The Dark Knight The Dark Knight's Rogues Gallery

[Luchastyle]

Batman's Rogues Gallery is the best in all of comics. Debating that it is not is not a topic for this thread. Nolan is a filmmaker who focuses on psychology. A psychological approach to Batman's villains has become essential over the years and has created complex psyche's to seemingly simple characters. What psychological approach could be taken when developing the Joker and Harvey Dent in TDK?

This discussion contains potentially spoilerish material, discussing scenes that have been filmed and possible plot points, hence it's creation in the spoiler board, and not the non-spoiler board.

 

[CaptainClown]

ahh you cheeky devil, I see how you gots it related..

 

[Luchastyle]

ahh you cheeky devil, I see how you gots it related..

indeed.

 

[Luchastyle]

but anyway, like i was saying, and like you said, there are untapped stories and countless areas to be explored with some of these villains. with joker and two-face, maybe most things have been touched upon and can only be reinvented. but with the secondary characters, there is a whole world to explore.

 

[The Dark Guybrush]

i think we're going to be seeing a whole lot of degradation of psychological stability, the chipping away of masks of sanity, etcetera

 

[CaptainClown]

Anyway to stay on this topic, I've always felt Joker was literally so insane he isn't diagnosable. You could say he is like Hannibal, but he is much more chaotic/playful.

Two-face simple case of split personality

 

[The Dark Guybrush]

regardless, i don't see how this subject could be categorized as a spoiler.

 

[Luchastyle]

i think we're going to be seeing a whole lot of degradation of psychological stability, the chipping away of masks of sanity, etcetera

agreed. and i think while joker is losing his sanity, he will be doing his best to bring batman, gordon, and dent down with him.

Anyway to stay on this topic, I've always felt Joker was literally so insane he isn't diagnosable. You could say he is like Hannibal, but he is much more chaotic/playful.

Two-face simple case of split personality

i don't think it's quite as simple as all that. i think there is a conflict there. he knows he has the problem. he can communicate between the two personalities. i guess it depends on how you approach it. but i would argue that there is a very real, and very apparent struggle between the two sides. not just an inward struggle, but an outward one. something on the surface that harvey realizes. something he thinks he can solve on his own. he thinks his side is still in control.

 

[Luchastyle]

regardless, i don't see how this subject could be categorized as a spoiler.

say we talk about the hospital exploding, or the joker attacking the mayor at loeb's funeral. right there i revealed several plot points that those avoiding spoilers would not want to read.

 

[CaptainClown]

agreed. and i think while joker is losing his sanity, he will be doing his best to bring batman, gordon, and dent down with him.


i don't think it's quite as simple as all that. i think there is a conflict there. he knows he has the problem. he can communicate between the two personalities. i guess it depends on how you approach it. but i would argue that there is a very real, and very apparent struggle between the two sides. not just an inward struggle, but an outward one. something on the surface that harvey realizes. something he thinks he can solve on his own. he thinks his side is still in control.

Well its kinda like two sides of the same coin. They both have the same objective just goes about reaching it in a different way. but it also is difficult to figure how they are going to play dents personality

 

[NoName86]

Anyway to stay on this topic, I've always felt Joker was literally so insane he isn't diagnosable. You could say he is like Hannibal, but he is much more chaotic/playful.

Two-face simple case of split personality

And that has always been the beauty of the Joker's mentality. I forget which one, Descartes or Rousseau once said that for a man to not be a part of society he must be either animal or God. Joker is both, that's what makes him so interesting, he absolutely does not care for social order in any way, and he even pretty much promotes extreme anarchy. His disregard for human life could either be a disregard that an animal has for another animal, in that animals lack the appropriate emotions or conscious to see that killing another is wrong or right, or even of someone who is above society and it's way of thinking, particularly that order is the best for people, and that human life is worth as much as we think it is. All in all he is still a nut though.

 

[The Dark Guybrush]

say we talk about the hospital exploding, or the joker attacking the mayor at loeb's funeral. right there i revealed several plot points that those avoiding spoilers would not want to read.

how would a conversation about character psychology suddenly veer into very specific plot points?

wait, you answered my question before i even asked it.

 

[CaptainClown]

Well the way I see it, he is extremely child like but has too much intelligence for his own good. Like bruce's childhood ended when his parents died, Joker remains that child and is indifferent to the suffering of others. Though if you glance at Batman you wouldn't think much of the Joker but they really are polar opposites.

 

[Luchastyle]

Well its kinda like two sides of the same coin. They both have the same objective just goes about reaching it in a different way. but it also is difficult to figure how they are going to play dents personality

yeah, that's a good point. two sides to the same coin is the perfect analogy obviously, and the idea of law vs lawlessness is the perfect struggle for harvey. the system he believed in is somewhat responsible for his current condition. so the two-face half has no faith in justice, but harvey still believes in the law and the system.

And that has always been the beauty of the Joker's mentality. I forget which one, Descartes or Rousseau once said that for a man to not be a part of society he must be either animal or God. Joker is both, that's what makes him so interesting, he absolutely does not care for social order in any way, and he even pretty much promotes extreme anarchy. His disregard for human life could either be a disregard that an animal has for another animal, in that animals lack the appropriate emotions or conscious to see that killing another is wrong or right, or even of someone who is above society and it's way of thinking, particularly that order is the best for people, and that human life is worth as much as we think it is. All in all he is still a nut though.

yeah. that's a good point. i could see joker having a serious superiority complex. hence announcing his plans ahead of time. going on tv and telling you who he is going to kill and when. he just wants you to stop him. because in his mind, he knows that you can't. and, of course he sees no value in the life of another human being. he appears to be completely unfeeling. a classic sociopath in that sense.

700 posts. finally.

 

[Luchastyle]

Well the way I see it, he is extremely child like but has too much intelligence for his own good. Like bruce's childhood ended when his parents died, Joker remains that child and is indifferent to the suffering of others. Though if you glance at Batman you wouldn't think much of the Joker but they really are polar opposites.

they really are. so do you think the joker has no concept of right and wrong? i've always tried to wrestle with the idea that he is either crazy, or he pretends to be. he is a psychopath and heartless either way. but one way he doesn't understand the concept of right and wrong and he doesn't know what he is doing is wrong, he finds it fun and somewhat humorous. the other way, he is just a sick guy who uses the excuse of being insane in order to get around jail time, because he knows he can get out of arkham. like the ultimate killer conman.

 

[CaptainClown]

they really are. so do you think the joker has no concept of right and wrong? i've always tried to wrestle with the idea that he is either crazy, or he pretends to be. he is a psychopath and heartless either way. but one way he doesn't understand the concept of right and wrong and he doesn't know what he is doing is wrong, he finds it fun and somewhat humorous. the other way, he is just a sick guy who uses the excuse of being insane in order to get around jail time, because he knows he can get out of arkham. like the ultimate killer conman.

I think he has a mild idea of right and wrong. I don't see him as a completely ruthless. Like he would skin you for giggles. I think that is not within his list of things to do. I can't really explain his condition.. hmm gotta think about it heh

 

[Luchastyle]

I think he has a mild idea of right and wrong. I don't see him as a completely ruthless. Like he would skin you for giggles. I think that is not within his list of things to do. I can't really explain his condition.. hmm gotta think about it heh

yeah, i think everyone's joker has subtle differences. people on here often talk about him as if he is any one way. the joker has a lot of slight variances in his character, which is also what makes him such a complex and mysterious character.

 

[CaptainClown]

Ya, Joker is soo complex that he is simple. In AA the psychatrist said ya everyday he is soemthing different

 

[Luchastyle]

Ya, Joker is soo complex that he is simple. In AA the psychatrist said ya everyday he is soemthing different

i was just thinking that to myself. that if i did a joker story, one day he would say that he doesn't enjoy murder, it's just something that he finds easy and sometimes necessary. he doesn't mind doing it. then the next day he would describe in sick detail the joy he gets from murder. and his love for brutal violence. one day he tells you one thing, the next he tells you another. and maybe he does it on purpose to mess with you. maybe he is just insane. maybe he'll tell you he does it to mess with you. but maybe that's not true. he is ever changing. someone should do a story about a guy going brutally insane while attempting to put together a psych profile of the joker.

 

[CaptainClown]

Not a bad idea, start writing haha.

 

[Luchastyle]

i'll try to work on a basic outline of the story. decide whether or not the joker will be in it. probably just have the doctor reading over the extensive file in the annals of arkham. a bunch of flashbacks to the best joker stories. add in a few of my own. he can read over old interviews and listen to tapes made by other psychologists. at first he will have logical deductions to the joker's personality. drawing off his scholarly knowledge. but when his deductions begin to contradict each other he grows increasingly frustrated. but it becomes an obsession. he wants to become famous by unlocking the mysteries of the mind of the joker. ultimately it begins to eat away his sanity piece by piece. i have to work on it. but that's the idea i have right now.

 

[Nepenthes]

I'd be more interested in peoples ideas for other characters like Freeze, Ivy, Croc and Mad Hatter. Something beyond just stating the basic premise of the character...which is what usually happens in threads about new screen villains.

 

[ChickenScratch]

I like the way Morrison's Arkham Asylum tackled some of those issues of sanity/insanity within the universe. Calling Batman's villain's sanity into question is one thing but I would love for Nolan to build upon Bruce getting "Caught up in the monster he's created" and eventually himself be a little off center as the series goes on. Perfect opening to into a sidekick like Robin or Batgirl by the way, someone who brings him back in check.

 

[wikum]

I like the way Morrison's Arkham Asylum tackled some of those issues of sanity/insanity within the universe. Calling Batman's villain's sanity into question is one thing but I would love for Nolan to build upon Bruce getting "Caught up in the monster he's created" and eventually himself be a little off center as the series goes on. Perfect opening to into a sidekick like Robin or Batgirl by the way, someone who brings him back in check.

Exactly.

And I am sure that TDK will call Bruce's own sanity into question.

 

[Nepenthes]

Arkham Asylum is the only time the Mad Hatter has ever been half interesting. Or have I missed something? The fascination with fairytales and childhood actually begins to make sense with his MO.