The Brave and the Bold News and Discussion Thread

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

Shout-out to WB for making a Batman movie based on my favorite run of all time and making me completely uninterested in it!

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I'm also willing to bet that "Get through Flash and you can have Batman" is a conversation that happened.

Yeah, Andy was being courted as a major player for DC by WB for awhile. Remember he was circling Man Of Steel 2 in the five minutes that was a project? Didn't that same big article also mention him being floated for that final DCEU cast JL movie they considered?

They love him.

 

[Boom]

Get Jeremy Carver or Drew Goddard on the script and make it a swashbuckling, globetrotting, James Bond-style movie where the Bat Family get caught up in an Al Ghul family blood feud.

 

[Invader Joker]

This terrible Cinemascore which measures the audience's enjoyment of the film can absolutely be put on Muschietti. It's tracking to be one of the worst superhero flops in recent history. It is the worst Cinemascore DC has received since BvS. He is not gonna keep this job and yes, he is largely responsible for the failure of The Flash.

Even if Gunn wanted to keep him, no one in their right mind would put 200 million into a Muschietti Brave and the Bold after this. It's done.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I really feel we've hit the denial stage of grief here.

 

[Invader Joker]

I really feel we've hit the denial stage of grief here.

How, dude? This is genuinely as bad as it could've ever gone for The Flash. It's one of the worst Cinemascores a CBM in general has ever received. I keep hearing from you how Muschietti is a competent journeyman that surely can deliver a crowdpleaser but this clearly shows he isn't. Directors have been kicked off projects for less. You seriously think that DC Studios will be the exception?

Yeah, Andy was being courted as a major player for DC by WB for awhile. Remember he was circling Man Of Steel 2 in the five minutes that was a project? Didn't that same big article also mention him being floated for that final DCEU cast JL movie they considered?

They love him.

Losing 200 million dollars can make a studio lose their love really quickly, let me tell you that much. And Zassy doesn't strike me as the sentimental type.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

As one who has called the death of Colin's IX, Loveness at Marvel, and Snyder at DC. Let's just say Andy's going to have a lot of time to work on that Derry show. Because you can't pitch a Batman movie from the guy who is considered by auidences to have made one of the worst comic book movies of all time.

 

[Invader Joker]

As one who has called the death of Colin's IX, Loveness at Marvel, and Snyder at DC. Let's just say Andy's going to have a lot of time to work on that Derry show. Because you can't pitch a Batman movie from the guy who is considered by auidences to have made one of the worst comic book movies of all time.

Also with how much Zaslav stood by The Flash, you'd have to imagine he's probably very embarrassed right now by this result. And I can't imagine someone like him would just let this slide no problem. He probably wants Muschietti where he can't even see him.

Loveness is a good example because he's also someone that you could make the "but they were just doing their job and the studio loves him!!!!" argument, and that meant absolutely nothing once Quantumania failed, even in the context of Disney which is even more journeyman driven than WB.

Chloe Zhao is another good example too. Disney/Marvel kept hyping her up to oblivion, and they didn't even hesitate to cut ties after Eternals failed.

The love these studios have for people is extremely conditional.

 

[Lily Adler]

Also with how much Zaslav stood by The Flash, you'd have to imagine he's probably very embarrassed right now by this result. And I can't imagine someone like him would just let this slide no problem. He probably wants Muschietti where he can't even see him.

Loveness is a good example because he's also someone that you could make the "but they were just doing their job and the studio loves him!!!!" argument, and that meant absolutely nothing once Quantumania failed, even in the context of Disney which is even more journeyman driven than WB.

Chloe Zhao is another good example too. Disney/Marvel kept hyping her up to oblivion, and they didn't even hesitate to cut ties after Eternals failed.

The love these studios have for people is extremely conditional.

The man who gave us MILF Manor?

 

[Invader Joker]

The man who gave us MILF Manor?

Found Muschietti's next job.

 

[Invader Joker]

Here's a list with every single Marvel and DC film with a B Cinemascore, and what happened with their directors afterwards:

Batman Returns: Tim Burton got kicked out of the third movie.
Steel: Kenneth Johnson never directed a theatrical movie ever again, just TV.
Daredevil/Ghost Rider: After that one two punch where both CBM he directed did a B cinemascore, he never directed a blockbuster film again.
Catwoman 2004: Pitof never directed a film again.
Elektra: Rob Bowman never directed a film again.
Fantastic Four/Fantastic Four Rise of the Silver Surfer: It took 14 years before Tim Story directed anything close to a blockbuster again... in the form of Tom & Jerry with a 50-80 million dollar budget.

And now closer to modern times...

Green Lantern: Martin Campbell hasn't directed a blockbuster again after that.
Batman v Superman: Zack Snyder got all his creative control taken away afterwards and eventually got kicked out and replaced in the middle of JL.
Eternals: Even with Kevin Feige hyping her up to heavens and beyond, all of the Eternals plans got put on a massive limbo and Chloe Zhao is unlikely to ever direct a MCU movie again, or a blockbuster in general.
Ant-Man and the Wasp Quantumania: Jeff Loveness got kicked out of Avengers. If I had to guess Peyton Reed is not getting another MCU movie.

 

[Eddie Dean]

I need you to take some deep breaths.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

This basically sums up why Muschietti will keep his job on Brave and the Bold, no matter how The Flash performs. He has definitely been a good little soldier for WB over the years.


Now, whether Muschietti will stay of his own volition after all this, is another matter entirely. He might be a bit like Sandberg and want to jump back into the comfort (and less financially stressful space) of horror movies.

 

[Hurm...]

The bigger question for me is: With the amount of money Muschietti made WB with IT, are they willing to accept The Flash underperforming — considering the wild success he’s had beforehand? That’s the only reason I could see them keeping him for this.

 

[Invader Joker]

This basically sums up why Muschietti will keep his job on Brave and the Bold, no matter how The Flash performs. He has definitely been a good little soldier for WB over the years.


Now, whether Muschietti will stay of his own volition after all this, is another matter entirely. He might be a bit like Sandberg and want to jump back into the comfort (and less financially stressful space) of horror movies.

Being a loyal soldier is useless if you've been a soldier that just lost them reputation and millions of dollars. Studios will always value the almighty dollar and brand reputation more than loyalty. If they can have all 3, great. If not...

The bigger question for me is: With the amount of money Muschietti made WB with IT, are they willing to accept The Flash underperforming — considering the wild success he’s had beforehand? That’s the only reason I could see them keeping him for this.

They'll keep him for more mid budget horror stuff is my guess.

Also the guess that Muschietti might drop out on his own is a good one too. This must be hurting right now, especially because he did spend 4 years on it. There are probably financial bonuses he was counting on that he's now not gonna receive so it sucks for him all around too and he's probably thinking about whether he really wants to go through all this again.

 

[J.Drangal]

Yeah I was about to say that a good soldier might not necessarely make a big hit but he still manages to bring some money for the studios with impeccable PR, no drama behind the stages, etc. Here, it's already something else...

But there's a history of directors "failing upward" at DC/WB, so who knows...
And I still believe Gunn might have trouble finding partners for this big DCU adventures seeing where the licence (and the genre, save for a handful of project) is now.

 

[BatsAndNights]

I think it's 50/50 whether Andy keeps his job for Brave and the Bold. It just depends on how much WB believes the quality of the movie can be explained via the extenuating circumstances vs Andy's talent as a director.

If Andy keeps his job and Brave and the Bold crashes and burns, however, it's absolute curtains for him.

 

[Invader Joker]

Yeah I was about to say that a good soldier might not necessarely make a big hit but he still manages to bring some money for the studios with impeccable PR, no drama behind the stages, etc. Here, it's already something else...

But there's a history of directors "failing upward" at DC/WB, so who knows...
And I still believe Gunn might have trouble finding partners for this big DCU adventures seeing where the licence (and the genre, save for a handful of project) is now.

Sometimes directors fail upwards, but not with a B Cinemascore. B Cinemascore is pretty much a blockbuster death sentence no matter who it is. No one wants to invest in that.

WBD doesn't have any money right now. They're gonna need investment partners; they won't find them with Andy, even if Gunn is genuinely hyped on him his hand will be forced.

I think it's 50/50 whether Andy keeps his job for Brave and the Bold. It just depends on how much WB believes the quality of the movie can be explained via the extenuating circumstances vs Andy's talent as a director.

If Andy keeps his job and Brave and the Bold crashes and burns, however, it's absolute curtains for him.

The problem is that Andy can't excuse himself on the extenuating circumstances too much. They didn't affect anything except the ending of the movie, and while a terrible opening weekend could be explained with the extenuating circumstances, a B Cinemascore can't as it is a measurement of an audience's enjoyment of a movie right after seeing it. I really think people are understimating how bad of a mark this is for him.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

The Flash is also clearly 100% a work for hire job, it really does feel like a movie where Andy clearly was mostly just doing what the studio told him to do. I think the decisions that were clearly Muschietti's def made the movie worse but there's no guarantee that is the perception of the studio - for all we know the perception is that he was just doing his job executing the regime's plan to set up the then-future of the DCEU on a troubled project that had a million things going against it. We are not privy to this part of DC/WB's internal politics.

There is no universe in which I believe The Flash was 100% ground up Muschietti's baby. It so clearly is not that kind of movie. It is a two and a half hour checklist of set up for future movies that are no longer happening.

Again, not defending the choice of him to make this movie he's a weak choice but I genuinely could not care less and am not really sure what the point of investing in this movie is in the first place - I just think its a less B&W situation than "Oh obviously he'll be fired now".

 

[Invader Joker]

The Flash is also clearly 100% a work for hire job, it really does feel like a movie where Andy clearly was mostly just doing what the studio told him to do. I think the decisions that were clearly Muschietti's def made the movie worse but there's no guarantee that is the perception of the studio - for all we know the perception is that he was just doing his job executing the regime's plan to set up the then-future of the DCEU on a troubled project that had a million things going against it. We are not privy to this part of DC/WB's internal politics.

There is no universe in which I believe The Flash was 100% ground up Muschietti's baby. It so clearly is not that kind of movie. It is a two and a half hour checklist of set up for future movies that are no longer happening.

Again, not defending the choice of him to make this movie he's a weak choice but I genuinely could not care less and am not really sure what the point of investing in this movie is in the first place - I just think its a less B&W situation than "Oh obviously he'll be fired now".

If you hire an architect to build a house and then that house crumbles down you're more than likely not hiring that architect again. Also none of the other previous movies I mentioned with a B Cinemascore are purely the director's babies either except for maybe Batman Returns lmao They still got their heads chopped off for it.

 

[J.Drangal]

Sometimes directors fail upwards, but not with a B Cinemascore. B Cinemascore is pretty much a blockbuster death sentence no matter who it is. No one wants to invest in that.

Oh yeah, and fortunately so!

In my post, I wanted to be sarcastic about how Snyder, who, despite his cinemascore B on BvS, was kept on for Justice League, which I believe began shooting within ten days of its release.
We're in a bit of a similar situation now. A movie crashes and burns and at the same time its director is announced with great fanfare for the studio's next big project...

Déjà vu.

The Flash is also clearly 100% a work for hire job, it really does feel like a movie where Andy clearly was mostly just doing what the studio told him to do. I think the decisions that were clearly Muschietti's def made the movie worse but there's no guarantee that is the perception of the studio - for all we know the perception is that he was just doing his job executing the regime's plan to set up the then-future of the DCEU on a troubled project that had a million things going against it. We are not privy to this part of DC/WB's internal politics.

There is no universe in which I believe The Flash was 100% ground up Muschietti's baby. It so clearly is not that kind of movie. It is a two and a half hour checklist of set up for future movies that are no longer happening.

Again, not defending the choice of him to make this movie he's a weak choice but I genuinely could not care less and am not really sure what the point of investing in this movie is in the first place - I just think its a less B&W situation than "Oh obviously he'll be fired now".

Pure speculation, but I wonder if Muschietti didn't have some sort of deal, which was to "save the Flash" and be offered the originally planned "Crisis" movie or something...
With all that falling through, he was probably quick to throw his name in the hat for Brave and the Bold, and Warner may have seen him as a safe choice. Well, at least until now...
Very curious to see how things develop...

 

[Boom]

I'm sure WB already had an idea internally of what The Flash was looking to do this weekend and it wasn't great. They hired him anyway.

They're not going to suddenly reverse a decision they made days ago. They're also not going waste months of time and resources to perpetuate the illusion of Muschetti staying on when they have every intention of removing him. If they move forward with him here in these coming months, it's because they're actually going to give him a fair shake at the job.

Just saying. Some of you might want to make peace with the idea of him seeing this through to the end.

 

[Invader Joker]

I'm sure WB already had an idea internally of what The Flash was looking to do this weekend and it wasn't great. They hired him anyway.

They're not going to suddenly reverse a decision they made days ago. They're also not going waste months of time and resources to perpetuate the illusion of Muschetti staying on when they have every intention of removing him.

Just saying. Some of you might want to make peace with the idea of him seeing this through to the end.

I really don't think they saw it being this bad. Maybe they believed the Deadline 70 million opening estimate which would have somewhat given them a way to break even or get a good chunk of their money back (after all, that was the industry's estimate) I don't think they foresaw the B Cinemascore and the under 60 million opening.

Also I don't get this notion that studio execs are these incredibly loyal human beings when it's kinda obvious they're not. They'd probably imprison their own mother if she lost them 200 million dollars and tarnished their brand. There's been countless examples of directors getting ditched over even less regardless of how much a studio hyped them up prior.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

Even Andy aside, having two live action Batman franchises competing simultaneously always seemed like a bad idea.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I'm sure WB already had an idea internally of what The Flash was looking to do this weekend and it wasn't great. They hired him anyway.

They're not going to suddenly reverse a decision they made days ago. They're also not going waste months of time and resources to perpetuate the illusion of Muschetti staying on when they have every intention of removing him. If they move forward with him here in these coming months, it's because they're actually going to give him a fair shake at the job.

Just saying. Some of you might want to make peace with the idea of him seeing this through to the end.

Yep. It is always possible he doesn't wind up helming it but I really feel like people are overestimating the likelihood he gets fired from it because they don't want him to direct it. Given some of Gunn's comments about Muschietti being involved way back when you have to assume he's been involved in the development of this project from day one and they're happy with him on it so far - I highly, highly doubt he just got hired for it.