The Batman - Rate And Review Thread (Spoilers)

I've got one pet peeve. Not with the movie itself, but with some of the hyperbole I'm seeing on Twitter, that the ending with him carrying the girl and talking about being a symbol of hope is the greatest scene in a Batman film. It's a wonderful scene, don't get me wrong.

But people are acting like this is the first time a Batman movie has offered hope or talked about hope. The entire trilogy is literally about Bruce Wayne trying to construct a symbol that the criminals fear and inspires the good people of Gotham.

The ending of TDK is literally him ruining his own reputation to preserve hope for Gotham, because he thinks people deserve to have their faith rewarded. The entire climax is predicated on him placing his faith in the good people of Gotham while fighting to save them.

I really like the movie, but I get frustrated when at times it does feel like it's just remixing or slightly tweaking certain things we've seen before and people are acting like it's the first time it's ever been done and also the greatest thing ever.

Heck...I don't even really like JL (either cut), but Batman acts heroicly in that too, trying to coach Flash into saving one person for example, and everything he's trying to do in that film is literally about trying to protect the world.

This is where I just go full get off my lawn with fandom. Just...stop. :funny:
 
I've got one pet peeve. Not with the movie itself, but with some of the hyperbole I'm seeing on Twitter, that the ending with him carrying the girl and talking about being a symbol of hope is the greatest scene in a Batman film. It's a wonderful scene, don't get me wrong.

But people are acting like this is the first time a Batman movie has offered hope or talked about hope. The entire trilogy is literally about Bruce Wayne trying to construct a symbol that the criminals fear and inspires the good people of Gotham.

This happens a lot.

This uncanny need to pretend that a film - that is already great, usually - is also breaking new ground where it doesn't actually do so.

Where we have to pretend that everything it does well is some sort of innovation or something new.

It's not enough that this is the first neo-noir detective Batman film, it has to also be the first XYZ even if it's not. It comes across as wanting to give it too much credit and it comes at the cost and accomplishments of the past films and their creators.

I remember when Captain Marvel came out, much of the discourse was "Finally! A female driven superhero film!" as if Wonder Woman hadn't done that, just a year or so prior.

Drove. Me. Nuts.
 
This happens a lot.

This uncanny need to pretend that a film - that is already great, usually - is also breaking new ground where it doesn't actually do so.

Where we have to pretend that everything it does well is some sort of innovation or something new.

It's not enough that this is the first neo-noir detective Batman film, it has to also be the first XYZ even if it's not. It comes across as wanting to give it too much credit and it comes at the cost and accomplishments of the past films and their creators.

I remember when Captain Marvel came out, much of the discourse was "Finally! A female driven superhero film!" as if Wonder Woman hadn't done that, just a year or so prior.

Drove. Me. Nuts.

I want to be clear, this has absolutely 0 to do with the film, and everything to do with the hyperbole-driven social media age that we're in. Fandom was always bad about this kind of stuff, but fandom ON the drug of social media is....oof.

I should stop scrolling.
 
Ive noticed that as well haha. It's incredibly frustrating tbh. I mean, why can't people acknowledge that both endings are pure Batman? They're both endings that convey a hopeful point. The fact that fans can dismiss one because they're hyped about another is so silly and stupid. It also seems to be from the usual suspects.
 
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I want to be clear, this has absolutely 0 to do with the film, and everything to do with the hyperbole-driven social media age that we're in. Fandom was always bad about this kind of stuff, but fandom ON the drug of social media is....oof.

I should stop scrolling.

Social media isn’t about posting honest opinions about things, it’s about making as much noise as possible in order to get noticed. The entire concept is predicated on that one central desire… and therefore it’s wise to pretty much disregard almost every opinion made on it, because the person posting is more concerned with clicks than just talking about the subject matter at hand.

Unlike forums like this, social media isn’t about conversations, it’s about attention. Ghastly stuff.
 
I think you guy's may need to consider that not everyone has the same interpretation of the dark knight ending.

Perhaps I'm biased because of Rises basically saying this but I've always felt that Dark Knights ending wasn't hopful at all.

It was the wrong thing to do but sadly the only short terms solution to win.

It was inspiring because Batman did the one thing Joker never could.

Evolve.

Choose to change his symbol for what in his mind was the betterment of Gotham.

And that was made him stronger than both Joker and Dent in the end.

He was able to change with the events thrown at him.

But it was still disappointing and depressing that Batman made the choice he did.

He's utilmatey choosing lies over truth in order to give Gorham a false sense of security which blows up in his face when Bane exposes it.

Bruce Gordon are both mentally and destroyed and depressed at the beginning of Rises due to there choice and not effective at the job like they used to instead there sucidal.

Rachel wanted him to keep his faith in people.

At the end of dark knight he failed to do that.


He got redetmption and regain his faith in himself and the people of Gotham City at Rises.



Alot of people have this interpretation so it explains why people feel The Batman scene is something new and not just copying the dark knight.

Just to be clear some people are just hating in the old to prop up the new but not everyone is.
 
The Batman (2022) -

In full transparency, I was hyped to the moon for this film. It was likely the most hyped I was for a Batman film since 2008's The Dark Knight. Which isn't a slight on The Dark Knight Rises in 2012 - which I was hyped for that, but it was a bittersweet hype due to the understanding that a well loved series that is now one of the most beloved trilogies of all time was coming to a close.

And while I was hyped for The Batman - I wasn't excited or even wanting it to exist, for quite awhile. I, like many, felt burned we weren't getting the Affleck solo film we were promised. With Ben's comic accurate look, strong casting, his directing/writing history proving promising and the world he exists in being the fantastical, Gothic shred universe - it all was hard to hear that we would be not enjoying such a thing.

That said, I never was upset over Pattinson's casting. It was fair casting, I felt.

Though, the set photos revealing the costume also didn't endear me, neither did the reveal of the Batmobile. Both things told me that we were getting yet another 'early years' Batman that we got in Begins, Telltale, Arkham Origins and countless graphic novels - an angle I felt was played to death.

However, the enthusiasm of the filmmakers and actors, as well as the official stills and eventually the first trailer won me over despite these hang-ups.

The Gothic aesthetic, the rawness, the rain, the noir. It seemed chock full of elements that I felt were time to explore in a modern Batman film. Each trailer and interview only drove home the confidence I had in the film and pushed my hype higher.

So how was the film?

Well, I personally would say overall - it's good. Maybe great. But 'good' is the word I'm currently stuck on.

The Good/Great -

The film's noir-ish elements are a highlight. This film oozes atmosphere and style. Everything is dirty, grime-y and being soaked in rainwater. It's never truly 'daytime' in Gotham City. And I love that. The monologues of Bruce Wayne's journaled thoughts are a welcome touch of introspection, if a bit dramatic at times, that I think was underused but welcome when utilized.

Throughout the film, we meet many of Batman's most notable characters - The Penguin, The Riddler, Catwoman, Carmine Falcone, Alfred, Jim Gordon, etc.

All of them are perfectly acted and written as they all should be, really. Riddler is obsessed and enjoying his 'game' with Batman. Falcone is charismatic and smooth. The Penguin is insecure and volatile. Catwoman is slick and crafty. Alfred is tough and caring. And Gordon is a good cop.

Visually, the film is a treat. So many shots are frameable and the lighting is artistic, drastic and provide atmosphere to even the most normal settings. The cinematography is among the best the genre has ever seen, bar none.

Nothing in this film feels rushed, under-thought or thin.

This film (partially due to its three-hour runtime) is allowed time to breathe. No shot ends too soon - but some may end too late, for many. There isn't anything in this film that feels 'rushed' or like it wasn't given enough time to bake in the oven, in terms of what's shot.

The action is a great highlight. Batman is tough, quick, agile, hard-hitting - but not invincible or able to dodge every swing that comes his way. Some of his moves, from the grappling gun swings to the cape-action, is pure Batman.

Batman's moodiness is a welcome 'true to character' angle. He has presence - and it's a subtle, unsettling presence. He's understated in the best way.

Everyone in the cast has amazing chemistry and works off each other, so well. Batman and the Penguin interact so in character with each other. Gordon and Batman's dynamic has this cautious trust that you'd expect from their relationship at this point. Catwoman and Batman have exactly the sexy, mysterious rogue charm that the best stories in comic form brought.

The film sells the Batmobile as this Stephen King, 'Christine' like beast of power. The reveal of the Batmobile will go down as the greatest reveal of the character's ride in film history. It's scary, it's angry, it's bat-ash.

The action is generally frenetic. Batman hits hard. The Batmobile hits hard. His style of combat and flow feels like a hybrid of Bale's Batman and Affleck's more Arkham-esque style. So - a happy medium.

The sound design is sheer perfection. The roar of the Batmobile, the clicking of a neck-bomb, the filters over Dano's voice - it's perfect. This is Oscar-worthy sound design.

Also, this film...at times...feels like a gritty, dark version of '66 Batman. Batman doesn't hide in the shadows. He's around cops in GCPD and crime scenes. He's in the daylight if needed. He stands alongside arresting officers taking in a crook, in front of cameras. He's not an urban legend - he's reality.

It just feels a bit '66. In a great way.

The music is dark, contemplative, creepy and just overall...perfect for Batman. It's among the best Batman scores alongside Batman Returns and The Dark Knight Rises.

The sets are so polished and character driven - both the characters of the film and the character of the city. Bruce's home is incredible and unlike anything we've ever seen, even if I have a hard time seeing this version of Thomas and Martha Wayne living in such a place, it definitely fits this Bruce.

Riddler's home is equally incredible, if not more-so. So full of items, puzzles, ledgers, codewords. Clutter. Crazy clutter. It's so Riddler.

Dano is truly amazing - and when he's in the mask, on the video call or on the news, he is at his very best. He's energized and crazed and enjoying himself so very much. His downfall and emotional crashing is wonderfully performed - highlighting an almost angry man-child combined with Mark David Chapman obsession.

Matt Reeves has created a world.

Pattinson's Batman, again, is understated - but so effective. The Bat-Glare, is there. His voice is aggressive but low-key. He nails 'Batman'.

Overall, this film has so much going for it that only will get better with the next two installments, should we get them.

The Bad/Not So Great -

As for the writing, plot and characters - that's where the technical elements remain unmatched in their perfection and the film becomes a bit lopsided.

The opening setup and reveal of the villain is horror-like. It's thriller-esque. And very effective. He's crazy. Determined. Obsessed.
But that's kind of all he is.

Batman's first scene is also effective, albeit rather low-key. Rather than crashing down, popping out of a smoke bomb - he simply walks out of darkness and kicks some ash.

He's aggressive. He's angry.
And one of the issues the film has is that - that's kind of all he is.

This highlights the issues with the film's characterization overall - what you learn about Alfred, Batman, Gordon, Penguin and so on - in their first scenes, is really all you know about them and their personalities. There's no more dimension to them than what we're first shown.

The only character that we learn a bit more about is Catwoman - and that isn't so much about her as it is about her parental figure.

This film is more about unraveling a mystery and digging up the past - the dirty, grime covered past of a decaying bad place-scape called 'Gotham'.

And because it's more about the mystery - it isn't that character driven.

Batman himself is quiet and economical with his words. His eyes do a lot of the talking. Which, for Batman, is quite effective. But Bruce Wayne is portrayed as a shell of a human being. He's empty, cold, almost dead-inside.

That's how he begins the film and that's how he stays. The journaled monologues of the start of the film go on hiatus and we're left without much to to on, from Bruce. His portrayal as this cold shell of a human would be fine if we knew more about this version. We don't learn anything about him, really.

Cultural osmosis only goes so far. And there's no clear 'journey' our protagonist is on. There's really no 'arc' and the arc that the film seems to think exists (Batman realizing he needs to be seen less as vengeful and more as hopeful) comes so late in the film that it almost doesn't feel like it stuck the landing. It comes through a monologue rather than being shown growth progressively.

Some may say the ending 'rescue' scenes show that growth, but his near sacrifice and assistance at the end of the film doesn't seem like anything the dark, vengeful Batman throughout most of the film wouldn't have already done, anyway.

The film's antagonist, The Riddler, suffers the same issue. The Riddler is not as well known as Batman - so he relies on even less cultural osmosis. We don't find out much about him - where he acquired his skills, how he found out what he knows, what's his top motivation, what broke him, etc.

That leaves me to believe that the characters weren't the point - the mystery was. But we still need a driving narrative. Of which the film, at times, lacks.

The film ping-pongs between The Riddler's games and the hunt for him - and the mobster story of past and current corruption, alongside Catwoman's search for a missing friend. By proxy of the film's length and lack of character depth - once you're away from one of those three plot threads - you forget they exist.

There was a point at the start of the third act where I went "Woah, I forgot Riddler was in this."

And that shouldn't happen.
The film seemingly had too much story with too little character.

We learn nothing of Gordon's life or motivations. We learn nothing of Alfred's past much. And so on.

The most depth and character-driven growth is in Catwoman - as she mourns someone close to her, grapples with anger and lust for revenge alongside a complicated lineage.

Bruce himself grapples with issues in his lineage - when he learns of it, he's depressed, quiet and angry. The issue is that before learning of that - he was just as depressed, quiet and angry.

So not only does the film introduce a big beat that doesn't change the character, but it immediately backtracks on that reveal a scene or two later, leaving a viewer wondering the point.

Overall, while the film does have the central mystery-unraveling plot - it bounces between those other three threads in such a way that it leaves the film feeling devoid of a sole, driving narrative throughout its three hour runtime.

And for as great as a chase like the Batmobile/Penguin chase is - scenes like that lack urgency or stakes that make it as memorable as the Batmobile chase in Begins managed to be.

Pattinson's Bruce - while has potential - isn't given enough variety in what's needed of him to feel like a three dimensional person. He doesn't seem to have that much to do as Bruce - which may be the point...but doesn't make it engaging to watch as his Batman.

So, while the film is good or even great - there are issues that I didn't expect. Most of them based on characterization or lack thereof, alongside a lack of driving narrative and a runtime that allows a viewer to forget that a plotline (that we veered from) existed at all.

Conclusion -

Overall, The Batman is a visually stunning feast for the eyes that adapts the world and characters of Batman in a faithful way, but also in a way that expands and adds new flair to existing style, mythos and looks.

The action is truly great, the cast all bring such strong, A-game performances and the chemistry they have is a strong match for Nolan's amazing series.

The film excels on every technical level - sound, image, shot-framing, cinematography and music. It's near perfect in that regard.

And it lays a strong foundation for what will no doubt be a great series - but it leaves a lot of room for improvement in the character writing, plot-driven and general writing departments that future films should be able to address.

A film this damn good in so many areas shouldn't have suffered from the plot, character and writing issues present here. But for many fans, these issues will not matter as much or be made up in all the other areas.

It's just the film is so strong in so many areas with a ton of thought - that it makes its flaws so much more puzzling.

It's definitely good - perhaps great.

And I'm still looking forward to repeat viewings.

8/10 (Maybe 8.5/10...we'll see.)

100% echoed my thoughts
 
Luke this is beautifully emphasised . This is word for word why even though there entirely different films. Nolan's interpretation of who Batman is falls short overall . I hold BB and TDK to a high standard like most of us here but i visibly get annoyed with Bruce's arc in TDK and partly TDKR because of reasons you mentioned.
My biggest problem with TDK is ,The Dark Knight needed Much More of The Dark Knight.
 
I've got one pet peeve. Not with the movie itself, but with some of the hyperbole I'm seeing on Twitter, that the ending with him carrying the girl and talking about being a symbol of hope is the greatest scene in a Batman film. It's a wonderful scene, don't get me wrong.

But people are acting like this is the first time a Batman movie has offered hope or talked about hope. The entire trilogy is literally about Bruce Wayne trying to construct a symbol that the criminals fear and inspires the good people of Gotham.

The ending of TDK is literally him ruining his own reputation to preserve hope for Gotham, because he thinks people deserve to have their faith rewarded. The entire climax is predicated on him placing his faith in the good people of Gotham while fighting to save them.

I really like the movie, but I get frustrated when at times it does feel like it's just remixing or slightly tweaking certain things we've seen before and people are acting like it's the first time it's ever been done and also the greatest thing ever.

Heck...I don't even really like JL (either cut), but Batman acts heroicly in that too, trying to coach Flash into saving one person for example, and everything he's trying to do in that film is literally about trying to protect the world.

This is where I just go full get off my lawn with fandom. Just...stop. :funny:

It could be that the scenes in previous films didn't connect the same way. While for some it might be hyperbole, for others it might be this just hit home more.

We all have to remember that often times we are being blinded by our own biases and visions. As a fan of MOS I had these arguments a lot because what I saw as "Superman protecting people and being heroic" others saw as way less. As they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. :)
 
Ive noticed that as well haha. It's incredibly frustrating tbh. I mean, why can't people acknowledge that both endings are pure Batman? They're both endings that convey a hopeful point. The fact that fans can dismiss one because they're hyped about another is so silly and stupid. It also seems to be from the usual suspects.

True dat. But it is still ok to like one more than the other. That in and of itself is not a rip. (I am speaking of the rational argument not the argument that "ITS NEW SO IT IS BETTER!!1!1!1!11" obviously)

I loved the ending of TDK...it was perfect for the arc of that film. That said I prefer the ending to The Batman or Batman '89.

What matters is the nuance. To me, the ending needs to match the story that is told. In all 3 cases it does, so in all 3 cases the movie narratively works. That one might be slightly more enjoyable than the others is a matter of semantics.

(if you ask me I would change which is best probably daily I love them all so much)
 
This was awesome.

The storytelling wasn’t as focused as the Nolan films, but like Blade Runner, it’s just an awesome world to be in, regardless of how fast or slow the story is moving. Great style, and sense of realism and danger. The standout scene that comes to mind is Selina in the club with Bruce in her ear.

The twists with Falcone and Maroni kept me hooked. I thought they were maybe even gonna make Riddler into Hush.

Also it was more emotional than I thought it’d be. Cried twice.

My main gripe, other than the simply unfocused storytelling, was simply the amount of repetition, with locations, going from the crime scene, to Selinas apartment, back to the crime scene, back to the apartment, etc, and all the trips to the club. Repetition in the amount of “Batman” moments, walking in from the shadows, with the repetitive score.

I also didn’t love Dani’s performance. Everyone else was great though. Pattinson and Kravitz were a joy to watch together.
 
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This was magnificent.

Cast: Pattinson killed it in the role. I love how the Bruce Wayne charactes was almost non-existent - a dark, brooding shell and he was 100% committed to his Batman persona. Eerie and excellent performance by Dano, Wright and Turturro.

Zoe was so adorable as Selina too and I want more of Farrell's Penguin. Andy Serkis was one of the best Alfred interpretations I've seen and I really wish he has more screen time in the sequel.

Story: Loved the showcase of detective skills and really brought me Zodiac vibes with the riddles and clues sprinkled throughout. Excellent final act too. My only critique is that the Wayne's subplot could've been trimmed down a bit, as it slightly affected the pacing towards the middle.

Visuals/Cinematography/Action: Gotham finally looked like this dirty, soaked, crime-infested mess of a city that we haven't seen since BB. Some absolutely stunning shots, as well as amazingly shot hand-to-hand fights. THAT Batmobile entrance and chase were the highlights of the film for me and the POV shots during the chase (as well as other bits throughout the film) really made this film visually distinct and beautiful to look at. Kudos to Greig Fraser - the most visually stunning film I've seen since... Dune. No surprise here, as this was the last project he worked as a DP for.

Score: This is Giacchino's best score yet. It had traits of Elfman and Zimmer's works, but it also was its own thing entirely. It really brought the idea of Batman as a horror entity who is feared among the criminals of Gotham. The opening montage with Bruce's narration, while "Can't Fight City Halloween" played on the background hade me goose bumping of joy.

Overall, this was a piece of art and possibly the 2nd best Batman film after TDK (maybe 3rd, as I considerer TDKR in the same ballpark). It is the most screen time Batman has ever had abd at times the whole film brought me Burton vibes with its dark and gritty look. My only nit-pick is the story dragging a little in the middle, where you could really feel the 3-hour length of the whole thing.

9.5/10
 
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I've got one pet peeve. Not with the movie itself, but with some of the hyperbole I'm seeing on Twitter, that the ending with him carrying the girl and talking about being a symbol of hope is the greatest scene in a Batman film. It's a wonderful scene, don't get me wrong.

But people are acting like this is the first time a Batman movie has offered hope or talked about hope. The entire trilogy is literally about Bruce Wayne trying to construct a symbol that the criminals fear and inspires the good people of Gotham.

The ending of TDK is literally him ruining his own reputation to preserve hope for Gotham, because he thinks people deserve to have their faith rewarded. The entire climax is predicated on him placing his faith in the good people of Gotham while fighting to save them.

I really like the movie, but I get frustrated when at times it does feel like it's just remixing or slightly tweaking certain things we've seen before and people are acting like it's the first time it's ever been done and also the greatest thing ever.

Heck...I don't even really like JL (either cut), but Batman acts heroicly in that too, trying to coach Flash into saving one person for example, and everything he's trying to do in that film is literally about trying to protect the world.

This is where I just go full get off my lawn with fandom. Just...stop. :funny:

Honestly man I've had to delete twitter. I absolutely adored this movie, could easily be my favourite Batman film ever and yet I'm there on twitter dunking on something I love because some stans are going OTT and ripping the Nolan trilogy :funny:
 
I've got one pet peeve. Not with the movie itself, but with some of the hyperbole I'm seeing on Twitter, that the ending with him carrying the girl and talking about being a symbol of hope is the greatest scene in a Batman film. It's a wonderful scene, don't get me wrong.

But people are acting like this is the first time a Batman movie has offered hope or talked about hope. The entire trilogy is literally about Bruce Wayne trying to construct a symbol that the criminals fear and inspires the good people of Gotham.

The ending of TDK is literally him ruining his own reputation to preserve hope for Gotham, because he thinks people deserve to have their faith rewarded. The entire climax is predicated on him placing his faith in the good people of Gotham while fighting to save them.

I really like the movie, but I get frustrated when at times it does feel like it's just remixing or slightly tweaking certain things we've seen before and people are acting like it's the first time it's ever been done and also the greatest thing ever.

Heck...I don't even really like JL (either cut), but Batman acts heroicly in that too, trying to coach Flash into saving one person for example, and everything he's trying to do in that film is literally about trying to protect the world.

This is where I just go full get off my lawn with fandom. Just...stop. :funny:

As someone who does now have the flare scene as my personal favourite movie scene end of story, I think the difference between this and previous examples for me personally is the buildup to the scene. TDK's ending absolutely shows Batman being a hero. But the difference between that and this is that TDK trilogy didn't really have Bruce struggling with that concept directly. He turns up as Batman in Begins and from second 1, he's heroic in nature. Obviously, that's not the case here.

The flare/ending scenes are the culmination of an almost 3 hour long character arc where Bruce slowly realizes he can't just be a vengeful creature of the night. He realizes that he needs to also be that symbol of hope. He needs to turn his pain into hope, rather than vengeance. And for a lot of people, including myself, that's the main takeaway of Batman. That's the main lesson to take from him, this idea of turning your pain into something better. And especially with how upfront this movie is with how mentally ill Bruce is, that translates into essentially teaching that you can turn the pain your mental demons brings into something better. Because if he can, so can you. That idea is why I got so into Batman and why he's my favourite fictional character of all time. And seeing that side of the character, a side that once upon a time gave a little boy hope that he can do something other than the absolute worst option when it comes to his mental illness, finally realized on the big screen? That is forking everything to me in a way that no previous Batman has done.

It's not about him being heroic, it's the journey it took to get there and what the implications are for this specific example which aren't present (or at minimum, in the case of Batfleck, not done very well) in other examples.
 
True dat. But it is still ok to like one more than the other. That in and of itself is not a rip. (I am speaking of the rational argument not the argument that "ITS NEW SO IT IS BETTER!!1!1!1!11" obviously)

I loved the ending of TDK...it was perfect for the arc of that film. That said I prefer the ending to The Batman or Batman '89.

What matters is the nuance. To me, the ending needs to match the story that is told. In all 3 cases it does, so in all 3 cases the movie narratively works. That one might be slightly more enjoyable than the others is a matter of semantics.

(if you ask me I would change which is best probably daily I love them all so much)
Oh it's certainly all a matter of opinion, and it's completely valid to like one ending more than the other. But what I see, especially on twitter, is exactly what others have said. People try to make as much noise as possible, which is precisely why I don't converse much on twitter. It also doesn't help when it's from people who claimed something was a masterpiece years before it even released.
 
The flare/ending scenes are the culmination of an almost 3 hour long character arc where Bruce slowly realizes he can't just be a vengeful creature of the night. He realizes that he needs to also be that symbol of hope. He needs to turn his pain into hope, rather than vengeance. And for a lot of people, including myself, that's the main takeaway of Batman. That's the main lesson to take from him, this idea of turning your pain into something better. And especially with how upfront this movie is with how mentally ill Bruce is, that translates into essentially teaching that you can turn the pain your mental demons brings into something better. Because if he can, so can you. That idea is why I got so into Batman and why he's my favourite fictional character of all time. And seeing that side of the character, a side that once upon a time gave a little boy hope that he can do something other than the absolute worst option when it comes to his mental illness, finally realized on the big screen? That is ****ing everything to me in a way that no previous Batman has done.
Man ive been on this Forum a long time but when i see a statement like this that resonates with me on a personal level , I can't help but feel a emotional gratitude towards fans and writers of Batman. As someone who has become quite disillusioned with life atm. Batman's mental demons and psychology is why i can't get enough of this character and have often used it for therapy. Its why his Villains spark a interest in me as far as saying sometimes reflections of Bruce'd/Batmans own personas. I often talk of the light and darkness in people because i study shadow work but the fact remains that The Batman had a arc that ive romanticised deeply. I find it hugely fascinating how Batman tows the line but at the same time uses his trauma for the greater good and i have a feeling this franchise will dive into that even more than previously. Really appreciate this post DeadlyWest.
 
I will add that
Batmans speech at the end about moving past scars to use them for something good hit me on a personal level as well. I feel like at this point in time, I can really relate to that and it's something that I think some people have to consider at one point in their lives.
 
Oh it's certainly all a matter of opinion, and it's completely valid to like one ending more than the other. But what I see, especially on twitter, is exactly what others have said. People try to make as much noise as possible, which is precisely why I don't converse much on twitter. It also doesn't help when it's from people who claimed something was a masterpiece years before it even released.

Well Twitter is just like the lame RT bloggers on a mass scale. Lots of people no one has heard of trying to have hot takes to stand out in a crowd of loud voices. 95% of them wouldn't say any of that or at nearly that level if they were standing in front of you. Those jerks drown out the legit discourse. There is no more middle ground...you either love it at 100 or it is the worst thing ever. Ok no longer is a thing as evidenced by now 80s on RT being "bad" apparently.

It is weird because it was the exact opposite in 2008. And that was a flip from Begins! In 2008 if anyone dared criticize anything about TDK they were shouted down by the same hyperbole and vitriol. I have a friend who is not a big Nolan guy and he just didn't click with the film. He posted on a non-comics board about it and was flamed so bad he left for a couple months. He didn't go crazy it just wasn't his thing and his gripes were legit. I had never seen anything like that from non-comics fans. It is when movies started to stop being fun for a while for me because that spread fast. As someone that is not a fan of Marvel films I started to get that kind of attack against me a lot if I had little interest in the coming film. (then I happened to like films by a director everyone hates and that really ruined discussion for a while)

Back after Begins came out the Burton freaks and some others spent weeks attacking those of us that loved it on a few different boards (IMDB by far the worst) and literally until the day of TDK's announcement would spam every Batman thread shouting down anyone who liked it saying it bombed and would get no sequel. It was a weird cluster...

Personally, I love a diversity of opinions so I don't get the tribal nature. My buddy loves Spiderman and the MCU and I don't (I like the Raimi Spiderman flicks but nothing else really) and it is never a problem. He never feels the need to shame my taste or I him. (we joke obviously) The internet has ruined discourse. (God I sound old)
 
Well Twitter is just like the lame RT bloggers on a mass scale. Lots of people no one has heard of trying to have hot takes to stand out in a crowd of loud voices. 95% of them wouldn't say any of that or at nearly that level if they were standing in front of you. Those jerks drown out the legit discourse. There is no more middle ground...you either love it at 100 or it is the worst thing ever. Ok no longer is a thing as evidenced by now 80s on RT being "bad" apparently.

It is weird because it was the exact opposite in 2008. And that was a flip from Begins! In 2008 if anyone dared criticize anything about TDK they were shouted down by the same hyperbole and vitriol. I have a friend who is not a big Nolan guy and he just didn't click with the film. He posted on a non-comics board about it and was flamed so bad he left for a couple months. He didn't go crazy it just wasn't his thing and his gripes were legit. I had never seen anything like that from non-comics fans. It is when movies started to stop being fun for a while for me because that spread fast. As someone that is not a fan of Marvel films I started to get that kind of attack against me a lot if I had little interest in the coming film. (then I happened to like films by a director everyone hates and that really ruined discussion for a while)

Back after Begins came out the Burton freaks and some others spent weeks attacking those of us that loved it on a few different boards (IMDB by far the worst) and literally until the day of TDK's announcement would spam every Batman thread shouting down anyone who liked it saying it bombed and would get no sequel. It was a weird cluster...

Personally, I love a diversity of opinions so I don't get the tribal nature. My buddy loves Spiderman and the MCU and I don't (I like the Raimi Spiderman flicks but nothing else really) and it is never a problem. He never feels the need to shame my taste or I him. (we joke obviously) The internet has ruined discourse. (God I sound old)
I actually do remember back in 2008 some of the more extreme Nolan fans took it too far. I was one of those massive Nolan fans (and obviously still am) that never really got mad when a person stated they didn't care for TDK. I've met a few that still think batman 89 is a masterpiece, and that's fine if they do. I just think that it's hard to be actually fair and logical on social media without being shot down for it. seriously, I've seen people on Twitter get flamed for saying "The Batman is a truly great film, but TDK is still my personal favorite". Like, as you said ,everything has to be perfect or it's **** with no grey area. For me, The Batman is a fantastic movie and one of my favorite comic book movies in years. It sits comfortably at #3 behind TDK and BB. That, to me, is obviously a sign that I truly loved this movie. . That's incredibly high praise either way, but for others though, that's not enough. It also doesn't help that more than half of these people just want a soap box to try to come off as "the biggest fan". It's annoying as bad place. It does come with the territory though ,especially because it's a new Batman adaption. I actually remember some of the Burton bashing once TDK released, so to be on the other end of that with TDK trilogy being my generations Batman back then is interesting.

Also, I too only really care for Raimis Spider-Man, as much as I enjoyed No Way Home. :D
 
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Happy to finally be on the other side. Some thoughts, starting with the problems: the detective storyline starts out clean/clear and stays engaging throughout, but I feel it gets a smidge too knotted, and there starts to be a requirement (mostly for Gordon) to explain exposition in pretty broad, 4th-wall-breaking ways. On a first watch, that tone stretched for too long and ended up feeling a little suffocating, like too much of the same thing. I did feel the 3 hours, yes. It's probably my biggest criticism at this point: plot construction. The movie commits to its mystery, but can't help feeling cumbersome at points.

My main fan-complaint would be that the Batmobile doesn't get to shine as much I hoped. What I was able to appreciate of its design and details comes from pics and videos, not from the movie itself. My friend commented on it and said she didn't feel like she ever got a proper look of the new design. It's possible that my screen wasn't optimal for balancing out all the blacks. But as far as frivolous disappointments go, it's my biggest one. Which might extend into a want for more Batman action.

But I'm happy to feel immediately peckish for that 2nd watch, as I loved a lot of it. There was a moment around the start, when "Something in the way" starts playing and I'd gotten a fair sense of what the tone/approach was gonna be, where I felt this certainty that I was in for a good time. I wanna chase that feeling.

A concern had been that it would sometimes feel like a redo of Begins, but there's very little of that. They take the "Young Batman" idea and take it in a pretty different direction. One could hear it's the "Arrival in Gotham - Falcone capture" section of BB turned into a whole movie, but even then, you have the obsessive journaling and the focus on the unhealthy mind-warping loneliness of being Batman night after night, which results in an interesting characterization of Bruce that feels fairly novel.

I had heard about Pattinson's lack of variation between Bruce and Bats, but it felt to me like the only way to tackle this Bruce. "Batman" is his life project now and switching back into Bruce mode is a nuissance, done only when necessary (reconnaissance, Alfred in the hospital), to the point where "acting" is barely worth the effort. Daylight and Bruce-ing feels so unnatural it requires sunglasses. It doesn't feel like a lack of something, but rather a conscious take on the character. Pattinson did fantastic and I loved his rasp-free, youthful, affected Batman voice. I liked Paul Dano's Riddler just fine as well, even with the lil moments of broadness. I feel you kinda need to allow actors to try their thing and call the shots on their roles without shifting into director mode. I loved the little moments where he looks like an impish little kid. Selina was a little different from what I expected, a little more insecure, less "together" than other Catwomen. I liked that, and her arc, a lot.

Taking a step back from the film's many moving parts, I do appreciate the larger story of a dirty city where the self-appointed heroes are also dirty, unworthy men. I'm always wary of messing withy the hero's parents (TASM comes to mind), but I really liked to see Bruce being forced to deal with that reality and rising above it. I had read the 3rd act felt "separate" and like mandatory spectacle, but I saw it as a necessary set piece for Batman to reach the realization the whole film had been leading towards. "It can't all be about pain and anger. I need to be more". 8.5/10, would watch again.
 
Batinnson Begins

Went in with relatively low expectations as I hadnt really kept up tabs on this films production what with all the delays and everything, yes the trailers all looked really good but after the last few years of er "experimentation" shall we say and Nolan's trilogy pretty much nailing it for me, I wasnt all that fussed about this but I'm glad I did in the end as there was a lot of freaking awesome stuff in this movie for a Batman fan and it felt like a new take on things rather than a retread of the old.

This felt like a TellTale/Arkham game almost coming to life, which yes for the most part is pretty grounded but there's a little more embracing of the comics here than Nolan's work but in the end it felt very much its own thing and can stand on its own two legs thankfully without needing compare to other versions (yes it will happen no doubt this is the internet after all, heck I just did it myself) but while it might not be the very top tier for me personally I can totally see why someone would say this their favourite take on the character, as Batman is front and center on this one, its all him, Bruce is dialed way back, maybe for the best as it feels like they are still working on that and might be stronger next time, as the scenes of Pattinson as Bruce were possibly darker and more brooding than when he's in the suit, even is house is moody and angry looking. :funny:

Pattinson as Batman though, chef's kiss, as the kids say these days, absolutely nailed it, for the first hour of the movie he is the shadows and his introduction here was a piece of art, in fact the first hour of this movie is nay on masterpiece, with Riddler's haunting set up, Batman's intro and that shot of Pat's going into the cave with Nirvana's Something in the Way playing, damn, rarely do pop songs work in movies but that was absolute perfecto, probably the point the movie peaked for me.

Everyone in fact does and excellent job with what they have, Colin Farrell though is the easy standout though as Penguin, just transformational in the role and one of the best scenes was him being interogated by Bats and Gordon when he goes full De Niro on them, brilliant. Paul Dano was excellent as Riddler too, a really unique and twisted view on the character.

The action and stunts were all on point and you really feel those punches when Bat's is whaling on guys, you can feel the anger coming out of the screen from him, the car chase though is probably the standout piece though and really well done again.

The best thing this movie does is drag you into this world though, the setting and grunge fell to it with its Se7en/Bladerunner/Fight Club vibe and total despair feeling dripping out of every scene, it commits to it from the start and doesnt forget it or abandon it half way through, what you see and hear here is always glorious throughout.

The plot is possibly one the films weakest or slightly more problematic areas however, again it starts strong with the murders and mystery of it all but when Selina Kyle shows up it losses itself a little and got a bit bogged down and some of the twists and turns dont really last long or change much. The Riddlers final plan as well is fairly straight forward and not really as complex as it first seems, maybe not a major problem but a little underwhelming, still his final scenes and third act action piece is well done so it sort of balances out.

I really do wish the film finished with the shot of Bats carrying out one of those in need of rescue and him looking up as a symbol of hope etc, that would have been perfect especially as the 2 minutes after added nothing and that Joker set up was really not needed/wanted from me. I am well down for a sequel but can we get something a bit more interesting than the Joker again, give me Deathstroke in this world going head to head with Bat's or some of his other villains, it was great Riddler got his due here but there are loads of great ones to be used without resorting to the clown again but I guess he's popular so will be showing up at some point.

Overall a really great ride, a few issues here and there, some things worked a lot better than others but the world they have built is really great and shows mass potential for inevitable follow ups.

8.5/10
 
I think is quite too early to say if The Batman is better than both Nolan or Burton.

On one side, those are movies too much inside our heads; on the other side, when you watch a new movie, you have an emotional reaction, mainly.
You need to elaborate.

Now, what I can say after one watch, is that The Batman is tie with TDK and Batman 89. They are three awesome movies, but very different in their vision on the character.

Anyway, I can say - without waiting the elaboration - that Bruce's character is the most accurate and it seems the most able to do an amazing, emotional and coherent arc than any others cinematic Batman.

It's clear that Reeves' desire is this: going deep in the character, shaking his soul, made him fight with his inner monsters.

And he is doing - potentially - in a more dynamic way than Nolan did.
 

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