The Dark Knight vs Captain America: Civil War

[The Joker]

Considering the love of his life got blown to pieces and half of his face got burned off, a complete mental breakdown is understandable.

Not to mention his rationale behind the 50/50 coin toss was that he and Rachel had the same chance of survival, so he was giving the ones he blamed the same 50/50 chance.

 

[That9neGuy]

But the character who specifically stated "HE" didn't leave things up to chance then goes on a streak of murders where he kills people who aren't involved is not the character the movie set up. If he wanted vengeance for Rachel's murder he had it. They can rationalize that anyway they want but it's still dumb.

 

[The Batman]

Exactly, he states earlier in the movie he doesn't leave things up to chance with the trick coin, but then gives the man who directly killed his girlfriend a 50/50 shot which isn't the character the movie set up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_arc

 

[Boom]

Besides, even if he never intended to actually harm Thomas, he still had absolutely no issue convincing him that he would. They made it clear that Harvey had an edge to him, particularly when it concerned his loved ones. It's all well and good to be righteous, until someone you care about gets threatened. Then you're just a man trying to protect someone you love. At whatever costs.

He wanted to keep Gordon's unit at arm's length, but ultimately he put his faith in Gordon. And how is that trust rewarded? One of Gordon's officers gets Rachel killed, and another gets Harvey maimed. For the mob.

Harvey spends the entire film trying to do things by the book. Even putting himself in the line of fire to get the Joker off the streets. But guess what? Justice doesn't get its day. The bad guys still go free, and the only thing Harvey gets to show for it is a complete heartbreaking loss.

Disillusionment, betrayal, heartbreak, anger, shock. The guy had nothing to live for anymore, and here comes a madman who simply aks the question, "You see? What's the point?" And yeah. In Harvey's mind, what was the point anymore?

 

[That9neGuy]

I see that its an arc, but its one that doesn't make in sense to me.

 

[The Joker]

When good guys become bad guys, or start to go over the edge, they tend not to have the same set of principles they used to have. I'm sure one of Harvey's law abiding practices as D.A. wasn't to abduct suspects in ambulances, tie them up, and terrorize them with a gun either. And he did all that in reaction to Rachel merely being threatened. Its like if he could do that because of a threat, imagine what he'd do if she actually got hurt or killed. Throw in the fact he got horribly mutilated and betrayed by the Cops, you have a recipe for murderous meltdown.

 

[Boom]

But the character who specifically stated "HE" didn't leave things up to chance then goes on a streak of murders where he kills people who aren't involved is not the character the movie set up. If he wanted vengeance for Rachel's murder he had it. They can rationalize that anyway they want but it's still dumb.

Yeah. He said he didn't leave things up to chance. He obviously had a change of heart following his trauma. It's a character arc. The Joker made a compelling enough case that chaos is the only true equalizer. Order is only as good as the people who make the rules. It's inherently flawed.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

When good guys become bad guys, or start to go over the edge, they tend not to have the same set of principles they used to have. I'm sure one of Harvey's law abiding practices as D.A. wasn't to abduct suspects in ambulances, tie them up, and terrorize them with a gun either. And he did all that in reaction to Rachel merely being threatened. Its like if he could do that because of a threat, imagine what he'd do if she actually got hurt or killed. Throw in the fact he got horribly mutilated and betrayed by the Cops, you have a recipe for murderous meltdown.

Precisely. It (and the physical pain of his own accident) causes him to snap. I don't see how it is so hard to believe. People in real life have cracked from less than what happened to Dent.

 

[That9neGuy]

When good guys become bad guys, or start to go over the edge, they tend not to have the same set of principles they used to have. I'm sure one of Harvey's law abiding practices as D.A. wasn't to abduct suspects in ambulances, tie them up, and terrorize them with a gun either. And he did all that in reaction to Rachel merely being threatened. Its like if he could do that because of a threat, imagine what he'd do if she actually got hurt or killed.

Once again I agree with the idea of what you are saying but he should actually get that vengeance that is standing at his bed side handing him the gun, and not just go start flipping coins to see what happens (comic book character traits notwithstanding).
He's either over the edge hungry for blood or he's not.
I'm fine with him going from 100% in the white to bloodthirsty for vengeance at love lost. What I'm not fine with is flipping coins to see who is responsible or determine their fate when you know who is responsible and can directly hold them to that.

 

[That9neGuy]

Yeah. He said he didn't leave things up to chance. He obviously had a change of heart following his trauma. It's a character arc. The Joker made a compelling enough case that chaos is the only true equalizer. Order is only as good as the people who make the rules. It's inherently flawed.

But what I disagree with is that the Joker literally set up and the kidnapping and murder of his girlfriend, there is no chaos in that. SHe wasn't a randomly chosen victim.

 

[Boom]

But what I disagree with is that the Joker literally set up and the kidnapping and murder of his girlfriend, there is no chaos in that. SHe wasn't a randomly chosen victim.

Yes, the Joker planned all along to push Harvey over the edge, but that's irrelevant. The point is Harvey was in a very vulnerable, emotional state. He's not thinking clearly. The Joker simply told him what he needed to hear.

As others had said, Harvey had a complete mental and emotional breakdown. You cannot hold a person to the faculties and principles they once had after going through such a traumatic event. The entire basis of The Killing Joke, one of the most renowned Batman stories of all time, was that all it takes is one bad day for a person to snap. This was Harvey's bad day.

 

[The Joker]

Besides, even if he never intended to actually harm Thomas, he still had absolutely no issue convincing him that he would. They made it clear that Harvey had an edge to him, particularly when it concerned his loved ones. It's all well and good to be righteous, until someone you care about gets threatened. Then you're just a man trying to protect someone you love.

He wanted to keep Gordon's unit at arm's length, but ultimately put his faith in Gordon. And how is that trust rewarded? One of Gordon's officers gets Rachel killed, and the other gets Harvey maimed. For the mob.

Harvey spends the entire film trying to do things by the book. Even putting himself in the line of fire to get the Joker off the streets. But guess what? Justice doesn't get its day. The bad guys still win, and the only thing Harvey gets to show for it is a complete heartbreaking loss.

Disillusionment, betrayal, heartbreak, anger, shock. The guy had nothing to live for anymore, and here comes a madman who simply aks the question, "You see? What's the point?" And yeah. In Harvey's mind, what was the point anymore?

Yeah. He said he didn't leave things up to chance. He obviously had a change of heart following his trauma. It's a character arc. The Joker made a compelling enough case that chaos is the only true equalizer. Order is only as good as the people who make the rules. It's inherently flawed.

Precisely. It (and the physical pain of his own accident) causes him to snap. I don't see how it is so hard to believe. People in real life have cracked from less than what happened to Dent.

Well said, gents

Once again I agree with the idea of what you are saying but he should actually get that vengeance that is standing at his bed side handing him the gun, and not just go start flipping coins to see what happens (comic book character traits notwithstanding).
He's either over the edge hungry for blood or he's not.
I'm fine with him going from 100% in the white to bloodthirsty for vengeance at love lost. What I'm not fine with is flipping coins to see who is responsible or determine their fate when you know who is responsible and can directly hold them to that.

What do you mean he's either over the edge hungry for blood or he's not? He was hungry for blood, that's why he went after these people in the first place. But vengeance is not always black and white. He was still Harvey Dent under the madness, so he had a warped sense of morality to give these people the same chance he and Rachel had. 50/50.

To see him rationalize it like that made sense. Like in that great finale scene where he says he sees now that the only morality in this cruel world is chance because its unbiased, unprejudiced, and fair.

But what I disagree with is that the Joker literally set up and the kidnapping and murder of his girlfriend, there is no chaos in that. SHe wasn't a randomly chosen victim.

Who says chaos has to be random? Joker? The guy who told Harvey he had nothing to do with Rachel's death because he was in jail when she died lol. Of course there's chaos in it. The chaos comes from using Rachel to break Dent.

 

[That9neGuy]

I guess we can agree to disagree, I see the point it's trying to get to, but I think its dumb and not a natural evolution to his character arc.

 

[The Batman]

Meh. I'm glad Nolan didn't go the generic route and have Harvey be all "You killed my girl, so I'm gonna kill you."

It was much better, and much more "Two Face" to have Harvey locate everyone who had a hand in Rachel's death, and let the coin decide their ultimate fate.

Even better was when Batman convinced Harvey that they had just as much to do with causing Rachel's death as the bad guys.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Dent explains exactly why he uses the coin.

It's not about what I want. It's about what's FAIR! You thought we could be decent men in an indecent world. You thought we could lead by example. You thought the rules could be bent, but not break. You were wrong. The world is cruel. And the only morality in a cruel world is chance. Unbiased. Unprejudiced. Fair.

 

[Boom]

That's why, to this day, I simply cannot agree when people say that Harvey's arc was rushed in this film. I think it was masterfully done. It really was the emotional anchor of the film, which is why the ending was such a gut-punch.

 

[The Joker]

I think a lot of people just wanted more Two Face. Which I can understand.

 

[That9neGuy]

I feel the opposite but it's all good, still love the movie. Just a few parts I hate.

 

[Boom]

I guess we can agree to disagree, I see the point it's trying to get to, but I think its dumb and not a natural evolution to his character arc.

There's nothing natural about having your soon-to-be-fiancée blown up while you're helplessly tied to a chair, and then having half of your face blown off.

These are extreme, soul-crushing circumstances. as Kahran said, people have had complete psychotic breakdowns over less than what Harvey went through.

 

[That9neGuy]

There is also nothing natural about killing people who didn't do it and not killing people who did, but again, it's all good.

 

[Boom]

There is also nothing natural about killing people who didn't do it and not killing people who did, but again, it's all good.

Right. Unnatural circumstances made him do unnatural things. Again, he's not in his proper faculties.

 

[The Joker]

Yeah, talking about what's 'natural' puts the whole comic book world concept under a scrutiny microscope. For instance putting on a bat costume to fight crime is not the natural reaction to losing your parents in a fatal mugging.

 

[The Batman]

I mean, what it comes down to is that now Two Face is being criticized for acting like Two Face, IMO.

 

[Visualiza]

Right. Unnatural circumstances made him do unnatural things. Again, he's not in his proper faculties.

Kinda surprised that this has to be pointed out, tbh. Always seemed pretty self-evident to me.

And to give my take on the topic at hand, Civil War isn't even the best Captain America movie, let alone the MCU's (IMO, for the opinion police among us), whereas TDK is not only the genre's very best by far (now this is a verifiable fact, so says Encyclopedia Visualiza), but is comparable to many highly esteemed films outside the genre.

 

[AlluAllu]

We should also remember that we have had TDK for 8 years and have watched it over and over. That can easily make Civil War more enjoyable now.