have gone a long way in making the movie better.

 

[Gianakin_]

The thing is Anakin thinks what he's doing is right and good and he kills a bunch of kids. It's just showing huge stupidity that darth vader did not have. I mean the idea that Anakin was just kind of tricked into joining the dark side doesn't line up with what we had in the originals.

He knew damn well what he did wasn't right and good. That's why he has that look on his face in the Temple and that's why he's crying when he tells Padme about the Tusken. That's also why he sheds a tear after slaughtering the Separatists.

 

[BenKenobi]

He knew damn well what he did wasn't right and good. That's why he has that look on his face in the Temple and that's why he's crying when he tells Padme about the Tusken. That's also why he sheds a tear after slaughtering the Separatists.

That doesn't change the fact he was stupid enough to get tricked into being Darth Vader. The way Obi-Wan told it in Jedi it sounded like there was this long decline, Obi-Wan spent a lot of time trying to reach out to Vader as he got worse and worse until eventually he just lost all faith that the man he once knew and loved even existed, it was like an addiction. Vader even references the addictive aspect when he somberly says "it's too late for me...son" or when he says "You don't know the power of the Darkside, I must obey my master". Here Palpatine got Anakin's attention with a story about how he can save people from dying and how he knew everything his master taught him. Then he specifically says, "the power to cheat death has been lost for...".

Not to mention the movie was shot with Anakins primary motives being a change of heart believing the Jedi were the true evil in the galaxy (Hense the part where palpatine tells him he's fore-filled his destiny, "From my point of view the Jedi are evil", all the scenes building tension between Anakin and the Jedi, the Jedi asking him to spy on his friend). Then in reshoots and editing Lucas wanted to change Padme to the primary motive.

 

[Gianakin_]

The way Obi-Wan told it in Jedi it sounded like there was this long decline, Obi-Wan spent a lot of time trying to reach out to Vader as he got worse and worse until eventually he just lost all faith that the man he once knew and loved even existed, it was like an addiction.

So you had expectations and the Prequels didn't go like you had anticipated.

Vader even references the addictive aspect when he somberly says "it's too late for me...son" or when he says "You don't know the power of the Darkside, I must obey my master".

Nothing in RotS negates that. He fell and he was never able to go back after Padme died.

Here Palpatine got Anakin's attention with a story about how he can save people from dying and how he knew everything his master taught him. Then he specifically says, "the power to cheat death has been lost for...".

While that is the strongest argument for Anakin's stupidity, he was so desperate that he was willing to try anything. False hopes and all that.

Not to mention the movie was shot with Anakins primary motives being a change of heart believing the Jedi were the true evil in the galaxy (Hense the part where palpatine tells him he's fore-filled his destiny, "From my point of view the Jedi are evil", all the scenes building tension between Anakin and the Jedi, the Jedi asking him to spy on his friend). Then in reshoots and editing Lucas wanted to change Padme to the primary motive.

I think both motives were equally important to Anakin. Padme was the primary one, indeed, but the "Jedi are evil" thing (a bit too much to call them evil) served to reduce Anakin's 2nd thoughts to destroy the Order. Not mutually exclusive.

 

[BenKenobi]

So you had expectations and the Prequels didn't go like you had anticipated.

No I was a little kid, and I can't remember if I'd even finished watching return of the Jedi when this came out. It wasn't until I got older and I thought "wait a minute this doesn't really match up". And the glaring problem there, is if Lucas had this whole outline of what happened from the conversations in the Originals, why didn't he just do the easy and logical approach and use it as a guideline?

Nothing in RotS negates that. He fell and he was never able to go back after Padme died.

But Leia remembers her being alive in Return of the Jedi and he doesn't seem like he got tricked into doing this. He's acting like someone who was greedy and selfish and is now only a shell of the good man he once was. Still doesn't add up.

I think both motives were equally important to Anakin. Padme was the primary one, indeed, but the "Jedi are evil" thing (a bit too much to call them evil) served to reduce Anakin's 2nd thoughts to destroy the Order. Not mutually exclusive.

Okay thats all fine, but Darth Vader didn't think "the Jedi were evil" when he was choking people out, or when he cut his sons hand off. Not to mention, why did Darth Vader get a strategic military mind, a british accent, and a greatly improved vocabulary between films. I mean Anakin Skywalker is NOTHING like Darth Vader.

 

[Gianakin_]

No I was a little kid, and I can't remember if I'd even finished watching return of the Jedi when this came out. It wasn't until I got older and I thought "wait a minute this doesn't really match up".

Fair enough.

And the glaring problem there, is if Lucas had this whole outline of what happened from the conversations in the Originals, why didn't he just do the easy and logical approach and use it as a guideline?

Changed his mind? Wanted to say different things? Lied? Lucas does the latter a lot.

But Leia remembers her being alive in Return of the Jedi and he doesn't seem like he got tricked into doing this. He's acting like someone who was greedy and selfish and is now only a shell of the good man he once was. Still doesn't add up.

The mom being alive is a plot hole. It can be justified, but poorly. The rest adds up just fine for me, it doesn't because you interpret the OT's info on Vader/Anakin differently. Which is fair enough.

Okay thats all fine, but Darth Vader didn't think "the Jedi were evil" when he was choking people out, or when he cut his sons hand off. Not to mention, why did Darth Vader get a strategic military mind, a british accent, and a greatly improved vocabulary between films. I mean Anakin Skywalker is NOTHING like Darth Vader.

Vader had a british accent? In fact, I'd say that Hayden did a great job at kinda imitating JEJ's non-british/non-american accent. And if you're gonna mention vocabulary... ok, he grew older and read books. You can see how this is going a bit too far in terms of criticism, right? Not that I think Vader talked like a scholar or something.

As for the choking and the hand chopping, like I said, he was lost to the Dark Side. He was far gone. After he killed Windu there was no escape.

 

[BenKenobi]

Vader had a british accent? In fact, I'd say that Hayden did a great job at kinda imitating JEJ's non-british/non-american accent. And if you're gonna mention vocabulary... ok, he grew older and read books. You can see how this is going a bit too far in terms of criticism, right? Not that I think Vader talked like a scholar or something.

I guess if it works for you, but for me and a lot of other fans. Anakin really doesn't seem like Vader. Honestly could you picture Hayden pointing at a screen and exclaiming "that is the system". Not to mention he just seemed like a military genius and very spiritual man.

 

[Eros]

He knew damn well what he did wasn't right and good. That's why he has that look on his face in the Temple and that's why he's crying when he tells Padme about the Tusken. That's also why he sheds a tear after slaughtering the Separatists.

which would of been portrayed better, with better acting,direction,Dialogue. Alot of things about the prequels would of been made more sense, if the Lucas new how to direct actors and not focus on cgi or how the green screen looks in this scene. I dont blame Hayden, Lucas ruined any post star wars career he could of had, I honestly feel sorry for Him.

 

[Gianakin_]

That is something I cannot argue with. I partially agree and disagree.

 

[Gianakin_]

I guess if it works for you, but for me and a lot of other fans. Anakin really doesn't seem like Vader. Honestly could you picture Hayden pointing at a screen and exclaiming "that is the system". Not to mention he just seemed like a military genius and very spiritual man.

Yes, honestly, I can. It's 18 years between movies, I don't need to make a logical leap to get from RotS Vader to ANH one.

 

[BenKenobi]

Yes, honestly, I can. It's 18 years between movies, I don't need to make a logical leap to get from RotS Vader to ANH one.

Irregardless theres just so many negative things you can say about the prequels that you can't about the originals and the fact that these bad things from the prequels are the only thing that has made it into pop culture (Jar Jar, Vaders NO) that it's a bit of a stretch to say these movies were brilliant or well done. I haven't even touched base upon how absolutely pointless the Clone Wars were, like why did they need to happen?

Palpatine needed the separatist threat in order to get an army of the republic. Okay fair enough, but once the threat was established and he had his army, if all he was going to do was use it to insite martial law, then why not just do it then and there? Also Palpatine already ordered that army to be made over 10 years ago, why not just claim his damn army and take over the defenseless senate? Also if there was no military, why do they need the Clone Army at all? He's already got all of those battle droids, we saw from Naboo that conquering a people without an organized military with those things isn't all that difficult.

In addition the whole plot of Attack of the Clones is basically a huge plot hole. Dooku (indirectly Sidious) is attempting to assassinate Padme because she opposes the military creation act. Well wouldn't an idiot like her work to their advantage? As I said early if theres no military to stop the Seperatists, who intend to build a Death Star and act just like the Empire, then they could conquer the galaxy easily. The next plot hole we are immediately given is when Padme says she thinks Count Dooku was behind the attack. What possible logic is there? If she really thinks the Separatists wish to become violent, then why would they want the idiot who's trying to stop the Republic from being able to defend itself dead? That is like a country declaring war on another, but making sure they have Nukes and a well trained military to defend themselves first.

I mean look at how the war ended, Palpatine just took his army and told them to kill their Jedi leaders, and there was absolutely no reason he could not have done this at the beginning of the war. He could have executed order 66, killed most of the Jedi, announced a peace treaty with Dooku, used the separatist armies and the clones to take over the galaxy and ruled with Dooku by his side. Why did this not happen? Because the movies were contrived to put Anakin into the Darth Vader and suit Lucas had no one around him to tell him Palpatines plan made no sense.

And don't try to defend the whole thing with whatever the book or the video games or the comics have to say about this because I'm not talking about that. Those are all works that were put together from scrapped ideas and different writers, I'm talking about the movies as they stand.

 

[ClarkLuther55]

Don't understand the complaints about Anakin being stupid for getting "tricked" into becoming Darth Vader. It's in keeping with Original Trilogy canon.

Lest anyone forget, Palpatine expected to convert Luke after a mere few minutes of taunting. Luke had NO allegiance to Palpatine, no history of repressed anger and resentment comparable to what Anakin grew up with. Palpatine's offer to Luke basically boiled down to "I'm gonna kill your friends now so you might as well side with the winners!" Compared to that, Anakin's seduction was FAR more believable. No wonder it worked on him, and not on Luke (although even Luke still came VERY close to falling to the Dark Side).

ROTS Palpatine is a tempter and manipulator. ROTJ Palpatine is a raving maniac.

The Original Trilogy makes it clear that using the Force is a two way street. Just as a person can use the Force, the Force can take over a person. Which was why Yoda was so big on the idea that once you fell to the Dark Side, "forever will it dominate your destiny." Falling to the Dark Side is virtually demonic possession, which a person becomes vulnerable to when he allows his anger to go uncontrolled.

 

[ClarkLuther55]

People can think whatever they want about the quality of the movies, but arguments based on the logic of the movies should be supported by the facts.

Also Palpatine already ordered that army to be made over 10 years ago, why not just claim his damn army and take over the defenseless senate?

The first batch of clones only came online during AOTC.

Also if there was no military, why do they need the Clone Army at all? He's already got all of those battle droids, we saw from Naboo that conquering a people without an organized military with those things isn't all that difficult.

There's no unified galactic army, but the Republic apparently had a lot of power that it wasn't willing to use to good effect. The Trade Federation was scared of the Republic in TPM, and ended up facing prosecution after that movie.

In addition the whole plot of Attack of the Clones is basically a huge plot hole. Dooku (indirectly Sidious) is attempting to assassinate Padme because she opposes the military creation act. Well wouldn't an idiot like her work to their advantage?

Padme wanted a peaceful resolution to the issue, which would probably result in the Separatists laying down their arms and talking things out as members of the Republic. After all, she is a loyal Republic Senator. I seriously doubt "let them secede" was her agenda.

As I said early if theres no military to stop the Seperatists, who intend to build a Death Star and act just like the Empire, then they could conquer the galaxy easily.

The Separatists don't act like the Empire though. They're Separatists. They're not even united, but call themselves the "Confederacy." They don't want the whole galaxy, they want to be independent and take what parts of it they can.

I mean look at how the war ended, Palpatine just took his army and told them to kill their Jedi leaders, and there was absolutely no reason he could not have done this at the beginning of the war.

The war destroyed the powerful corporate armies that would resist his central dictatorship. It built up the Republic Army that turned into the Imperial army. It changed the Republic socially and politically, so that the people would willingly embrace Palpatine when he declared himself the new dictator.

He could have executed order 66, killed most of the Jedi, announced a peace treaty with Dooku,

Peace treaty with Dooku? That's not uniting the galaxy under his own rule. That's giving half of it away.

And don't try to defend the whole thing with whatever the book or the video games or the comics have to say about this because I'm not talking about that. Those are all works that were put together from scrapped ideas and different writers, I'm talking about the movies as they stand.

All of it's in the movies, like I explained above.

 

[Gianakin_]

Irregardless theres just so many negative things you can say about the prequels that you can't about the originals and the fact that these bad things from the prequels are the only thing that has made it into pop culture (Jar Jar, Vaders NO) that it's a bit of a stretch to say these movies were brilliant or well done. I haven't even touched base upon how absolutely pointless the Clone Wars were, like why did they need to happen?

YOU can say about the Prequels. Like I've demonstrated and stated more than once, I don't see those problems. So yeah.

 

[BenKenobi]

People can think whatever they want about the quality of the movies, but arguments based on the logic of the movies should be supported by the facts.

All of that was supported by facts.

The first batch of clones only came online during AOTC.

This is never mentioned in the movie as it stands. Regardless however, then why couldn't Palpatine just pose as a Jedi and collect his army? Even in the original script the name was Sido dias (Sidious) and it was to be revealed in Episode III, but the name was changed to Sifo because of a typo and Lucas rolled with it. Also why didn't he execute Order 66 or whatever when Dooku was going to kill all of the Jedi in the Arena? Theres just so many ways you can point out how pointless the Clone Wars were.

There's no unified galactic army, but the Republic apparently had a lot of power that it wasn't willing to use to good effect. The Trade Federation was scared of the Republic in TPM, and ended up facing prosecution after that movie.

Again not explained in the movie. How does the Republic have power without an Army? How many times in history has that worked out?

Padme wanted a peaceful resolution to the issue, which would probably result in the Separatists laying down their arms and talking things out as members of the Republic. After all, she is a loyal Republic Senator. I seriously doubt "let them secede" was her agenda.

Padme wanted a peaceful resolution...and the republic at that time had no army, while the Separatists were amassing a massive droid army, lead by a group of people who wanted to build a "Death Star". Why didn't Palpatine just use the droid army to take over the defenseless republic (and yes they were defenseless, this was the whole point of the emergency powers and the immediate approval of the army.) Not to mention why would Padme assume Dooku was the one trying to kill her? As I said before he does not know that Dooku is in on Palpatines scheme or that Palpatine is evil. If she really thinks this guy wants war, then why would she think he would be a target, when she is currently opposing the creation of a military. Her intentions may have been peace, but that doesn't change the fact she was blocking the bill, she even complained to Anakin about how she "didn't fight to stop the military creation act..." That whole thing defies all logic.

The Separatists don't act like the Empire though. They're Separatists. They're not even united, but call themselves the "Confederacy." They don't want the whole galaxy, they want to be independent and take what parts of it they can.

This isn't in the movies, in the movies they are a group of bad guys who want to build a death star, have a uniform stoic army, and are lead by the sith and an evil cyborg...they are pretty much the empire. Also what are you talking about, they stormed the capital and took the leader of the Republic hostage, they are called the Confederacy but all else in the movie indicates otherwise.

The war destroyed the powerful corporate armies that would resist his central dictatorship. It built up the Republic Army that turned into the Imperial army. It changed the Republic socially and politically, so that the people would willingly embrace Palpatine when he declared himself the new dictator.

These people were trying to build a Death Star and they attacked the capital and kidnapped it's leader, you think they weren't trying to control the galaxy? Also what were Dooku's motives, he was obviously under the impression he would be Palpatine's right hand man. He could have easily just done what Anakin did and killed all of those idiots who were following this hooded hologram they don't know in another stupid scheme.

Peace treaty with Dooku? That's not uniting the galaxy under his own rule. That's giving half of it away.

Palpatine is Darth Sidious, he's fighting a war with himself, signing a treaty with his apprentice is not giving half of it away, he's still in charge, only this way he has both of his armies to over throw the galaxy. It's a much simpler solution than fighting a 3 year long war with himself.

All of it's in the movies, like I explained above.

Almost none of that was, maybe in the novelizations, but in the movies as they stand none of this is explained.

 

[BenKenobi]

YOU can say about the Prequels. Like I've demonstrated and stated more than once, I don't see those problems. So yeah.

You have the right to an opinion, however the majority of critics and the general audience above the age of 14, panned them. From a strictly critical point of view the movies are very lazily made aside for the special effects aspect, and from a strictly critical perspective the story is also subpar. No if you are really going to point to your right to opinion to like the prequels in a threat called "The Anti-Prequel Discussion Thread", then why are you even posting in it? You may disagree with the popular consensus but obviously we do not, so theres no point in posting to say you still have the right to like something we don't, rather than discussing it.

 

[ClarkLuther55]

This is never mentioned in the movie as it stands.

Uh, yes it was. It was stated onscreen that it takes ten years to grow the clones to adulthood, even with accelerated aging. We see many clones still at child age, and undergoing training and education. They even said "200,000 units are ready, with a million more well on the way."

The first wave of the clone army was barely getting operational during the movie. This was no momentary thing, but something that was hammered through quite clearly.

For someone who complains about the movie so much and seems so sure of yourself, you really don't seem to understand what was going on.

Regardless however, then why couldn't Palpatine just pose as a Jedi and collect his army?

Who says he couldn't collect his own army? Obi-Wan discovered it, by accident and before it was fully ready. The events of the movie made it so that the Jedi did the collecting for him. The war got started a bit earlier than he had planned due to Anakin and Obi-Wan's meddling.

Also why didn't he execute Order 66 or whatever when Dooku was going to kill all of the Jedi in the Arena? Theres just so many ways you can point out how pointless the Clone Wars were.

The Clone Wars were supposed to drag on, in order to destroy all obstacles to Palpatine's total rule, and unite the galaxy with fear and hatred so that they'd openly embrace his militaristic dictatorship. That was only one of the main themes of ROTS.

"So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause."

Again not explained in the movie. How does the Republic have power without an Army? How many times in history has that worked out?

Obviously they have other forces, like the Jedi. And that ship that carried the Jedi in the beginning. And all the military forces for the separate planets, of which Naboo's was considered a weak one. They just didn't have a unified federal army that they were willing to deploy efficiently.

Why didn't Palpatine just use the droid army to take over the defenseless republic

The droid army works for greedy corporate interests. The Separatists do NOT want to conquer the galaxy, only take what parts of it they can before seceding.

The Trade Federation and those other corporations were allied with Palpatine's secret Sith identity, but he couldn't even appear to them in person, only as a hologram. Do you think that's what Palpatine wants? To hide away and probably take lots of crap in his real identity, while getting in only some occasional words as a hologram?

Palpatine wants total control of the entire galaxy, as the god emperor of everything.

Not to mention why would Padme assume Dooku was the one trying to kill her? As I said before he does not know that Dooku is in on Palpatines scheme or that Palpatine is evil.

Dooku wants to fan political extremism and rile people up to secede from the Republic. Padme was a voice of reason who wanted to lower the level of conflict and get everyone to peacefully talk their issues out, AS members of the Republic. It's not that hard to see why she might be an obstacle to his agenda.

It's not like extremists have ever assassinated opposing or moderate politicians in real life, right?

This isn't in the movies, in the movies they are a group of bad guys who want to build a death star, have a uniform stoic army, and are lead by the sith and an evil cyborg...they are pretty much the empire.

So you ignore the very name Separatists, as well as all the mentions about their objective to "secede," and just insist again that you are right without any evidence? Because clearly, having droid soldiers (which the Empire didn't use) or big weapons makes them the Empire?

I mean, America had nukes, and the Soviets had nukes, so Soviet = American going by this logic, right?

You can't just put your foot down and insist again on things like that while expecting people to just accept your word as complete truth. I see why the others in this thread have had a problem with you insisting on your opinions as fact. Act like that and we have nothing to talk about.

These people were trying to build a Death Star and they attacked the capital and kidnapped it's leader, you think they weren't trying to control the galaxy?

Kidnapping a leader = "control the galaxy"?

Why didn't they occupy Coruscant? Why didn't they try to conquer everything, instead of "secede" as they kept saying they were?

If you're going to talk about the facts of the movie, you have to deal with the facts. You do not get to customize your own version of things.

Also what were Dooku's motives, he was obviously under the impression he would be Palpatine's right hand man. He could have easily just done what Anakin did and killed all of those idiots who were following this hooded hologram they don't know in another stupid scheme.

So he kills off all the Confederate leaders and outs himself as a traitor...before the war was over and Palpatine was ready to declare himself Emperor?

Palpatine is Darth Sidious, he's fighting a war with himself, signing a treaty with his apprentice is not giving half of it away, he's still in charge, only this way he has both of his armies to over throw the galaxy. It's a much simpler solution than fighting a 3 year long war with himself.

So he gives away half the galaxy to his apprentice and a bunch of corporate jerks who he doesn't have complete control over, thus making himself look like a weak and pathetic Chancellor and probably getting thrown out of office. Awesome.

EDIT: Make no mistake about it, a "peace treaty" would be a clear Separatist victory and a Republic defeat, since the Republic's entire objective is to remain whole. This would make Palpatine look like a weakling and a loser, not the hero who people happily accepted as their new emperor.

Also, the Senate and not the Chancellor himself would have to approve a treaty. That's the way it is in real life and in TPM. So your idea is for all the loyal Republic Senators to just surrendur and give up half the Repubic? Why would they agree to that?

Almost none of that was, maybe in the novelizations, but in the movies as they stand none of this is explained.

Funny, because I've never read any of the novelizations. Sounds like this "novelization" thing is just your easy way of dismissing anybody you don't agree with.

The others were right. I can see that you're just a person with strong opinions that he insists are facts, in defiance of the actual facts. Pretty much a waste of time to talk to you if you carry on like this.

 

[ClarkLuther55]

You have the right to an opinion, however the majority of critics and the general audience above the age of 14, panned them.

Again with your personally customized version of the facts.

None of the prequels scored below 50% on Rotten Tomatoes.

You have provided absolutely no source to show that the "majority" of the general audience hated the movies.

We do know that all of the prequels did very well at the box office, with big openings and small weekend-to-weekend drops.

A Gallup poll from 1999 resulted in almost 80% of people saying that TPM was good or great.

AOTC received an average grade of "A-" from CinemaScore audience exit polling. According to Jonathan Bowen, a published author who has written nonfiction books about the prequels, TPM received a CinemaScore grade of "A" and ROTS got a grade of "A+"

Those are the facts, with actual sources to back them up. Which isn't so strange, since if the "majority" of the people hated the movies, they wouldn't make so much money.

Lots of vocal people on the internet hate the prequels, but equating them with the mainstream majority is basically saying that scifi forums represent the mainstream. As someone who posts on forums myself, I'm honest enough with myself to know that's not true at all.

Are you going to just ignore all of the above and repeat your previously stated opinion?

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

This page is filled with so much ownage I might just try and have sex with it.

 

[DarKush]

Don't understand the complaints about Anakin being stupid for getting "tricked" into becoming Darth Vader. It's in keeping with Original Trilogy canon.

Lest anyone forget, Palpatine expected to convert Luke after a mere few minutes of taunting. Luke had NO allegiance to Palpatine, no history of repressed anger and resentment comparable to what Anakin grew up with. Palpatine's offer to Luke basically boiled down to "I'm gonna kill your friends now so you might as well side with the winners!" Compared to that, Anakin's seduction was FAR more believable. No wonder it worked on him, and not on Luke (although even Luke still came VERY close to falling to the Dark Side).

ROTS Palpatine is a tempter and manipulator. ROTJ Palpatine is a raving maniac.

The Original Trilogy makes it clear that using the Force is a two way street. Just as a person can use the Force, the Force can take over a person. Which was why Yoda was so big on the idea that once you fell to the Dark Side, "forever will it dominate your destiny." Falling to the Dark Side is virtually demonic possession, which a person becomes vulnerable to when he allows his anger to go uncontrolled.

Very interesting comparison between Luke and Anakin. I had never looked at it before that way. I don't agree with your take on ROTJ Palpatine however.

He wasn't a raving maniac. He was still a tempter and he was trying to goad Luke into turning to the dark side. He also offered Luke a chance to replace Vader, who up until this point had been the bane of Luke's existence, the man who had cut off his hand, the father who had killed one of his real father figures in Obi Wan (and perhaps could be charged with Owen and Beru's murders too), tortured his sister, and threatened his friends. Up until this point, Vader was the guy who haunted his dreams and Luke didn't see too fazed by the Emperor, which prompted Yoda's warning to watch out for him.

If anything ROTJ Palpatine was more of a boaster, overconfident, and really rusty at the manipulation game. But he never raved.

 

[BenKenobi]

So you ignore the very name Separatists, as well as all the mentions about their objective to "secede," and just insist again that you are right without any evidence? Because clearly, having droid soldiers (which the Empire didn't use) or big weapons makes them the Empire?

I mean, America had nukes, and the Soviets had nukes, so Soviet = American going by this logic, right?

You can't just put your foot down and insist again on things like that while expecting people to just accept your word as complete truth. I see why the others in this thread have had a problem with you insisting on your opinions as fact. Act like that and we have nothing to talk about.

Okay this is a giant sentinel of genocide called a "Death Star" and you are somehow comparing this to a Nuclear deterrent? That is a huge lapse in logic. But you're right these are the good guys building the Death Star following the guy who looks like Satan.

Kidnapping a leader = "control the galaxy"?

Why didn't they occupy Coruscant? Why didn't they try to conquer everything, instead of "secede" as they kept saying they were?

If you're going to talk about the facts of the movie, you have to deal with the facts. You do not get to customize your own version of things.

Kidnapp the leader of the Galaxy, that would be like saying a terrorist group or foreign nation kidnapping the President is not a direct attack on the entire nation. Not to mention there was a giant space battle above the planet. Thats not a customized version of things it's what happened in the movie. They attacked the planet, if you don't think they did, then why is there the giant space fleet and kidnapped the Chancellor. Obviously they were losing if their leaders ship is getting shot down and plummeting to the surface, so your point?

So he kills off all the Confederate leaders and outs himself as a traitor...before the war was over and Palpatine was ready to declare himself Emperor?

Yeah, do exactly that because all Palpatine has to do is say "execute order 66" and the Jedi are out of the way. Really there is no defense why Palpatine had to wait out the war, besides to get Anakin into the Darth Vader suit for the original trilogy.

"So he gives away half the galaxy to his apprentice and a bunch of corporate jerks who he doesn't have complete control over, thus making himself look like a weak and pathetic Chancellor and probably getting thrown out of office. Awesome.

EDIT: Make no mistake about it, a "peace treaty" would be a clear Separatist victory and a Republic defeat, since the Republic's entire objective is to remain whole. This would make Palpatine look like a weakling and a loser, not the hero who people happily accepted as their new emperor.

Also, the Senate and not the Chancellor himself would have to approve a treaty. That's the way it is in real life and in TPM. So your idea is for all the loyal Republic Senators to just surrendur and give up half the Repubic? Why would they agree to that?"

Have you ever heard of the Roman Republic turned Empire? Julius Caesar? Rome became an Empire when the war hero Caesar took his loyal soldiers and marched upon the city, declaring himself the new Emperor. The idea that the people needed to "happily accept him as their new emperor" is preposterous, especially given the following trilogy of films is about the Rebellion against the Empire. The guy has an army of droids and an army of clones, there was no reason he needed to be voted in.

Also, the Senate would not have to approve anything, Palpatine was elected supreme Chancellor at the end of Episode II with enough power to approve bills without Senatorial permission. "For someone who seems so sure of yourself, you really don't seem to understand what was going on."

Funny, because I've never read any of the novelizations. Sounds like this "novelization" thing is just your easy way of dismissing anybody you don't agree with.

Or it could be because you are talking about all the Republic's power which is never shown and you are talking about the Separatists motives despite their contradicting actions and I assumed you were referring to material from a novelization.

The others were right. I can see that you're just a person with strong opinions that he insists are facts, in defiance of the actual facts. Pretty much a waste of time to talk to you if you carry on like this.

What the hell did I claim was a fact? Obviously you see the logic in my argument otherwise you wouldn't feel so threatened to try to discredit me.

 

[BenKenobi]

Very interesting comparison between Luke and Anakin. I had never looked at it before that way. I don't agree with your take on ROTJ Palpatine however.

He wasn't a raving maniac. He was still a tempter and he was trying to goad Luke into turning to the dark side. He also offered Luke a chance to replace Vader, who up until this point had been the bane of Luke's existence, the man who had cut off his hand, the father who had killed one of his real father figures in Obi Wan (and perhaps could be charged with Owen and Beru's murders too), tortured his sister, and threatened his friends. Up until this point, Vader was the guy who haunted his dreams and Luke didn't see too fazed by the Emperor, which prompted Yoda's warning to watch out for him.

If anything ROTJ Palpatine was more of a boaster, overconfident, and really rusty at the manipulation game. But he never raved.

Palpatine wasn't exactly rusty. Up to this point Luke was becoming his father, he was rushing in to things he was not ready for and had already paid with his hand. He was beginning the process that lead to the loss of Anakins humanity and he got to the point where he nearly went over the edge and killed his father whom he spent the whole movie trying to redeem and find good within. Plus Palpatine didn't really need to convert Luke, he was in a position where if he refused he could easily kill him.

 

[ClarkLuther55]

Okay this is a giant sentinel of genocide called a "Death Star" and you are somehow comparing this to a Nuclear deterrent? That is a huge lapse in logic. But you're right these are the good guys building the Death Star following the guy who looks like Satan.

You have provided NO logic.

You are seriously saying that the desire for the biggest gun during a war means matching political philosophy. In total contradiction to everything that was said during the actual movie.

The Empire exists as a military dictatorship at the complete service of the Emperor.

The Separatists want to...separate (self evident by the name) and "secede" (stated onscreen multiple times). They are in the control of a coalition of various greedy business interests, whom Palpatine can only appear to as a hologram.

But oh yeah, wanting a big weapon means they're just the same. You're not even trying to present any logical argument here. As I pointed out before, you're just putting your foot down and repeating yourself, as if insisting harder will convince anyone.

EDIT: BTW, I like how you divide the groups into "good guys" and bad guys. Do you really see things that simplistically? As if there can't be different types of villains with different agendas?

Kidnapp the leader of the Galaxy, that would be like saying a terrorist group or foreign nation kidnapping the President is not a direct attack on the entire nation.

Do not move the goalposts. You said that kidnapping the leader = "control the galaxy."

Now you backtrack and say that kidnapping the leader is an "attack on the entire nation," which is not the same thing at all. Your words don't match, and they don't support your previous argument that the Separatists wanted to take over everything (which makes their name an oxymoron).

Yeah, do exactly that because all Palpatine has to do is say "execute order 66" and the Jedi are out of the way. Really there is no defense why Palpatine had to wait out the war, besides to get Anakin into the Darth Vader suit for the original trilogy.

Because the Jedi are the only thing in Palpatine's way? No wait, you made that up as well.

The movies made it quite clear that Chancellor was a weak position when Palpatine took that office, and that the Senate held a lot of power. Palpatine dragged out the war and made himself look like a hero so that the Senators would all love and embrace him, and willingly give him more power. As shown by ANH, Palpatine didn't even take total control and dissolve the Senate until two decades later.

Have you ever heard of the Roman Republic turned Empire? Julius Caesar? Rome became an Empire when the war hero Caesar took his loyal soldiers and marched upon the city, declaring himself the new Emperor. The idea that the people needed to "happily accept him as their new emperor" is preposterous, especially given the following trilogy of films is about the Rebellion against the Empire. The guy has an army of droids and an army of clones, there was no reason he needed to be voted in.

You can't say that it's "preposterous" that Palpatine needed the support of the people, when the canon movies show exactly that.

You really think it's better strategy to declare himself God Emperor of everything, after making himself look like a terribly weak and incompetent leader by surrenduring half the Republic (which the Senate can throw him out of office for, see Chancellor Valorum).

You really think that the Clone Army is completely sealed off from all other communications to other Republic leaders (completely contradicted by the movies, which show the Senate and the Jedi commanding various parts of it) and that Palpatine can conduct an extended campaign and occupation with them against the Republic, withe EVERYONE against him?

EDIT: The Kaminoans clearly indoctrinated the clones to be loyal to the Republic. The Kaminoans ran a legitimate defense business and "had no motive" for evil, as Obi-Wan said himself. The Clone Army was not programmed to destroy and conquer the entire galaxy in defiance of the Republic.

This is supposed to be better than most of the Republic loving and willingly submitting themselves to him?

And I like how you bring up the Rebellion...who the movies clearly portray as a minority hiding out in a bunch of uninhabited Outer Rim planets.

Also, the Senate would not have to approve anything, Palpatine was elected supreme Chancellor at the end of Episode II with enough power to approve bills without Senatorial permission.

Which part said he could approve bills without Senate permission? The Senate gave him permission to create an army.

What the hell did I claim was a fact? Obviously you see the logic in my argument otherwise you wouldn't feel so threatened to try to discredit me.

What is this? "You're refuting everything I say, therefore you know I'm completely right."

That's what you're basically doing. Repeating yourself, going in circles, and dismissing everything that's brought up by others.

Because really, I'm soooo threatened by the guy who thinks "Death Star = matching philosophies on government"

I've already wasted too much time on you.