The Avengers vs The Dark Knight Rises

[cherokeesam]

I want the film to continue with the story it started in the first act, one that focuses entirely on Tony Stark actually having to overcome the obstacles himself and earn the victory, one that focus on making Vanko a better villain and a bigger threat, and one without useless subplots and characters that didn't need to be there in the first place and are only there to serve another movie. Not a different film, a better version of the one provided, that's what I want.

You want a different film. With a different second and third act, with SHIELD written out, with more material added for Mickey Rourke. That requires a re-shoot of 2/3 of the movie, so it's a different film.

If you *want* a different film, fine. Quit criticizing *me* for wanting the same thing *you* want in different-colored giftwrap.

 

[marcvader]

....what does this mean? Has there been any indication in the reports, rumors, or script leaks that Hawkeye and/or Black Widow aren't officially listed as Avengers? I find that highly unlikely.

Why would it be unlikely? They're listed as SHIELD agents in their website and they rather large SHIELD badges enblazoned on their uniforms. It's not huge leap to think they're not Avengers. My post was directed at people complaining that Hawkeye and BW will be short changed in screentime and character development because of the numbers in the cast and I stated that I didn't mind because this movie was about that actual Avengers who obviously are the big four.

 

[cherokeesam]

Why would it be unlikely? They're listed as SHIELD agents in their website and they rather large SHIELD badges enblazoned on their uniforms. It's not huge leap to think they're not Avengers. My post was directed at people complaining that Hawkeye and BW will be short changed in screentime and character development because of the numbers in the cast and I stated that I didn't mind because this movie was about that actual Avengers who obviously are the big four.

It would be unlikely because in canon, Hawkeye and Black Widow very definitely *are* Avengers, and core members at that. It would also be unlikely because all the merch, hype and promo so far has advertised them as part of the team. Yes, they don't qualify as "The Big Four" (which is misleading in and of itself, since the Avengers have a "Big Three" --- Cap, Thor and IM; Hulk is *not* an Avenger in anything more than a brief honorary role), but they're definitely promoted as part of the team, in the movie *and* the comics.

 

[marcvader]

I know full well what the Avengers canon is. I'm simply going by what we have, website and merchandise describing them as SHIELD assassins or operatives. They are seen in most not all of the promo pics fighting along with the big four but that doesn't necessarily mean they are "Avengers". You also get Fury in some promos as well and that doesn't mean he's an Avenger either. Regardless, I'm not against them being actual Avengers, I'm just going by what I see. This movie is about the recruitment and formation of a super team that are Cap, IM, Thor and Hulk. Hawkeye and BW are part of the organization organizing said team and assist said team. If they leave their SHIELD responsibilities behind and become actual Avengers, all the better.

 

[Iron_Stark]

The original Ra's is totally useless. That's probably the most useless character of all time. Used to set up an identity switch-a-roo that didn't change the story one iota except to get Ducard's name mentioned in the origin. Furthermore it's not like the "big M. Night Shamalamadingdong reveal" wasn't something everyone saw coming.

Scarecrow is essentially a thug. A theatrical thug, but a thug none the less.

Maroni is essentially "interchangible gangster". Treated like one too.

Dent is not useless. Read what I wrote. Your reading comprehension skills are lacking. Dent is a great character. Harvey Two-Face is useless. He's only serves to tie-up Jokers' loose ends. Which is fine, they set him up that way. The movie never lies and makes it out like Two-Face is supposed to be anything more than angry Dent going around off-ing minor characters. Had he been the whole movie, this would have been a problem, however he does exactly what the Joker says and sets him up to do and does it in a fairly short amount of time in regards to the plot.

I notice you guys throw the word "deep" around a lot without actually knowing what it means. Harvey Two-Face isn't deep. His motivations and character are not complex and are established in about a minute. A toddler could understand Harvey Two-Face, and it's supposed to be this way. He had to die, because Nolan only wrote about fifteen minutes of character in him. He's angry, he's out for revenge, and he's not like the Two-Face of the comics where he has grander plans. He doesn't. He's like a Charles Bronson. Once he gets the people he's supposed to get he's dead weight. So, rightfully he himself gets tied off.

I'm amused that you responded. I actually complimented Nolan for making better use of his characters, and not favoring those characters over the more important ones, and you still take contention with it because it anything that insinuates the movie isn't perfect needs your immediate response.

I agree with this post and the one prior. There were plenty of useless characters in those movie.

Apart from Ra's(Wantanabe) being useless the switcharoo Ra's(Neeson) was pretty useless as well, he shows up out of nowhere in the first act, disappears in the second act and returns in the third. And what was up with him mingling with that old lady? "Oh Bruce, there's someone you have to meet" What were they trying to hit on her or something? Or was it a sad attempt on pulling an M. Night Shyamalan on us?

Mr. Zsasz was another useless character, pretty well known in the Batman mythos, completely useless in Begins.

The Russian, they couldn't give him an actual name? He was just a stereotypical Russian thug.

Gamble, waste of talent in Micheal Jai White right there.

DeeBo from the Friday movie, what was his point in being there?

Speaking of pointless characters, what was the point of the homeless man going up to the Tumbler at the end of Begins and telling Gordon "Nice car" then giving the most ridiculous look when Gordon fired those shots. A normal person would've ran, this guy just gave a dumb look.

But I guess homeless people don't run when they hear gunfire in those movies? Take the other homeless man with the "nice coat" he's about 20 feet from gun fire, just stays there with his barrel o fire, can't hear gun fire, but he can hear Batman tell him "nice coat" with almost a whisper? Really?

Then don't get me started on the inept GCPD, they make Barney Fife look like John McClane. Gotham City would be safer with the Police Academy recruits. How did they let the Joker get away? There were at least 3 squad cars in pursuit with him sticking his head out the window and he gets away? A precinct gets blown up and no one cares? In the whole city of Gotham whose about as big as New York (or Chicago since there was a big sign that said CHICAGO), there's just one precinct there? No one bothered to call any other precincts for help? They had the Joker in front of them with a stolen police car with it's lights on and siren blaring and they let him get away without any explanation?

People want to nitpick Marvel movies, I can go all day with Nolan's. His movies aren't perfect, nowhere near.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

I agree with this post and the one prior. There were plenty of useless characters in those movie.

Apart from Ra's(Wantanabe) being useless the switcharoo Ra's(Neeson) was pretty useless as well, he shows up out of nowhere in the first act, disappears in the second act and returns in the third. And what was up with him mingling with that old lady? "Oh Bruce, there's someone you have to meet" What were they trying to hit on her or something? Or was it a sad attempt on pulling an M. Night Shyamalan on us?

Mr. Zsasz was another useless character, pretty well known in the Batman mythos, completely useless in Begins.

The Russian, they couldn't give him an actual name? He was just a stereotypical Russian thug.

Gamble, waste of talent in Micheal Jai White right there.

DeeBo from the Friday movie, what was his point in being there?

Speaking of pointless characters, what was the point of the homeless man going up to the Tumbler at the end of Begins and telling Gordon "Nice car" then giving the most ridiculous look when Gordon fired those shots. A normal person would've ran, this guy just gave a dumb look.

But I guess homeless people don't run when they hear gunfire in those movies? Take the other homeless man with the "nice coat" he's about 20 feet from gun fire, just stays there with his barrel o fire, can't hear gun fire, but he can hear Batman tell him "nice coat" with almost a whisper? Really?

Then don't get me started on the inept GCPD, they make Barney Fife look like John McClane. Gotham City would be safer with the Police Academy recruits. How did they let the Joker get away? There were at least 3 squad cars in pursuit with him sticking his head out the window and he gets away? A precinct gets blown up and no one cares? In the whole city of Gotham whose about as big as New York (or Chicago since there was a big sign that said CHICAGO), there's just one precinct there? No one bothered to call any other precincts for help? They had the Joker in front of them with a stolen police car with it's lights on and siren blaring and they let him get away without any explanation?

People want to nitpick Marvel movies, I can go all day with Nolan's. His movies aren't perfect, nowhere near.

 

[The Morningstar]

Well, Nolans movies ain't perfect. They have plenty of flaws. But really, I don't think i've met a comic book movie that is flawless or doesn't have pretty big flaws.

It's all about whether you can look past the flaws, small or big, and still gain enjoyment from them.

 

[marcvader]

I know I can in most cases.

 

[The Morningstar]

I can in pretty much all cases. Unless i'm actually bored or feel insulted.

Never hate a movie.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

I can in pretty much all cases. Unless i'm actually bored or feel insulted.

Never hate a movie.

When it comes down to it, I've never truly hated a long list of films. Was I disappointed with alot of them? Yes.

For me to hate a movie it would have to venture near Transformers ROTF & DOTM or Adam Sandler (Bucky Larson, Grown Ups, etc) territory.

When the topic arrives on Nolan's success with Inception and his Batflicks, I don't get too carried away. I'm a 'Nolanite' [view it as a positive term], but like many of us in the Batboards have discussed, his strengths still dont hinder us from seeing his flaws (no director can) -- and trust me, I have a list of what of areas Nolan should work on improving as a director.

With all that said, Christopher Nolan's flaws are workable and he shows improvement with every project he gets himself involved in.

Coincidentally, a fellow poster named KRIM brought this to my attention. Nolan's background characters are only mediocre in his Batflicks. Nowhere else in his filmography does his background characters show the same level of overacting or 'cheese'. Our guess is Nolan purposely infuses his minor characters with irritating or laughable dialogue simply because it comes straight from the source material.

 

[The Morningstar]

Well see I wouldn't call you a "Nolanite". That's reserved for the obsessive freaks who think Nolan is the greatest director ever and his films are without flaw.

I'd say you're a Nolan fan, so am I. Even if The Prestige or Memento were the only films Nolan had ever made i'd be a massive fan of the guy. I just don't like his Batman films too much.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Well see I wouldn't call you a "Nolanite". That's reserved for the obsessive freaks who think Nolan is the greatest director ever and his films are without flaw.

I'd say you're a Nolan fan, so am I. Even if The Prestige or Memento were the only films Nolan had ever made i'd be a massive fan of the guy. I just don't like his Batman films too much.

I'm enchanted by his pre-Batman career as well. I can't possibly decide which one is better. On that note, it's astonishing to me though that the general audience is still not aware of these great films.

As for his Batfilms, not everyone is going to appreciate them at the same level as others, but they remain a staple for what other superhero movies should aspire to be in the near future.

 

[BestGirl]

I agree with this post and the one prior. There were plenty of useless characters in those movie.

Apart from Ra's(Wantanabe) being useless the switcharoo Ra's(Neeson) was pretty useless as well, he shows up out of nowhere in the first act, disappears in the second act and returns in the third. And what was up with him mingling with that old lady? "Oh Bruce, there's someone you have to meet" What were they trying to hit on her or something? Or was it a sad attempt on pulling an M. Night Shyamalan on us?

Mr. Zsasz was another useless character, pretty well known in the Batman mythos, completely useless in Begins.

The Russian, they couldn't give him an actual name? He was just a stereotypical Russian thug.

Gamble, waste of talent in Micheal Jai White right there.

DeeBo from the Friday movie, what was his point in being there?

Speaking of pointless characters, what was the point of the homeless man going up to the Tumbler at the end of Begins and telling Gordon "Nice car" then giving the most ridiculous look when Gordon fired those shots. A normal person would've ran, this guy just gave a dumb look.

But I guess homeless people don't run when they hear gunfire in those movies? Take the other homeless man with the "nice coat" he's about 20 feet from gun fire, just stays there with his barrel o fire, can't hear gun fire, but he can hear Batman tell him "nice coat" with almost a whisper? Really?

Then don't get me started on the inept GCPD, they make Barney Fife look like John McClane. Gotham City would be safer with the Police Academy recruits. How did they let the Joker get away? There were at least 3 squad cars in pursuit with him sticking his head out the window and he gets away? A precinct gets blown up and no one cares? In the whole city of Gotham whose about as big as New York (or Chicago since there was a big sign that said CHICAGO), there's just one precinct there? No one bothered to call any other precincts for help? They had the Joker in front of them with a stolen police car with it's lights on and siren blaring and they let him get away without any explanation?

People want to nitpick Marvel movies, I can go all day with Nolan's. His movies aren't perfect, nowhere near.

Nolan's movies have flaws; people just ignore them because the overall product is so good. Flaws stick out more in a mediocre movie.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

With all that said, Christopher Nolan's flaws are workable and he shows improvement with every project he gets himself involved in.

Coincidentally, a fellow poster named KRIM brought this to my attention. Nolan's background characters are only mediocre in his Batflicks. Nowhere else in his filmography does his background characters show the same level of overacting or 'cheese'. Our guess is Nolan purposely infuses his minor characters with irritating or laughable dialogue simply because it comes straight from the source material.

I would assume everything written in a script is purposefully. It's not as though they have a "random line generator" lying around the production office specifically reserved for background characters. Yes, it's purposeful. It's also, as you say "irritating or laughable". I also agree with your observation that it seems like it's confined to Batman.

Yeah, he probably has a reason for it, but it doesn't justify it necessarily. No more than it justified Ang Lee's vision of taking the comic book element quite literally.

I think part of the reason is that Inception, Memento, Prestige and Insomnia just didn't have the ensembles the Batman movie does. I mean, when you do Batman you're pretty much automatically assuming they'll be The Waynes, Bruce, Alfred, one or two villains, a love interest, Dent, Gordon, a few cops, a few Wayne employees and perhaps a few other supporting cast members will be included. You have to tailor a story to those individuals. It's hard to leave them out.

 

[berikson]

the avengers will be better cause batman is been done to death

 

[El Payaso]

the avengers will be better cause batman is been done to death

It was done to death in 1997 and then they started making great movies about him again. That won't happen.

 

[Bastila]

Don't underestimate The Avengers :P

 

[henzINNIT]

Never hate a movie.

Except Matrix Revolutions

 

[Kevin Roegele]

I don't think Rises will make quite as much as the previous movie, but I would imagine $800m+, worldwide.

The Avengers, $700m+.

Men in Black III, $0. That's right, I don't think one person - not one person - will go see Men in Black III. No-one wanted it, no-one asked for it, no-one even liked Men in Black II, and that was ten years ago.

 

[Lord]

I don't think Rises will make quite as much as the previous movie, but I would imagine $800m+, worldwide.

The Avengers, $700m+.

Men in Black III, $0. That's right, I don't think one person - not one person - will go see Men in Black III. No-one wanted it, no-one asked for it, no-one even liked Men in Black II, and that was ten years ago.

You're eluded right? I know many people that like MIB II and that are interested in another one

 

[Kevin Roegele]

You're eluded right? I know many people that like MIB II and that are interested in another one

I hope you know hundreds of thousands of them.

 

[The Morningstar]

So, the Avengers superbowl spot was exactly what it needed. Amazing. And I think it has all the things to make it another Transformers. In terms of spectacle and mass appeal... hopefully not in terms of quality!

 

[I Am The Knight]

That spot was so much cooler than the trailer with the NIN music. Good stuff! I'm intrigued by that drink scene between Stark and Loki, in an odd way.

 

[jmc]

Yep, that TV spot was a vast improvement on everything shown so far.

 

[munchie64]

That spot was so much cooler than the trailer with the NIN music. Good stuff! I'm intrigued by that drink scene between Stark and Loki, in an odd way.

Every action movie needs a casual chat with a god like villain. t: