The Brave and the Bold News and Discussion Thread

[Filmfreak]

I very much doubt Joker 2 will do anything near what the first film did. That was a pop culture phenomenon success that you can't replicate easily. Also being a musical won't help those numbers. I'm sure it will do well, just not as much as many people seem to expect it to do. The same for Aquaman 2.

 

[Boom]

The Flash visually and tonally lacks so much in the costume/production design departments, as well as the cinematography. Just so many tacky directorial choices.

Muschietti doesn’t work well with scale.

Agreed to both of these points. The Flash is a genuinely ugly film to look at. I'm not even going to beat around that bush. For a big tentpole film releasing in 2023, after having been in development for years, there's really no excuse for it to look this bad. I suppose you can't lay blame squarely at Muschetti's feet regarding CG quality, but I can criticize him for the extremely bizarre framing and cinematography choices that only aggravated the effects issues and made them even worse. There's a particular shot from the movie that hand-to-God looks exactly like a video-game cutscene transitioning into a boss fight. It's horrendous. I just get a sense that Muschetti struggles with directing scenes that are driven almost entirely by special effects. He either doesn't have good instincts as to where to put the camera, or he leans so heavily into the effects themselves that there is zero tangibility to what's happening on screen. Everything is weightless and smooth and shadowless. It's literal visual noise.

I'm not even going to get into the costumes. Suffice it to say, Muschetti's choices with Affleck's and Keaton's suits raise some serious concerns.

 

[Invader Joker]

This is so needlessly negative. The director of The Hangover made Joker. Let’s not forget that The Flash was a studio job, with constant rewrites, largely written before Muschietti even boarded it and then chopped, changed and delayed a thousand times over.

Blame him for the visuals but you can’t blame him for the story/script. Besides, Gunn has already said he will require scripts to be locked and approved before shooting. If you have faith in Gunn, the story/scripting should be fine.

I am blaming him for the visuals, I think the story/script on that film is mostly fine.

 

[Invader Joker]

So this is how some felt when Ledger/Affleck/Pattinson were cast...



Yeah, it's certainly not a good signal when your next Batman director already has under his belt a movie featuring two versions of the character, which has been almost entirely marketed on them, opening with a low box office and getting mixed reaction (to be kind)...

______​

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the announcement was made so early to boost The Flash's box office by stoking curiosity to see what the next director entrusted with the keys to Batman might do. I mean... putting the cart before the horse is something we're used to at WB/DC, right ?

Honestly it's not out of the realm of possibility that's the case. Studios have a history of doing this. There was Joss Whedon announced for Batgirl before Justice League (even when he later admitted he never even had an idea for it and the whole thing was pretty much nothing), Chris McKay for Nightwing (even when that genuinely went absolutely nowhere), WarnerMedia announcing a bizarre Jason Momoa Frosty the Snowman movie to counter-attack Ray Fisher's claims, and even at Disney you've got the infamous Rian Johnson Star Wars trilogy.

Standing by creatives by giving them big projects that go absolutely nowhere or that move forward with someone else seems to be a common PR tactic.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

No one get too attached to Andy.

 

[emielaen]

DCU is ruined before it even started

Oh relax. Jesus.

 

[solidsnake86]

No one get too attached to Andy.

I'll go one step further, no one get too attached to this film happening period. If the flash doesn't bring in the money it was expected too, WBD has a problem and I don't see them investing in a second batman property when the resources would be better directed to the one that did far better.

 

[Invader Joker]

They'd be wiser to turn this into a streaming show.

 

[squeekness]

I wouldn't have a problem with that. Shows let you get better rounded out characters.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Whatever remaining interest I have in this film rides on the casting and potentially the writing. Ultimately, though, Muschietti's sensibilities aren't for me, and I don't know how you get around that.

 

[Lily Adler]

No one get too attached to Andy.

I'll go one step further, no one get too attached to this film happening period. If the flash doesn't bring in the money it was expected too, WBD has a problem and I don't see them investing in a second batman property when the resources would be better directed to the one that did far better.

You both make compelling arguments, but for now I'll lean towards the former. However, I wouldn't rule the latter out.

 

[Boom]

I don't see how The Flash underperforming would affect their decisions with Batman. One way or another Gunn is going to want a Batman in the DCU.

Still, super awkward to announce Muschetti on opening weekend when all signs point to The Flash severely underperforming. I think the constant delays and rewrites, apathy towards the DCEU in general, and maybe even the Ezra controversy to a certain degree were all too much to overcome in the end. The shoddy special effects are just the cherry on the **** sundae.

 

[Invader Joker]

I don't see how The Flash underperforming would affect their decisions with Batman. One way or another Gunn is going to want a Batman in the DCU.

Still, super awkward to announce Muschetti on opening weekend when all signs point to The Flash severely underperforming. I think the constant delays and rewrites, apathy towards the DCEU in general, and maybe even the Ezra controversy to a certain degree were all too much to overcome in the end. The shoddy special effects are just the cherry on the **** sundae.

Legs aren't looking too good either seeing how it seems that early audience reaction is seeming mega-mediocre.

 

[Boom]

Just ready to move on, frankly.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I don't see Andy getting any of the blame for The Flash. He is clearly extremely well liked by the studio/Gunn and regardless of how conspiratorial you want to get about the marketing it is clear they love The Flash as a movie. This project was clearly his from the moment it was conceived.

This is just kinda what everyone should have expected when they announced a more standardized shared universe. You're gonna get a particular kind of director on these, some mediocre (Muschietti) and some great (Mangold) but you're never going to get a Matt Reeves or a Nolan or frankly another James Gunn.

 

[solidsnake86]

I don't see how The Flash underperforming would affect their decisions with Batman. One way or another Gunn is going to want a Batman in the DCU.

Still, super awkward to announce Muschetti on opening weekend when all signs point to The Flash severely underperforming. I think the constant delays and rewrites, apathy towards the DCEU in general, and maybe even the Ezra controversy to a certain degree were all too much to overcome in the end. The shoddy special effects are just the cherry on the **** sundae.

A lot can change in a few years so it can definitely happen and if it comes to fruition it's a 2026 movie at earliest. Gunn has also made 2 interesting comments, they won't movie forward with a movie if the script isn't excellent and in the past he has stated that have 2 versions of a character at the same time does a disservice. Couple that with the comic book fatigue movement and this movie becomes a lot tougher to get off the ground.

Anyone that looks at the batman franchise can also realize that when batman movies are bad, they aren't the cash cow everyone makes them out to be. Look at the damage batman and robin did to the brand and the effect it had on batman begins' box office.

The studio is losing money and the finance people who typically make these decisions will be thinking the exact same thing. Why make a competing batman when you have an established one that's successful.

Gunn probably has the power to move it forward, but if it doesn't do better than the batman, he will be out of a job.

 

[Invader Joker]

I don't see Andy getting any of the blame for The Flash. He is clearly extremely well liked by the studio/Gunn and regardless of how conspiratorial you want to get about the marketing it is clear they love The Flash as a movie. This project was clearly his from the moment it was conceived.

This is just kinda what everyone should have expected when they announced a more standardized shared universe. You're gonna get a particular kind of director on these, some mediocre (Muschietti) and some great (Mangold) but you're never going to get a Matt Reeves or a Nolan or frankly another James Gunn.

The movie is having terrible reception with the GA for starters. You don't want to blame the opening weekend on him? Okay, let's blame on him the fact that the movie is also tracking to have absolutely mediocre legs and it's being the subject of widespread mockery across social media. Let's blame on him the fact that even kids are only giving it a 58% reccommend per PostTrak, a number that is ridiculously low for blockbusters since kids tend to like everything. Let's blame on him the fact that the movie is underwhelming and has an atrocious visual style.


Also you keep making the "oh they were always doomed to get another journeyman" point as if Muschietti was their only choice but it wasn't. I don't understand why you keep making that point as if there weren't other journeymen out there that are much more competent than him.

He's about to lose hundreds of millions for the studio. He doesn't have particularly great critic ratings, he doesn't have great audience ratings. He has nothing, there is good reason to believe he'll get kicked out of this eventually because it is 100% reasonable to blame a good chunk of the movie's failure on him. (Let's not forget that it's not like WBD is swimming in money right now. They're gonna have to look for investors, and who the **** will invest in Muschietti after how The Flash is looking?)

 

[SwordOfMorning]

The movie is having terrible reception with the GA for starters. You don't want to blame the opening weekend on him? Okay, let's blame on him the fact that the movie is also tracking to have absolutely mediocre legs and it's being the subject of widespread mockery across social media. Let's blame on him the fact that even kids are only giving it a 58% reccommend per PostTrak, a number that is ridiculously low for this. Let's blame on him the fact that the movie is underwhelming and **** and therefore it was always gonna flop to that.

Also you keep making the "oh they were always doomed to get another journeyman" point as if Muschietti was their only choice but it wasn't. I don't understand why you keep making that point as if there weren't other journeymen out there that are much more competent than him.

Oh, I think Muschietti's choices on The Flash are all really bad and absolutely make me think The Brave & The Bold will be super underwhelming at best. I just don't think Gunn or WB agree with me on that.

I'm not defending the choice of Muschietti. I'm just resigned to the fact this movie was never going to be very interesting as a project to begin with. There's a really strong Batman franchise running already - this movie exists solely to fill a Batman quota. It feels wildly unnecessary, I was more excited by Batgirl than this and I never thought that had much of a shot at greatness (though its cancellation was reprehensible). It just really, truly feels superfluous.

 

[Eddie Dean]

I actually think the opposite is true. WB knows Flash was a disaster, far out of AM’s control between an out of control star and the studio demanding changes all the time and all the whole AM was a team player and was happy to work with them and not give any pushback. He’s the type they want.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Legs aren't looking too good either seeing how it seems that early audience reaction is seeming mega-mediocre.

You mean BAD.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I actually think the opposite is true. WB knows Flash was a disaster, far out of AM’s control between an out of control star and the studio demanding changes all the time and all the whole AM was a team player and was happy to work with them and not give any pushback. He’s the type they want.

This. Personality and behind the scenes politics like this are a massive thing you have to factor into who does and does not get chosen to make these big projects. There's an obvious, massive difference of personality and working style between a Muschietti and a Matt Reeves to use easy Bat Examples - its super obvious that they want the former type on this project.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't see Andy getting any of the blame for The Flash. He is clearly extremely well liked by the studio/Gunn and regardless of how conspiratorial you want to get about the marketing it is clear they love The Flash as a movie. This project was clearly his from the moment it was conceived.

This is just kinda what everyone should have expected when they announced a more standardized shared universe. You're gonna get a particular kind of director on these, some mediocre (Muschietti) and some great (Mangold) but you're never going to get a Matt Reeves or a Nolan or frankly another James Gunn.

Everything you said here is exactly why I think he'll lose the job. This was his movie and it's an all time failure.

Also Marvel got Taika, DaCosta, Coogler, and Raimi. This is a DC issue.

 

[Boom]

I actually think the opposite is true. WB knows Flash was a disaster, far out of AM’s control between an out of control star and the studio demanding changes all the time and all the whole AM was a team player and was happy to work with them and not give any pushback. He’s the type they want.

This sounds right.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I'm anticipating some bold, interesting movies out of the DCU - hopefully - but this was never gonna be one of them. It's too important in the architecture of a shared universe. This always seemed like an obvious one to be very, very carefully managed.

 

[Eddie Dean]

I'm also willing to bet that "Get through Flash and you can have Batman" is a conversation that happened.