The Dark Knight (2008) vs Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[Awest66]

I say this as one of the biggest Nolan/TDK fans around here... but Cap’s send off is better handled.

...oh, and now The Dark Knight has beaten the biggest grossing superhero of all time... can we quit with the vs Dark Knight threads?

Nothing is going to beat it. Its legacy is ingrained into the public consciousness and that’s never going to change, no matter how much folks want their favourite movie to go over it.

Well as you've said before, You're ideal ending to TDK trilogy would've been another round of Bruce resigning himself to being Batman until the day he dies (much to poor Alfred's chagrin) so am I wrong in saying that factors a lot into your comparison here?

I do agree about The Dark Knight comparisons though, That's absolutely fair.

 

[Nemeres]

I think Endgame earns extra credit for its romance-centered happy ending. Those are rare and far between, since most superhero flicks will opt for the ol' satisfying-albeit-bittersweet epilogue. I'd rank my Big 3 as follows:

1) Spider-Man 2
2) Endgame
3) TDKR

Endgame might steal #1 upon subsequent viewings. Granted, SM2 isn't capping off a series. But it might as well.

 

[Zarex]

TDK out polling Endgame - and Avengers, Black Panther, Wars both Civil and Infinite and every other frikkin' comic book movie that's ever been made or ever will be made until the heat death of the universe - is this board's version of Jethro Tull winning the Grammy for Best Hard Rock/Metal Performance over Metallica.

 

[FunkMiller]

Well as you've said before, You're ideal ending to TDK trilogy would've been another round of Bruce resigning himself to being Batman until the day he dies (much to poor Alfred's chagrin) so am I wrong in saying that factors a lot into your comparison here?

I do agree about The Dark Knight comparisons though, That's absolutely fair.

Yep. Bruce’s end in TDKR is out of character. Being Batman is to be permanently involved in tragedy. That’s one of the reasons the character is so compelling. His obsession will never allow him to quit. Nolan should have killed him.

In Nolan’s desire to tell a closed off narrative, with a happy ending, he strays too far from the source material, in a way he did not do in the previous movies. Now... I get why he did it, and my opinion is probably the minority, and the movie made over a billion... but it’s the wrong ending for Batman’s character, imo.

Whereas, Cap’s ending fits both the MCU version of the character, and his comic counterpart. Ergo, better ending.

(I need to point the next person who accuses me of being a complete Nolan mark to this post. He’s my favourite film maker, but I think even he drops the ball a bit on his Batman characterisation at the end).

 

[Samuron]

TDK out polling Endgame - and Avengers, Black Panther, Wars both Civil and Infinite and every other frikkin' comic book movie that's ever been made or ever will be made until the heat death of the universe - is this board's version of Jethro Tull winning the Grammy for Best Hard Rock/Metal Performance over Metallica.

Yep; it really borders on cultlike at this point.

 

[TraditionalHero]

First ever post here guys, happy to join the community.

In the end I have to go with TDK. Endgame is a lot of fun but TDK is just deeper and more powerful as a film.

Obviously in terms of spectacle and being a pure comic book nerdgasm Endgame wins in a landslide, so if that's what someone favors above all then I can understand why they would pick it.

 

[Mandon Knight]

First ever post here guys, happy to join the community.

In the end I have to go with TDK. Endgame is a lot of fun but TDK is just deeper and more powerful as a film.

Obviously in terms of spectacle and being a pure comic book nerdgasm Endgame wins in a landslide, so if that's what someone favor above all then I can understand why they would pick it.

Welcome TH, hope you have a great time here and enjoy the threads and boards and the gang

 

[Iceman]

First ever post here guys, happy to join the community.

In the end I have to go with TDK. Endgame is a lot of fun but TDK is just deeper and more powerful as a film.

Obviously in terms of spectacle and being a pure comic book nerdgasm Endgame wins in a landslide, so if that's what someone favors above all then I can understand why they would pick it.

Welcome to the Hype! And a nice, well balanced first post.

 

[psylockolussus]

Endgame. fun, exciting, emotional and jam packed with action.

Dark Knight was too serious imo. If I have to pick the most overrated cb film, it certainly takes a cake. Logan comes second.

 

[TraditionalHero]

Endgame. fun, exciting, emotional and jam packed with action.

Dark Knight was too serious imo. If I have to pick the most overrated cb film, it certainly takes a cake. Logan comes second.

As much as I like TDK, that's what bugs me about it the most. No one in the movie is having any fun except Joker, just one of the many reasons why he is the best thing in the film.

I know it goes completely against Nolan's style but I would have enjoyed it more if it were just a bit more snappy.

 

[FunkMiller]

First ever post here guys, happy to join the community.

In the end I have to go with TDK. Endgame is a lot of fun but TDK is just deeper and more powerful as a film.

Obviously in terms of spectacle and being a pure comic book nerdgasm Endgame wins in a landslide, so if that's what someone favors above all then I can understand why they would pick it.

Welcome along!

Yep; it really borders on cultlike at this point.

Nothing says cult like, like the agreement of the majority!

 

[Awest66]

Yep. Bruce’s end in TDKR is out of character. Being Batman is to be permanently involved in tragedy. That’s one of the reasons the character is so compelling. His obsession will never allow him to quit. Nolan should have killed him.

In Nolan’s desire to tell a closed off narrative, with a happy ending, he strays too far from the source material, in a way he did not do in the previous movies. Now... I get why he did it, and my opinion is probably the minority, and the movie made over a billion... but it’s the wrong ending for Batman’s character, imo.

Whereas, Cap’s ending fits both the MCU version of the character, and his comic counterpart. Ergo, better ending.

(I need to point the next person who accuses me of being a complete Nolan mark to this post. He’s my favourite film maker, but I think even he drops the ball a bit on his Batman characterisation at the end).

On the subject of Bruce retiring, This is my favorite quote from Christopher Nolan himself.

For me, The Dark Knight Rises (2012) is specifically and definitely the end of the Batman story as I wanted to tell it, and the open-ended nature of the film is simply a very important thematic idea that we wanted to get into the movie, which is that Batman is a symbol. He can be anybody, and that was very important to us. Not every Batman fan will necessarily agree with that interpretation of the philosophy of the character, but for me it all comes back to the scene between Bruce Wayne and Alfred in the private jet in Batman Begins (2005), where the only way that I could find to make a credible characterization of a guy transforming himself into Batman is if it was as a necessary symbol, and he saw himself as a catalyst for change and therefore it was a temporary process, maybe a five-year plan that would be enforced for symbolically encouraging the good of Gotham to take back their city. To me, for that mission to succeed, it has to end, so this is the ending for me, and as I say, the open-ended elements are all to do with the thematic idea that Batman was not important as a man, he's more than that. He's a symbol, and the symbol lives on.

Honestly if any version of Batman out there deserved a happy ending, It was Bale's version and I really don't see how giving Batman a happy ending conflicts with the source material anymore than with Captain America. Yes, both characters will never quit in the actual comic books because they're beholden to things like publishing dates but movies based on comic books put a finite spin on things like that all the time. I don't get why Batman isn't allowed a happy ending whereas Steve Rogers is. I think Bruce retiring is perfectly keeping in character with what Nolan set up in the previous two movies especially since he set more realistic goals for himself there.

I also take the "never ending obsession" angle of Bruce Wayne with a grain of salt as there's a dozen comics that make it quite clear he'd be happy to stop and a dozen more where he does quit being Batman (even if it's never permanent because the fans will accept nothing less)

 

[FunkMiller]

On the subject of Bruce retiring, This is my favorite quote from Christopher Nolan himself.



Honestly if any version of Batman out there deserved a happy ending, It was Bale's version and I really don't see how giving Batman a happy ending conflicts with the source material anymore than with Captain America. Yes, both characters will never quit in the actual comic books because they're beholden to things like publishing dates but movies based on comic books put a finite spin on things like that all the time. I don't get why Batman isn't allowed a happy ending whereas Steve Rogers is. I think Bruce retiring is perfectly keeping in character with what Nolan set up in the previous two movies especially since he set more realistic goals for himself there.

I also take the "never ending obsession" angle of Bruce Wayne with a grain of salt as there's a dozen comics that make it quite clear he'd be happy to stop and a dozen more where he does quit being Batman (even if it's never permanent because the fans will accept nothing less)

All more than fair points. As I say, it’s just my personal preference for an obsessive Batman who never quits, because I enjoy the tragedy of it.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Dark Knight was too serious imo. If I have to pick the most overrated cb film, it certainly takes a cake. Logan comes second.

You may be right about Logan being overly serious.

As much as I like TDK, that's what bugs me about it the most. No one in the movie is having any fun except Joker, just one of the many reasons why he is the best thing in the film.

I know it goes completely against Nolan's style but I would have enjoyed it more if it were just a bit more snappy.

Harvey and Bruce had plenty of fun in that movie.

Harvey has
"Next time, buy American"
"I make my own luck"
"I'm Batman"
"I was counting on him to save my ash"

And probably more that I missed

Bruce has the restaurant scene, the ship, Hong Kong stuff, "I need a new suit", and the penthouse scene of "I believe in Harvey Dent".
One of my favorite bits has to be "I don't wear hockey pads".

Lucius Fox also has his share of fun moments.

The movie is not as dry as a casual thriller like some still believe.



BTW, welcome to the Hype.

 

[FunkMiller]

You may be right about Logan being overly serious.


Harvey and Bruce had plenty of fun in that movie.

Harvey has
"Next time, buy American"
"I make my own luck"
"I'm Batman"
"I was counting on him to save my ash"

And probably more that I missed

Bruce has the restaurant scene, the ship, Hong Kong stuff, "I need a new suit", and the penthouse scene of "I believe in Harvey Dent".
One of my favorite bits has to be "I don't wear hockey pads".

Lucius Fox also has his share of fun moments.

The movie is not as dry as a casual thriller like some still believe.



BTW, welcome to the Hype.

Yep. The film contains - as do the other two in the series - a fair amount of humour, when you stop and think about it.

However, it is very dry humour... no surprise given how British the whole thing actually is, in terms of who made it.

 

[The Joker]

You may be right about Logan being overly serious.


Harvey and Bruce had plenty of fun in that movie.

Harvey has
"Next time, buy American"
"I make my own luck"
"I'm Batman"
"I was counting on him to save my ash"

And probably more that I missed

Bruce has the restaurant scene, the ship, Hong Kong stuff, "I need a new suit", and the penthouse scene of "I believe in Harvey Dent".
One of my favorite bits has to be "I don't wear hockey pads".

Lucius Fox also has his share of fun moments.

The movie is not as dry as a casual thriller like some still believe.



BTW, welcome to the Hype.

Exactly. Plus all the banter between Bruce and Alfred is hilarious. The Bruce Wayne playboy stuff is a hoot. Even Batman himself gets some humor moments e.g. leaving Lau unconscious outside Police HQ with a 'Please deliver to Lt. Gordon' sign stuck to his chest.

I think my favorite humor scene that doesn't involve any of the lead characters is with Fox and how he handles Reese's attempt to blackmail.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

However, it is very dry humour... no surprise given how British the whole thing actually is, in terms of who made it.

I'm not usually a fan of it that style of humor, but the crew did a fine job selling it to me.

I think my favorite humor scene that doesn't involve any of the lead characters is with Fox and how he handles Reese's attempt to blackmail.

The silent stare of that guy has to be my favorite thing in that moment.

 

[Zantera]

For me The Dark Knight takes this, it's just a tighter movie overall. Now if it was vs Infinity War instead of Endgame I might have voted differently.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Best 'funny' line for me is the exchange at the party between Alfred and Harvey about the psychotic ex-boyfriends.

 

[FunkMiller]

For me The Dark Knight takes this, it's just a tighter movie overall. Now if it was vs Infinity War instead of Endgame I might have voted differently.

Dark Knight won that one too, as I recall.

Best 'funny' line for me is the exchange at the party between Alfred and Harvey about the psychotic ex-boyfriends.

Caine is my favourite Alfred for exchanges such as these. See also... “what’s the point of all those push ups, if you can’t even lift a bloody log?”

Much prefer the less deferential Alfred.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

I say this as one of the biggest Nolan/TDK fans around here... but Cap’s send off is better handled.

...oh, and now The Dark Knight has beaten the biggest grossing superhero of all time... can we quit with the vs Dark Knight threads?

Nothing is going to beat it. Its legacy is ingrained into the public consciousness and that’s never going to change, no matter how much folks want their favourite movie to go over it.

This isn't so much about the public consciousness but about the consensus of the people here that vote. TDK has missed the top spot on plenty of occasions on lists, just as it's won many, and it's "only" at #10 on the adjusted critic score on RT, for example.

Not that any consensus means anything regarding the value of art so it's nothing to take seriously. It is only relevant to people that need others to confirm their opinions be secure in them.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Exactly. Plus all the banter between Bruce and Alfred is hilarious. The Bruce Wayne playboy stuff is a hoot. Even Batman himself gets some humor moments e.g. leaving Lau unconscious outside Police HQ with a 'Please deliver to Lt. Gordon' sign stuck to his chest.

I think my favorite humor scene that doesn't involve any of the lead characters is with Fox and how he handles Reese's attempt to blackmail.

this! That stuff with Reese still cracks me up haha. Morgan Freeman's delivery of that line was perfect!

 

[FunkMiller]

This isn't so much about the public consciousness but about the consensus of the people here that vote. TDK has missed the top spot on plenty of occasions on lists, just as it's won many, and it's "only" at #10 on the adjusted critic score on RT, for example.

Ive not seen it lose out in any polls I’ve seen in the three years I’ve been on here? Feel free to point me in the direction of one though, to set me straight.

Also, RT isn’t a barometer of overall quality, it’s a indication of whether a film was received positively or not. I prefer lists that are directly voted on by the public, or compiled by critics, rather than aggregator sites.

And you’re absolutely right, consensus doesn’t really matter as it’s all subjective. I was just pointing out that The Dark Knight is more or less universally regarded as being the best of the comic book genre, so the continuing polls are a bit pointless.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Ive not seen it lose out in any polls I’ve seen in the three years I’ve been on here? Feel free to point me in the direction of one though, to set me straight.

Also, RT isn’t a barometer of overall quality, it’s a indication of whether a film was received positively or not. I prefer lists that are directly voted on by the public, or compiled by critics, rather than aggregator sites.

And you’re absolutely right, consensus doesn’t really matter as it’s all subjective. I was just pointing out that The Dark Knight is more or less universally regarded as being the best of the comic book genre, so the continuing polls are a bit pointless.

I didn't say it had lost polls here, I was commenting on that you said these polls are about the public consciousness when it's just about the people that vote on this site, which is a very small number. If it was about the public consciousness it would win all polls everywhere, which it doesn't.

You can prefer what you want, I just gave you an example of what I was speaking about. There are plenty of other polls where TDK didn't win, which are quickly found through Google. No list is about quality though since quality in art is subjective, so you won't get past that regardless of what you choose. All lists are about what most in the voting group of people found to be the best.

You won't have any argument from me there as I think all polls are pretty uninteresting myself. They aren't pointless because TDK has many fans here though, they are pointless because aggregate opinions have no real value other than perhaps for business use. TDK does have many fans trying to make their opinions more objective through pointing to those, which is probably in part because it wins many polls.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I ultimately don't know why we're obsessed with either making sure people know TDK is the greatest CBM of all-time or alternately proving that it isn't with polling data. At the end of the day, all I care about is my own opinion. I liked Endgame more. I don't need any validation for that. I have the only validation that matters.