The Detective Dilemma

[Boom]

If you're like me, you're hoping that The Batman (and any sequels that may follow) focuses more on the "world's greatest detective" aspect of the character. Affleck himself said that the best Batman stories are, at their heart, detective stories, which it certainly music to my ears.

Now, detective stories typically work best when the audience learns information as the main character does. In Se7en, we didn't learn who John Doe was until Mills and Somerset do. In Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, we didn't learn who the mole was until the very end when George Smiley pieces it all together and lays the trap. A true, hard boiled detective story maintains mystery all throughout.

So my question is this. Many of Batman's iconic foes are pretty well known. Further still, these characters are so iconic that people want to see as much of them as possible. So how do present The Riddler in a detective-based film when fans already know who he is? Or the Penguin? How do you maintain the mystery? Do you take liberties with the canon and shake things up in order to catch fans off guard (ex. someone other than Edward Nashton as the Riddler)? Do you keep the villain in a limited, behind-the-scenes kind of role (imagine Penguin with a similar amount of screentime as John Doe in Seven)? In this day and age, how do you deliver a great detective story for Batman with his better-known villains?

And to take it even further, how could you pull all of this off while taking into account that Batman is in his forties and has (presumably) encountered these foes before?

 

[Spider-Who?]

Mysteries can be more than just "who", but can also deal with "how" and "why". We don't have to be unaware of who the villain is in order for a detective story to work. And the thrill of seeing how Batman solves a case can be just as fun even if we know more than him because Batman is more than *just* a detective.

 

[shauner111]

I'd rather we, the audience, knows who it is. A lot of times the end result, the big reveal is a disappointment.

 

[Nick Morton]

If you're like me, you're hoping that The Batman (and any sequels that may follow) focuses more on the "world's greatest detective" aspect of the character. Affleck himself said that the best Batman stories are, at their heart, detective stories, which it certainly music to my ears.

Now, detective stories typically work best when the audience learns information as the main character does. In Se7en, we didn't learn who John Doe was until Mills and Somerset do. In Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, we didn't learn who the mole was until the very end when George Smiley pieces it all together and lays the trap. A true, hard boiled detective story maintains mystery all throughout.

So my question is this. Many of Batman's iconic foes are pretty well known. Further still, these characters are so iconic that people want to see as much of them as possible. So how do present The Riddler in a detective-based film when fans already know who he is? Or the Penguin? How do you maintain the mystery? Do you take liberties with the canon and shake things up in order to catch fans off guard (ex. someone other than Edward Nashton as the Riddler)? Do you keep the villain in a limited, behind-the-scenes kind of role (imagine Penguin with a similar amount of screentime as John Doe in Seven)? In this day and age, how do you deliver a great detective story for Batman with his better-known villains?

And to take it even further, how could you pull all of this off while taking into account that Batman is in his forties and has (presumably) encountered these foes before?

I highly doubt Bruce is suddenly gonna be a Detective. Hes just gonna gonna bribe people for info thats how Snyders Batman goes

 

[KillerWolf]

If you're like me, you're hoping that The Batman (and any sequels that may follow) focuses more on the "world's greatest detective" aspect of the character. Affleck himself said that the best Batman stories are, at their heart, detective stories, which it certainly music to my ears.

Now, detective stories typically work best when the audience learns information as the main character does. In Se7en, we didn't learn who John Doe was until Mills and Somerset do. In Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, we didn't learn who the mole was until the very end when George Smiley pieces it all together and lays the trap. A true, hard boiled detective story maintains mystery all throughout.

So my question is this. Many of Batman's iconic foes are pretty well known. Further still, these characters are so iconic that people want to see as much of them as possible. So how do present The Riddler in a detective-based film when fans already know who he is? Or the Penguin? How do you maintain the mystery? Do you take liberties with the canon and shake things up in order to catch fans off guard (ex. someone other than Edward Nashton as the Riddler)? Do you keep the villain in a limited, behind-the-scenes kind of role (imagine Penguin with a similar amount of screentime as John Doe in Seven)? In this day and age, how do you deliver a great detective story for Batman with his better-known villains?

And to take it even further, how could you pull all of this off while taking into account that Batman is in his forties and has (presumably) encountered these foes before?

I don't think that surprising the audience should be a problem. Just the other day I was watching a new version of "And Then There Were None", the ultimate whoddunit tale, (with Charles Dance, Toby Stephens and, Maeve Dermody who I never heard of before, but I'll keep that actress on my radar - great performance as most hateful Vera Claythorne to date) and, already knowing the entire plot and twists, I was paying attention to the way the story was crafted... at some point I realized that the killer's identity is pretty much spelled out to us early on and that there are few points in the story where if we were to stop and think for a few seconds, we'd probably put two and two together, but story never gives us those few seconds, it keeps going on and even when it slows down there are other things that demand our attention. It is actually surprisingly straightforward for detective genre and keeps us occupied rather than throw actual red herrings our way every now and then.

Now imagine it with some cleverly put red herrings... the fact that audience knows Riddler's M.O. can be used for this purpose - have the audience (and Batman) believe it is him for part of the film, and then it turns out that for whatever reason it couldn't possibly be him, so it would seem that someone is copying him... someone who knows Batman's villains as well as Batman himself. Stupid example, but you get my point, it could be either a new villain or an old one trying new approach. Keep the story engaging and keep it spinning with little twists every once in a while, making it a constant guessing game, and it can be done even if villains are already established and known to the audience (and protagonist).

What I see as a bigger problem is keeping the main villain as surprise and not have another "Batman Begins" Liam Neeson as Ra's Al Ghul or Marion Cotillard being Talia in TDKR situation... basically, it's IMDB and internet that is going to spoil it for us. Having multiple villains (most in smaller roles, with main one remaining as unknown) a la "Hush" would probably help when it comes to keeping the secret, though.