Civil War The Civil War "ANYTHING GOES" Thread - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK - NO SPOILER TAGS REQ.! - Part 1

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]512983[/split]

 

[JOE]

"Hey everyone."

We were talking in the "spoiler" thread about whether there should be tags or not. I made a thread SPECIFICALLY for talking freely about spoilers WITHOUT needing spoiler tags.

With the premiere tonight and the embargo lifting within the next 12 hours this thread is bound to be SPOILERIFIC.

The warning is in the title, BE WARNED! t:

AGAIN! Final warning! This thread may ruin the movie and or your life!

 

[TalismanRing]

If anything, that final fight with Cap vs. Iron Man seemed like two people who really wanted to hurt each other. And with good reason for both.

Steve didn't want to hurt Tony but stop him from trying to kill Bucky and knew that meant taking Tony out but not killing him. And while Tony was angry with Steve for what he didn't tell him and who he chose his main target of rage was initially Bucky and Steve's in the way which is making him angrier. It's why it's all so heartbreaking.

I have to say Bucky looking so vicious in the fight when Tony goes after him instead of looking like he regretted what he was doing but trying to defend himself didn't endear the character to me. As soon as Tony says "You killed my Mom" Bucky should have been a bleeping guilt ridden emotional mess.

But I need to watch it again to see all the dynamics and if it was at that point more about anger that Tony was hurting Steve. Even so. More guilt man.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Because he knew Tony would react violently even though Bucky couldn't help his actions because of mind control. Cap's decision makes sense to protect his friend. But I guess this is why the ending is "controversial".

Edit: If anyone Tony should be mad at Hydra.

Watching a man, who happens to be standing right next to you, strangle your mother is tough for anyone to overcome regardless of what made that man strangle your mother.

Caps reasoning not to sign the accords also didn't jive with me so I already was on Team Ironman. Nothing in the movie made me change my mind. In fact, nothing in the movie came close to changing my mind.

 

[DN91]

I think it's pretty clear due to having witnessed governments being compromised by either subversive terror groups or individuals with their own agendas, Steve has some trepidation about signing the Accords. He doesn't want to end up potentially falling under the authority of somebody who might be a bad guy in disguise or someone more interested in their own political games than the greater good Steve wants to fight for.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Power meter from the airport battle: (imo)

1. Scarlet Witch
2. Vision
3. Spider-man
4. Ant-man
5. Captain America
6. Black Panther
7. Iron Man
8. Bucky
9. War Machine
10. Falcon
11. Black Widow
12. Hawkeye

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Steve didn't want to hurt Tony but stop him from trying to kill Bucky and knew that meant taking Tony out but not killing him. And while Tony was angry with Steve for what he didn't tell him and who he chose his main target of rage was initially Bucky and Steve's in the way which is making him angrier. It's why it's all so heartbreaking.

I have to say Bucky looking so vicious in the fight when Tony goes after him instead of looking like he regretted what he was doing but trying to defend himself didn't endear the character to me. As soon as Tony says "You killed my Mom" Bucky should have been a bleeping guilt ridden emotional mess.

But I need to watch it again to see all the dynamics and if it was at that point more about anger that Tony was hurting Steve. Even so. More guilt man.

I think all three were out for blood in that final showdown. Once Zemo played his ace in the hole, Tony was having nothing Bucky or Steve were offering. At the end, once Tony took out Bucky, Steve sure looked like he wanted to end Tony.

 

[TalismanRing]

Tony wanted Bucky dead and he wasn't dead yet and Steve knew at that moment Tony wasn't going to stop until he was. If Steve wanted to end Tony then he would have and could have. Instead he disabled his arc reactor.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Tony wanted Bucky dead and he wasn't dead yet and Steve knew at that moment Tony wasn't going to stop until he was. If Steve wanted to end Tony then he would have and could have. Instead he disabled his arc reactor.

There was a moment where that shield could have gone 6 inches higher. Steve's conscious got the better of him.

 

[TalismanRing]

I think it's pretty clear due to having witnessed governments being compromised by either subversive terror groups or individuals with their own agendas, Steve has some trepidation about signing the Accords. He doesn't want to end up potentially falling under the authority of somebody who might be a bad guy in disguise or someone more interested in their own political games than the greater good Steve wants to fight for.

Exactly, it's all brought up in the first discussion when Rhodey says the UN isn't like SHIELD, WSC and HYDRA - all corrupt. We only have to look at the our real life UN Security Counsel to know there are more often political rather than humanitarian agendas when it comes to saving and helping people in need.

Even so, Steve was willing to compromise and was on the verge of signing after his talk with Tony provided there were some stipulations - and that Bucky got psychological help instead being on the kill list.

But then it all went pear shaped when he found out Wanda was under house arrest and then Bucky went on a rampage after being triggered - and then Steve found out there was some big conspiracy afoot which he later tried to tell Tony about at the airport but he wasn't listening (at the time).

 

[starscream]

Cap above IM in feats ? And is Wanda beefing up for her team work with Strange in IW ?

 

[TalismanRing]

There was a moment where that shield could have gone 6 inches higher. Steve's conscious got the better of him.

I think it's a moment comic book readers see because it happened like that in the comics rather than than what actually happened on screen. Tony has fear that it was going to happen but I didn't see that in any of Steve's actions. There just isn't the anger for Tony from Steve that existed in the comic arc to support that characterization and Steve is hardly the kind of character to get carried away by heat of the battle blood lust. He's not Thor or the Winter Soldier.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Cap above IM in feats ? And is Wanda beefing up for her team work with Strange in IW ?

Just remember, this is a Captain America movie.

 

[am_I_hydra]

As for Spider-man, Tony had youtube videos of Spider-man in action in NYC. It doesn't really detail how Tony knew it was Peter. Peter said that only Tony knew he was Spider-man and Tony kept Peter in check with threats to call Aunt May.

I was wondering if you could elaborate on this? So, you said that Peter said only Tony knows. Who does he say that to and when? And you also say Tony kept him in check with threats to call Aunt May, are we talking like legitimate threats or in more of light manner? And does he use threats like that more than once? I saw on a thread somewhere else that he threatens to tell Aunt May about Peter being Spider-Man but there it sounded more like it was just an off-hand comment and not a serious threat. So I guess I'm just wondering what the situation is with that. And also why would he need to threaten him, seriously or not? Does Peter not want to help him? Last thing, do we actually get to see the videos of Spider-Man or are they just mentioned?

 

[regnak]

Cap above IM in feats ? And is Wanda beefing up for her team work with Strange in IW ?

A little perspective is called for. There is something called power creep in comics where the heroes get stronger over time. In an early comic i read back in the 70s Cap&IM fought do to the trickery of the Chameleon and IIRC Cap clearly got the better of old shell head before the villain was revealed. Also Spider-Man early on had as enemies 3 thugs. One had a lasso, another was a maybe 7' tall strongman called Moose IIRC and the 3rd guy I forget his specialty.

My point is that in the MU proper IM & SM benefited from power creep and have gotten much more powerful over the years. MU Cap nowhere near as much.

However in the MCU Cap's power has been allowed to grow so the gap between him, IM & SM is a lot less than the comics.

 

[winterpanther]

Does Bucky's metal arm get taken off by Tony like some were speculating?

 

[BETArayBill]

Does Bucky's metal arm get taken off by Tony like some were speculating?

The unibeam takes it off when he try's to rip out the arc reactor.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Does Bucky's metal arm get taken off by Tony like some were speculating?

When Bucky is trying to take the reactor out, Tony hits him with the energy blast.

 

[DallasGrrrl]

I am so ready for this movie. I just need to know two things at this point:

1. Why is Vision dressed like my Dad in that one shot where they all appear to be in an office?

2. Do we get to see Clint and Scott having a road trip sing-a-long on the way to Cap because they daughters both force them to do that at home? Belting out Let it Go or Do You Wanna Build a Snowman?

I feel confident I know the answer to #2, sadly, but #1 still interests me.

 

[TalismanRing]

A little perspective is called for. There is something called power creep in comics where the heroes get stronger over time. In an early comic i read back in the 70s Cap&IM fought do to the trickery of the Chameleon and IIRC Cap clearly got the better of old shell head before the villain was revealed. Also Spider-Man early on had as enemies 3 thugs. One had a lasso, another was a maybe 7' tall strongman called Moose IIRC and the 3rd guy I forget his specialty.

My point is that in the MU proper IM & SM benefited from power creep and have gotten much more powerful over the years. MU Cap nowhere near as much.

However in the MCU Cap's power has been allowed to grow so the gap between him, IM & SM is a lot less than the comics.

Tony's repulsors are also better at killing than stopping or slowing down and he doesn't want to kill in the main fight. In the end fight they're in close quarters where can't get up and fly away and take a clear shot and they're in hand to hand combat which Cap excels at. The shield is also an excellent answer to Tony's repulsors as we've seen as far back as The Avengers.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

I was wondering if you could elaborate on this? So, you said that Peter said only Tony knows. Who does he say that to and when? And you also say Tony kept him in check with threats to call Aunt May, are we talking like legitimate threats or in more of light manner? And does he use threats like that more than once? I saw on a thread somewhere else that he threatens to tell Aunt May about Peter being Spider-Man but there it sounded more like it was just an off-hand comment and not a serious threat. So I guess I'm just wondering what the situation is with that. And also why would he need to threaten him, seriously or not? Does Peter not want to help him? Last thing, do we actually get to see the videos of Spider-Man or are they just mentioned?

Tony took a mentor approach to Peter. Tony was at Peter's house flirting with hot Aunt May while Peter came home from school. Tony gets some alone time with Peter under the guise of a scholarship offer and that's when Tony confronts him about Spider-man and Peter finally admits it and tells Tony that no one else knows. He's had the powers for about 6 months. He was seen in the videos in the home made kit. As Tony leaves, he takes the homemade suit with him and the next time we see Spidey is the airport scene. Tony's "threats" to tell Aunty May weren't serious. Just a little "I'm going to call Aunt May" jibs.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

I am so ready for this movie. I just need to know two things at this point:

1. Why is Vision dressed like my Dad in that one shot where they all appear to be in an office?

2. Do we get to see Clint and Scott having a road trip sing-a-long on the way to Cap because they daughters both force them to do that at home? Belting out Let it Go or Do You Wanna Build a Snowman?

I feel confident I know the answer to #2, sadly, but #1 still interests me.

1. Trying to get in touch with his human side. That's his character arc in the film.

2. First you see of Ant-man is him coming out of the van, so sadly no.

 

[am_I_hydra]

Tony took a mentor approach to Peter. Tony was at Peter's house flirting with hot Aunt May while Peter came home from school. Tony gets some alone time with Peter under the guise of a scholarship offer and that's when Tony confronts him about Spider-man and Peter finally admits it and tells Tony that no one else knows. He's had the powers for about 6 months. He was seen in the videos in the home made kit. As Tony leaves, he takes the homemade suit with him and the next time we see Spidey is the airport scene. Tony's "threats" to tell Aunty May weren't serious. Just a little "I'm going to call Aunt May" jibs.

Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up! Could you tell me if Spider-Man is mentioned at any point? I'm gathering that he's only in two scenes, the one at his house and then the airport fight, but I'm just wondering if Tony tells anyone about him or something at another point? Also, what are everyone's reactions when Spider-Man shows up and his is entrance the same as in the trailer or do they change it?

 

[Iron_Stark]

Haven't read any spoilers, don't really want to read any but my only question is to those that have seen it and read the comic:

Does Tony come off as mustache twirling villain like in the comics? Or do the writers do an equal job of showing his stance without him coming off like a *****e like in the comics?

 

[Endeavor]

Haven't read any spoilers, don't really want to read any but my only question is to those that have seen it and read the comic:

Does Tony come off as mustache twirling villain like in the comics? Or do the writers do an equal job of showing his stance without him coming off like a *****e like in the comics?

Not at all
Not only does Tony not come off as a *****e, his POV has validity.
I came in strongly on Cap's side and at some points I doubted my stance.