The Flash The Flash season 2 episode 15 "King Shark"

[Monsieur Xavier]

It's the Director of the Zoo !
Fifty shades of Jay !
Good episode, King Shark effects were very good for TV, Barry came with a plan alone and the reveal.

 

[Whotony]

Who said E-1's Zolomon went to E-2? Zoom found him and simply put him up to the task of lying to the team.

Actually that's a good point. we never actually Saw him come from E-2. He just walked up and said "Hi I'm Jay, from E-2".

 

[Silliminite]

Then why wouldn't E2 Wells recognize that the "Jay Garrick" there in Star Labs, isn't Jay Garrick?

What Dark Raven said.

Actually that's a good point. we never actually Saw him come from E-2. He just walked up and said "Hi I'm Jay, from E-2".

Pretty much.

 

[Babillygunn]

Still doesn't explain how any of this is paid for and maintained. The cash that would be involved would make Barry an overnight billionaire/millionaire. Even with his speed, who is maintaining that giant facility? All the exotic matter and equipment, satellite hook ups ect. that's in play each week ain't chump change.

Which brings up another question now that Diggs showed up... ARGUS was aware the whole time about Zoom... And they are cool beans with an interdimensional speed demon from another Earth being handled by five people at an abandoned research facility?

My wife and I ask almost every week, "how do Caitlyn and Cisco make money? Where does their income come from?"

But there's always questions like that with most shows.

 

[WeatherWizard99]

I am sorry to take your attention off zoom, but...

does anyone else think that supercar will give wally his superspeed ?!

 

[Nicko-Ray]

Okay, Silliminite--I like where you're going with this. But Harry knew E2 Flash prior to all this.

Help me out here..

If Wells only ever met someone who looks like Sears who claimed to be Jay but not the real Jay, then he would think the person working with them all this time is Jay when he's not.

So you're saying Harry only met "The Flash" on E2 after the switcharoo? The switcharoo claimed to have happened during the portal opening, right? But I thought The Flash E2 was established before that?

 

[Nicko-Ray]

I am sorry to take your attention off zoom, but...

does anyone else think that supercar will give wally his superspeed ?!

I think so, too.

 

[Silliminite]

Okay, Silliminite--I like where you're going with this. But Harry knew E2 Flash prior to all this.

Help me out here..


So you're saying Harry only met "The Flash" on E2 after the switcharoo? The switcharoo claimed to have happened during the portal opening, right? But I thought The Flash E2 was established before that?

The switcheroo most likely happened before "The Flash" showed up at Wells' Press Conference and revealed his identity.

I am sorry to take your attention off zoom, but...

does anyone else think that supercar will give wally his superspeed ?!

I too am wondering when and how Wally gets his speed.

 

[Nicko-Ray]

The switcheroo most likely happened before "The Flash" showed up at Wells' Press Conference and revealed his identity.



I too am wondering when and how Wally gets his speed.

Got it. I'm with this. I also think (because people are wondering) that Zoom (E2 Hunter) found his doppleganger and promised him that he'd become a speedster. At least, that's what I can come up with.

 

[mr. peasant]

Got it. I'm with this. I also think (because people are wondering) that Zoom (E2 Hunter) found his doppleganger and promised him that he'd become a speedster. At least, that's what I can come up with.

But why go through all that trouble of finding his doppelganger and creating such a convoluted charade in the first place? Plus, having Jay Garrick be a double agent using an assumed identity would be completely out of left field with no clues or foreshadowing leading up to this and a major retread of last season's villain. All of which would be really, really bad writing.

It makes far more sense that Jay Garrick is exactly who he claims he is.

Personally, my theory is that Zoom is actually an evil, future version of Earth-2 Jay - hence his comment about the complication at the end of Episode 15.

 

[Dark Raven]

Okay, Silliminite--I like where you're going with this. But Harry knew E2 Flash prior to all this.

Help me out here..


So you're saying Harry only met "The Flash" on E2 after the switcharoo? The switcharoo claimed to have happened during the portal opening, right? But I thought The Flash E2 was established before that?

Who claimed that it happened during the portal opening? I don't think anyone has ever said this on the show.

Let's say for argument's sake the real Jay Garrick looks like John Wesley Shipp. Now suppose before Wells's press conference, Garrick was kidnapped by Zoom and replaced with E2 Hunter Zolomon, who looks like Teddy Sears. Now all Zolomon has done is use Garrick's identity, but not his face. And Wells only ever meets Zolomon pretending to be Garrick, and thinks Garrick looks like Sears.

It's much like when Peter Parker stole an ID badge at the Oscorp tour in ASM1. He pretended to be Rodrigo Guevara, and since Oscorp staff had not met the real Rodrigo, they believed that he looked like the person they saw that was really Peter Parker.

If no-one had ever seen the Flash before, they would not be able to verify that Garrick actually looks like Sears and not like Shipp.

In fact, I would even go as far as to say that the speedster Wells actually met at the press conference was Zoom. That's how he had speed. He had Sears's face. So from then on, he always assumed Garrick looked like this. But afterwards, the person they were working with who didn't have speed was Zoom's doppleganger (ie another Zolomon), not the real Garrick's doppleganger.

 

[Silliminite]

Got it. I'm with this. I also think (because people are wondering) that Zoom (E2 Hunter) found his doppleganger and promised him that he'd become a speedster. At least, that's what I can come up with.

I was thinking along similar lines, involving E-1 Zolomon's destiny, but didn't think of this scenario exactly. Now that you've mentioned it, it makes perfect sense. t:

 

[Guard82]

They covered a lot of ground in this episode. I liked how this episode spent a lot of time focusing on the characters' trauma and complex emotions following the Earth-2 journey. This actually felt a lot like a third part to the two-part Earth-2 story.

King Shark looked great throughout the episode and was used very well. I also loved the way Barry defeated him in the end by using his speed to electrify the water. It was a very creative use of Barry's speedster abilities. I also enjoyed seeing Diggle and Lyla cross over from Arrow to guest-star in this episode, and I liked how Diggle gave Barry some useful advice the way he always does for Oliver.

I got a great laugh out of Caitlin doing her Killer Frost impression to freak out Cisco, lol. And with the Zoom reveal at the end, things are shaping up for some exciting stories after the show comes back from its hiatus.

 

[Nicko-Ray]

Who claimed that it happened during the portal opening? I don't think anyone has ever said this on the show.

Let's say for argument's sake the real Jay Garrick looks like John Wesley Shipp. Now suppose before Wells's press conference, Garrick was kidnapped by Zoom and replaced with E2 Hunter Zolomon, who looks like Teddy Sears. Now all Zolomon has done is use Garrick's identity, but not his face. And Wells only ever meets Zolomon pretending to be Garrick, and thinks Garrick looks like Sears.

It's much like when Peter Parker stole an ID badge at the Oscorp tour in ASM1. He pretended to be Rodrigo Guevara, and since Oscorp staff had not met the real Rodrigo, they believed that he looked like the person they saw that was really Peter Parker.

If no-one had ever seen the Flash before, they would not be able to verify that Garrick actually looks like Sears and not like Shipp.

In fact, I would even go as far as to say that the speedster Wells actually met at the press conference was Zoom. That's how he had speed. He had Sears's face. So from then on, he always assumed Garrick looked like this. But afterwards, the person they were working with who didn't have speed was Zoom's doppleganger (ie another Zolomon), not the real Garrick's doppleganger.

Oh for sure. I'm definitely on board with all this. It makes the most sense. Especially why our "Jay" didn't have a doppleganger. That whole scene at the park was staged because they knew Caitlin was getting close to the truth.
Because he's not Jay at all, he's Hunter..etc.

I was just asking when the switcharoo happened. When did Zoom capture the real Jay and put him in the mask?

I was thinking along similar lines, involving E-1 Zolomon's destiny, but didn't think of this scenario exactly. Now that you've mentioned it, it makes perfect sense. t:

Thanks. I mean, totally flawed theory haha but we're working off so little. I wonder what Zoom's master plan is?

 

[Dark Raven]

Oh for sure. I'm definitely on board with all this. It makes the most sense. Especially why our "Jay" didn't have a doppleganger. That whole scene at the park was staged because they knew Caitlin was getting close to the truth.
Because he's not Jay at all, he's Hunter..etc.

I was just asking when the switcharoo happened. When did Zoom capture the real Jay and put him in the mask?


Thanks. I mean, totally flawed theory haha but we're working off so little. I wonder what Zoom's master plan is?

Well our Jay could have an E1 doppleganger. But Caitlin wouldn't have known she found him when looking him up, because he looked so different.

If you took a different scenario and imagine you were looking for Peyton List (who plays Lisa Snart). Now you know her to look like this:

Now imagine you see this actress instead:

Her name is also Peyton List.

You would immediately assume they must be two different actresses named Peyton List with the same name. You wouldn't think that one is actually the doppelganger of the other, and you would automatically discount one.

So if Caitlyn did come across someone else who was named Jay Garrick on E1, and he didn't look like Sears, then she probably wouldn't think that they must somehow be the same person but rather would assume they're just two different people.

But if this Jay Garrick she came across is actually the double of what the E2 Garrick is like, she wouldn't know that, because she would only believe E2 Garrick to look like Sears.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

I am sorry to take your attention off zoom, but...

does anyone else think that supercar will give wally his superspeed ?!

Yep, I think Wally's "speed" is going to be suit or armor based. It'll probably be a mix of his car designs and the Insider Suit from the comics. It'll look more like a traditional speedster outfit though.

This all specumalatshun of course.

 

[The_Manhunter]

Complete side note: Next episode is in 4 weeks, so they definitely left us with quite the tease. I fully expect **** to get real when they return.

CW drives me nuts with how they schedule their shows

 

[The_Manhunter]

Fair enough. I can see where you're coming from. I thought it was a good reveal, because I honestly thought Zoom was Eddie Thawne so it took me by surprise.

Same with me, except I thought he was Henry from E2

 

[haephestus]

So, I'm finally caught up. And I'm confused.

As best I can figure / guess / wildly theorise, Zoom is Jay Garrick from the future. In the original timeline, Jay Garrick helped The Flash close all of the breaches, but became addicted to Velocity 9 in the process. Upon returning to Earth 2, his addiction to Velocity 9 eventually drove him insane. Velocity 9 potentially stopped having a major impact on him and he became obsessed with stealing speed from others, leading him to travel back in time to when he knew there were portals to other worlds with the intention of stealing The Flash's speed.

I think that would explain the reasoning why TPTB wanted to include an episode showing that the Reverse Flash still exists, even though Eddie killed himself. Because they needed to "explain" how Zoom would still exist once Jay Garrick was killed, despite it being a complication for Zoom.

BUT, that doesn't really account for all of Jay Garrick's mysterious absences this season or "Hunter Zolomon" on Earth 1 (since that name indicates that he has a larger role to play than simply being Jay's doppelganger) or the fact that the man in the iron mask really seems as though he's another doppelganger of Jay based on hair colour, etc.

I really hope that TPTB have a convincing explanation for everything. I'm NOT a fan of Jay Garrick "playing" Team Flash, especially Barry and Caitlin for the season to date. Not only is it a repeat of the storyline from season 1, but it is also disingenuous to the comic book character of Jay Garrick and to Barry and Caitlin's characters.

 

[Dark Raven]

So, I'm finally caught up. And I'm confused.

As best I can figure / guess / wildly theorise, Zoom is Jay Garrick from the future. In the original timeline, Jay Garrick helped The Flash close all of the breaches, but became addicted to Velocity 9 in the process. Upon returning to Earth 2, his addiction to Velocity 9 eventually drove him insane. Velocity 9 potentially stopped having a major impact on him and he became obsessed with stealing speed from others, leading him to travel back in time to when he knew there were portals to other worlds with the intention of stealing The Flash's speed.

I think that would explain the reasoning why TPTB wanted to include an episode showing that the Reverse Flash still exists, even though Eddie killed himself. Because they needed to "explain" how Zoom would still exist once Jay Garrick was killed, despite it being a complication for Zoom.

BUT, that doesn't really account for all of Jay Garrick's mysterious absences this season or "Hunter Zolomon" on Earth 1 (since that name indicates that he has a larger role to play than simply being Jay's doppelganger) or the fact that the man in the iron mask really seems as though he's another doppelganger of Jay based on hair colour, etc.

I really hope that TPTB have a convincing explanation for everything. I'm NOT a fan of Jay Garrick "playing" Team Flash, especially Barry and Caitlin for the season to date. Not only is it a repeat of the storyline from season 1, but it is also disingenuous to the comic book character of Jay Garrick and to Barry and Caitlin's characters.

Isn't that what the creators said has happened though? Jay seems to have observed them and known exactly how to manipulate them. Caitlin was in need of a romantic partner, so he became that for her. Barry was in need of another mentor, so he became that for him. And I don't think it really is disingenuous to Jay's character if he's not really Jay in the first place but the man in the iron mask is. Jay would finally be vindicated if it's revealed to be him.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

Isn't that what the creators said has happened though? Jay seems to have observed them and known exactly how to manipulate them. Caitlin was in need of a romantic partner, so he became that for her. Barry was in need of another mentor, so he became that for him. And I don't think it really is disingenuous to Jay's character if he's not really Jay in the first place but the man in the iron mask is. Jay would finally be vindicated if it's revealed to be him.

If the Jay we've seen alongside the team really has been Zoom all along then there better be a real Jay Garrick out there or I'll be incredibly disappointed with the show.

 

[mr. peasant]

Isn't that what the creators said has happened though? Jay seems to have observed them and known exactly how to manipulate them. Caitlin was in need of a romantic partner, so he became that for her. Barry was in need of another mentor, so he became that for him. And I don't think it really is disingenuous to Jay's character if he's not really Jay in the first place but the man in the iron mask is. Jay would finally be vindicated if it's revealed to be him.

Until it actually happens onscreen, I would take any comments by the show's creators with a pinch of salt. I mean, that's a bit of a major spoiler to just reveal to the public like that, isn't it? Why would the creators simply spoil one of the major plot twists of the season?

 

[haephestus]

Isn't that what the creators said has happened though?

I'm not sure I only just watched the episode.

...

I've now read that interview. I didn't understand it to be honest. If Jay and Zoom were the same person (i.e. if Zoom was pretending to be Jay the entire time), then who did Zoom kill? Did he somehow grab a double from another Earth, dress him in Jay's clothes, swap places with him and then kill him? That seems like a lot of effort for little reward and doesn't tie in with Zoom's comment about Jay's death being a complication.

And my memory is foggy, but I'm sure we've seen flashbacks of Jay and Zoom fighting. If they're the same person, then those flashbacks don't make any sense.

That typed, Zoom and Jay could still be the same person if Zoom is a future version of Jay. Or if Zoom's been collecting his doppelgangers from various Earths for some purpose.

Anyway, I was confused when I watched the episode and I'm even more confused after reading that article with TPTB's comments. I just hope that the story is justified and that The Flash's quality of storytelling doesn't drop to season 3 of Arrow levels of terribleness.

 

[Dark Raven]

The only flashbacks we've seen are what Jay reported, and he's an unreliable narrator. He probably wasn't telling the whole truth, so we don't know that it happened that way at all. Or it could just be a manifestation of an internal struggle he's having where he's at war with himself.

 

[mr. peasant]

The only flashbacks we've seen are what Jay reported, and he's an unreliable narrator. He probably wasn't telling the whole truth, so we don't know that it happened that way at all. Or it could just be a manifestation of an internal struggle he's having where he's at war with himself.

Still doesn't explain why the writers would freely give away the big twist of the season in an interview.