The Dark Knight The Dark Knight General Discussion Thread

[BatLobster]

Anybody feel somewhat sad when they think about how long ago this trilogy ended? It feels longer than 10 years, if I'm being honest. Life moves by and changes so quickly that it almost feels like it was all a dream.

A LOT has happened over the past decade, that's for sure. I know what you're saying, and I think that's a big factor in it. When you think about how rapidly technology has progressed, the craziest political turbulance of our lifetimes, a once-in-a-century event like a global pandemic, and whatever we've each been through in our personal lives between now and then...it's easy to see that the past 10 years have been a lot. Not to mention how much the genre, movies as a whole and the way we consume content has changed. At the same time, even though the trilogy ended a decade ago...it started 17 years ago. And that's objectively a long-ass time ago, haha.

We also can't forget that the trilogy felt like something of a throwback to the golden age of blockbusters. The contrast between Batman Begins and Revenge of the Sith in 2005 was massive, in terms of the amount of CGI used and their overall approaches (I love both, but it was clear as a day at the time). So I think that element makes it feel even more like an anomaly which might distort our perception a bit of how long ago it feels, especially since that heavy green screen/CGI trajectory continued with the MCU and most other blockbusters.

 

[Rick190293]

Yeah, it's a little bittersweet to think about it. But each of the three movies only gets better with time.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

I don't believe Joker would tell ANYONE (even Batman) the "real story" (and there might be a possibility that Joker is so insane that he doesn't even completely remember his own past).

But there might also be a possibility that each of the stories he told to Gambol and Rachel have elements of truth to them (Joker might have had an abusive childhood and a marriage that went south) but distorted and twisted by him for maximum effect.

I do wonder if the fan theory of him being a former military interrogator is true, and his wife that he talked about was Harleen Quinnzel (Harley Quinn), and he met her because he was seeing her for PTSD issues due to his military background, but they got in debt and involved in the Gotham mob scene and he had his "one bad day" and this universe's version of Harley is dead. Perhaps Joker also got his hands on the Clean Slate thing from Rises and used it to wipe his background from the records (if he worked in military intelligence he probably could've gotten his hands on it).

 

[Sawyer]

Oscars: Steven Spielberg On ‘Fabelmans’ Noms, ‘Indiana Jones’ Series, Box Office – Deadline

As the director of such Oscar-nominated Best Picture tentpoles like Close Encounters of the Third Kind, E.T. and Raiders of the Lost Ark, Spielberg was happy about the breakthrough of such blockbusters as Top Gun: Maverick and Avatar: The Way of Water in Oscar’s Best Picture slot, the combined two pics counting a combined global gross of $3.5 billion.

“I’m really encouraged by that. It came late for the film that should have been nominated a number of years ago, Christopher Nolan’s, The Dark Knight,” says Spielberg about Oscar’s expansion to up to ten Best Pictures nominees, “That movie would have definitely garnered a Best Picture Nomination today, so having these two blockbusters solidly presented on the top 10 list is something we should all be celebrating.”

 

[BatLobster]

I love that Spielberg is clearly a fan and still not over the snub.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I'm not over the snub either. It still bothers me

 

[J.Drangal]

I understand the prestige that an Oscar nomination could have brought, but all in all, the long list of copycat movies speaks for itself. That film started trends that are still relevant today, some of them being actually a bit overplayed at that point.

"You either die innovating, or you live long enough to become a cliché."
Or something like that.

 

[AntonGobbs89]

I'm not over the snub either. It still bothers me

I still remember watching the Oscar announcements that morning and just being in complete disbelief that it didn’t get nominated. This was back when I thought movies were Oscar nominated due to the quality of the film. Since then I’ve learned that it’s more about campaigning and how much money you put into it.

Honestly though, in a lot of ways The Dark Knight being in the library of congress is a higher honor than a Best Picture Oscar. Oddly enough it’s an achievement that isn’t shared with any of the other nominees of that year.

 

[AntonGobbs89]

I felt that in the months after The Dark Knight that it would never, ever be topped as a comic book cinematic experience.

Nothing in the intervening 14 years has changed my mind on that.

It remains the greatest cbm ever made, Chris Nolan's greatest movie, and genuinely a masterpiece of cinema.

Agreed, but it’s also kind of sad in a way. I remember walking out of this film thinking that it was going to revolutionize the genre and it really didn’t. Comic book films that were inspired by Dark Knight learned all of the wrong lessons from it. For me Days of Future Past, and Logan are the only films since then that have come remotely close to what this film is doing.

Here’s the thing though, I want this movie to be topped. I want to walk out of a new comic book movie and for it to give me the same feeling of exhilaration that this film gave me. Unfortunately, and this won’t be a popular take, I don’t see that happening until studios put aside the Cinematic universe stuff and get back to making films that are more story and character driven.

I’m not a huge fan of The Batman myself, but I thought it was a step in the right direction. It’s not connected to anything else, and an established director with a singular vision was allowed free rein. I grew up in the early 2000’s where it was possible for filmmakers of that ilk to work on projects like this. Don’t get me wrong the early 2000’s had a lot of bad comic book movies, but it was also the era of Singer’s X-Men, Del Toro’s Hellboy, Nolan’s Batman, Favreau’s Iron Man, and Raimi’s Spider-Man.

Post X2, Spider-Man 2, and Dark Knight I thought this genre was evolving. An argument could be made that it did evolve, but just went in a different direction. However, with the amount of money that comic book films make nowadays the level of quality in those three films should be the norm of the genre, but imo that’s not happening. My hope with recent news at DC is that it’s truly quality over quantity.

 

[FunkMiller]

Agreed, but it’s also kind of sad in a way. I remember walking out of this film thinking that it was going to revolutionize the genre and it really didn’t. Comic book films that were inspired by Dark Knight learned all of the wrong lessons from it. For me Days of Future Past, and Logan are the only films since then that have come remotely close to what this film is doing.

Here’s the thing though, I want this movie to be topped. I want to walk out of a new comic book movie and for it to give me the same feeling of exhilaration that this film gave me. Unfortunately, and this won’t be a popular take, I don’t see that happening until studios put aside the Cinematic universe stuff and get back to making films that are more story and character driven.

I’m not a huge fan of The Batman myself, but I thought it was a step in the right direction. It’s not connected to anything else, and an established director with a singular vision was allowed free rein. I grew up in the early 2000’s where it was possible for filmmakers of that ilk to work on projects like this. Don’t get me wrong the early 2000’s had a lot of bad comic book movies, but it was also the era of Singer’s X-Men, Del Toro’s Hellboy, Nolan’s Batman, Favreau’s Iron Man, and Raimi’s Spider-Man.

Post X2, Spider-Man 2, and Dark Knight I thought this genre was evolving. An argument could be made that it did evolve, but just went in a different direction. However, with the amount of money that comic book films make nowadays the level of quality in those three films should be the norm of the genre, but imo that’s not happening. My hope with recent news at DC is that it’s truly quality over quantity.

The problem is, the same year The Dark Knight came out, the MCU got going with Iron Man... and while the MCU has been very successful, it's also done a lot of damage to the superhero movie industry in creative terms, by creating this notion that everything must be homogenised to fit into a shared cinematic universe.

This leaves no room for the kind of auteurism brought by the likes of Nolan.

 

[Gothamsknight]

The problem is, the same year The Dark Knight came out, the MCU got going with Iron Man... and while the MCU has been very successful, it's also done a lot of damage to the superhero movie industry in creative terms, by creating this notion that everything must be homogenised to fit into a shared cinematic universe.

This leaves no room for the kind of auteurism brought by the likes of Nolan.

I don't think I could sum up my thoughts any more than this. There is this sense amongst the GA and comic book fans that were children when TDKR came out that if it's not a shared universe, then it has failed in concept alone before it even hits the big screen. That's a dangerous and limited mindset to have when it comes to film in general. Yes the MCU has been successful, but there's a lot of the movies in between the heavy hitters that are just so forgettable, which is unfortunate and people accept it.


There will never be another TDK or Raimi's Spider-Man.

 

[Matt.S99]

Unfortunately, and this won’t be a popular take, I don’t see that happening until studios put aside the Cinematic universe stuff and get back to making films that are more story and character driven.

Agreed, 100%. This is what I’ve been saying for a while now.

That’s not to say I don’t enjoy the shared universe stuff like the MCU. I absolutely do, but I find most of those kind of films don’t stand on their own.
I think this is where DC can possibly have the “one up” on Marvel.
They’re now fully realizing a shared universe and not rushing into it by throwing stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks. Cool. Awesome. We get to see our favourite heroes on screen together. Yay.
BUT
DC also has the advantage of the “Elseworlds” label. Use this to make strong, creator driven stories. Strong characters with strong stories. Your “Oscar bait” films, if you will. Much like what they’ve been doing with The Batman and Joker.

Now, I know many have their opinions on those two films. Like you mentioned, you didn’t care much for The Batman, which is fine. I loved it, but totally understand why some did not.
I did not personally care for Joker, but I understand why so many enjoyed it.

I want DC to do more of that. Maybe they aren’t the most “popular” films across the board. Maybe they’re not the most accurate to the comics. Maybe they’re a little divisive.
Who cares.
Give us some really strong films that will stand the test of time.
I think DC/WB can really have their cake and eat it too, if all this planning goes well. They can have their MCU style shared universe and also keep making the more serious/adult themed films that tend to get award recognition.

 

[BatLobster]

It almost felt like post-TDK, this polarization happened where Marvel knew that the audience's expectations for excellence in the genre were raised so high, so rather than try to compete with that bar they just ran hard in other direction. Not just in terms of being a shared universe-- that wheel was already in motion, but the films also became increasingly more comedic in tone. They trended more towards light popcorn entertainment. There's nothing wrong with that, but when they became the dominant force in Hollywood, the overall effect of that over time was pretty numbing for me.

TDK Trilogy sits in this sweet spot that few films since have been able to/or been allowed to capture. They either go darker/R-rated or super comic-booky/weird/funny. There doesn't seem to be room much in between anymore in the genre. I'd call it "gourmet popcorn", heh.

James Gunn is talking a big game about letting the filmmakers have a vision and the films not being homogenized, so we'll see what happens with his DCU. My fear is that no matter what, once you're dealing in shared universe there are a lot of creative compromises that have to be made, but I'd also love to be proven wrong and see a version of a cinematic shared universe that actually feels more cinematic.

 

[Matt.S99]

Sometimes I wish we could just go back to the simpler times of the Nolan trilogy. Come on Nolan, give us one or two more entries.

 

[squeekness]

Sometimes I wish we could just go back to the simpler times of the Nolan trilogy. Come on Nolan, give us one or two more entries.

I'd love that myself. This is my favorite version of Batman.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Sometimes I wish we could just go back to the simpler times of the Nolan trilogy. Come on Nolan, give us one or two more entries.

I'd love that myself. This is my favorite version of Batman.

Yup, same.

 

[Matt.S99]

I'd love that myself. This is my favorite version of Batman.

I’ll be honest, I don’t think we’ve ever gotten a bad Batman film. This has definitely been the strongest, though. (The Burton films will *always* be my favourite, but that doesn’t make me love these films any less. It’s too 3 for me)

I’ve been really into the “What If” idea of if this series would have continued recently, and who would be cast as certain characters. I’m not sure if that’s something anyone is really interested in anymore since were already on the second (and soon to be third) Batman after the Nolan version

But yeah, as the years go on, I appreciate this series more and more. I think the Reeves universe is more in line with what I’ve personally always wanted in a Batman film, but I still have so much love for the Nolanverse. It’s so well thought out and well acted. There’s a reason why it’s still so prevalent in pop culture.

 

[Gothamsknight]

The Nolan movies gave me everything I didn't know I wanted in a Batman movie and everything i did want to the point where a more gothic or noir approach didn't matter much to me anymore. I felt that way sitting in the theater as a teen at midnight in 2008 waiting for TDK to begin, and I feel that today as I'm gonna be turning 30 this year. Nothing has changed, and in fact it's just gotten stronger in time. That's probably why for how well made the Reeves film is, it just doesn't hit that sweet spot for me, and it's probably kind of unfair that i expect it to. Basically, what I'm trying to say is if Batman movies ended after Nolan, I wouldn't have been mad.

 

[squeekness]

The Nolan movies gave me everything I didn't know I wanted in a Batman movie and everything i did want to the point where a more gothic or noir approach didn't matter much to me anymore. I felt that way sitting in the theater as a teen at midnight in 2008 waiting for TDK to begin, and I feel that today as I'm gonna be turning 30 this year. Nothing has changed, and in fact it's just gotten stronger in time. That's probably why for how well made the Reeves film is, it just doesn't hit that sweet spot for me, and it's probably kind of unfair that i expect it to. Basically, what I'm trying to say is if Batman movies ended after Nolan, I wouldn't have been mad.

I'm the same way. These films remain the tip top for me. Though I am happy for the variety out there so that there's a film out there for everyone considering how varied the tastes are that are out there.

 

[AntonGobbs89]

Agreed, 100%. This is what I’ve been saying for a while now.

That’s not to say I don’t enjoy the shared universe stuff like the MCU. I absolutely do, but I find most of those kind of films don’t stand on their own.
I think this is where DC can possibly have the “one up” on Marvel.
They’re now fully realizing a shared universe and not rushing into it by throwing stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks. Cool. Awesome. We get to see our favourite heroes on screen together. Yay.
BUT
DC also has the advantage of the “Elseworlds” label. Use this to make strong, creator driven stories. Strong characters with strong stories. Your “Oscar bait” films, if you will. Much like what they’ve been doing with The Batman and Joker.

Now, I know many have their opinions on those two films. Like you mentioned, you didn’t care much for The Batman, which is fine. I loved it, but totally understand why some did not.
I did not personally care for Joker, but I understand why so many enjoyed it.

I want DC to do more of that. Maybe they aren’t the most “popular” films across the board. Maybe they’re not the most accurate to the comics. Maybe they’re a little divisive.
Who cares.
Give us some really strong films that will stand the test of time.
I think DC/WB can really have their cake and eat it too, if all this planning goes well. They can have their MCU style shared universe and also keep making the more serious/adult themed films that tend to get award recognition.

Completely agree, I was elated when Gunn and Safran said that they’re still open to projects that are outside of the DCU. I hope that one day Marvel Studios will do the same thing.

 

[AntonGobbs89]

For fans of this film I wanted to recommend another film you might like called The Hitcher from 1986. In recent years I couldn’t help but notice the similarities between that films antagonist (played by Rutger Hauer from Batman Begins) and Ledger’s Joker.

Nolan has seen this film and IMDB lists it as one of his favorite films, not sure how true that is though. When The Dark Knight came out I remember him being forthcoming in regards to how big of an influence Heat was, but The Hitcher also feels like it possibly played some part in the script as well. If I could ask Nolan one question it would be if he and his brother were conscious of the parallels between Dark Knight and The Hitcher when they were writing the script.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

The Nolan movies gave me everything I didn't know I wanted in a Batman movie and everything i did want to the point where a more gothic or noir approach didn't matter much to me anymore. I felt that way sitting in the theater as a teen at midnight in 2008 waiting for TDK to begin, and I feel that today as I'm gonna be turning 30 this year. Nothing has changed, and in fact it's just gotten stronger in time. That's probably why for how well made the Reeves film is, it just doesn't hit that sweet spot for me, and it's probably kind of unfair that i expect it to. Basically, what I'm trying to say is if Batman movies ended after Nolan, I wouldn't have been mad.

You and I are the same age. I was 3rd in line at my midnight showing of Knight. Felt like Christmas.

I have a weird relationship with these films. When they were first being made/released, they were my thing, 100%.

I followed their making from Day 1 with intent and fanboy-like interest. I had the Begins script a year or so before it came out. I do not remember how. I shared and traded set photos for all the films. I shared leaked images. I was on the board when the first bootleg trailer for Knight was uploaded.

Heck, I helped reveal the first Joker pic.

But after Rises, I burnt myself out on these films. Rises came out in a tough year for me, too - and a lot in that year got cast aside.

And being so far away from those films and being a big Batman fan - I started to nit-pick and almost dislike them. It's like I'd been away from them for so long, that my perception of what they were became skewed and I roasted them on what I thought they were.

Plus, I craved a more gothic, noir-like Batman that embraced more fantasy and sci-fi elements. Nolan was not that - and I suddenly deemed that meant they weren't great Batman films.

In the build-up to The Batman, some users here and other fans made me revisit these films. I aired lot of my issues/nitpicks/grievances with the films, and a lot of fans I talked to changed my mind with their perspectives and made me realize I was either wrong on a lot of what I remembered or just plain being silly.

Then I watched the films again for the first time in 5 years or maybe even longer?

And it felt like reuniting with an old friend again. And it was really, really great a gift to get these films back.

I also didn't connect with The Batman as much as I'd hoped - only because of the writing, not because it won't be 'as good' as Nolan or Burton. Everything other than the writing is most of what I've wanted in a Batman series since Nolan.

But even if I didn't connect with that film, getting my love of the Burton and Nolan films is a gift that film's release gave me that I'm super grateful for.

 

[squeekness]

For fans of this film I wanted to recommend another film you might like called The Hitcher from 1986. In recent years I couldn’t help but notice the similarities between that films antagonist (played by Rutger Hauer from Batman Begins) and Ledger’s Joker.

Nolan has seen this film and IMDB lists it as one of his favorite films, not sure how true that is though. When The Dark Knight came out I remember him being forthcoming in regards to how big of an influence Heat was, but The Hitcher also feels like it possibly played some part in the script as well. If I could ask Nolan one question it would be if he and his brother were conscious of the parallels between Dark Knight and The Hitcher when they were writing the script.

I remember seeing it ages ago (squeekness is old) and liking it. Definitely worth a watch.

 

[Matt.S99]

The Nolan movies gave me everything I didn't know I wanted in a Batman movie and everything i did want to the point where a more gothic or noir approach didn't matter much to me anymore. I felt that way sitting in the theater as a teen at midnight in 2008 waiting for TDK to begin, and I feel that today as I'm gonna be turning 30 this year. Nothing has changed, and in fact it's just gotten stronger in time. That's probably why for how well made the Reeves film is, it just doesn't hit that sweet spot for me, and it's probably kind of unfair that i expect it to. Basically, what I'm trying to say is if Batman movies ended after Nolan, I wouldn't have been mad.

I totally get that! I’m around the same age (turning 31 this year) and the Nolan films definitely had a huge impact on me, especially at the height of them. One of the few surviving photos I have from high school is me in a TDK shirt hahaha.
It was actually both the X-Men films and the Nolan Batman films that got me here on the Hype. I must have been like 12 or 13 when I joined here. Those were exciting times.
There is so much nostalgia surrounding those films, for me.
While the Burton films are my personal go to and what I grew up watching (hello, Pfeiffer as Catwoman? Queer icon), the Nolan films and the X-Men films are the first time I got to follow along with casting, rumours, and all the forum discussions. It was such an exciting time. All the photo manips and casting discussions really take me back and give me the warm and fuzzies.

Much like @OnLeatherWings, I to have a funny relationship with these films. I too, had become a little cynical and critical towards them at times. Over the last couple years though, my love for them has really come back full force.
I actually did connect with The Batman quite a lot and one of the things I’m most excited about is to see some villains we didn’t get in the Nolan series. But even with that, the Nolan films are just something else. Both the Burton series and Nolan series are just so ridiculously influential, nothing will really do what they did in the zeitgeist of pop culture. I will say, and it kind of pains me to admit this because I did LOVE the film, but I don’t think The Batman has as much rewatchability as the Nolan films. Maybe that’s mainly due to the length and pacing of the film. I always try to do a ranking of the Batman films, and besides Returns and 89, it’s hard to rank them. Some days, I prefer TB. Some days, Begins. Some days, TDK. And even some days, Rises (I love that film and I don’t care what anyone says).
I feel like we do need at least another film in the Reeves universe to *really* have that conversation, though.

(Without a doubt though, the Nolan trilogy has the best overall cast. Bar none. I may prefer some individual castings, but no other Bat-film has such a stellar cast across the board)

I’ve been rewatching this series a LOT recently (I think I’ve watched both TDK and Rises about 3 times each in the last couple months). And like I mentioned earlier, I’ve recently become really interested in the “what if” of a Nolan sequel. I realize it’s pretty much a moot idea, but I can’t help it.




I’ll be honest though: give me a good Catwoman and I’ll be pretty much satisfied

 

[BatLobster]

And like I mentioned earlier, I’ve recently become really interested in the “what if” of a Nolan sequel. I realize it’s pretty much a moot idea, but I can’t help it.

A month or so ago, I was messing around with ChatGPT to see what all the fuss was about, and one of the first exercises I tried with it was brainstorming ideas for a fourth Nolan Batman film.

At one point, it actually spit out a title that I thought was legit pretty cool: "The Dark Knight Resurgent".

Anyway, point being-- I too often daydream about a fourth Nolan movie even though I know it probably won't/shouldn't happen.

...but maybe we'll see an AI-generated version of it in our lifetimes.