The Last Jedi The Force - What are the rules?

[spider-neil]

For me, the force is now as inconsistent as Spider-Man's Spider Sense or Superman's resistance to Kryptoniate.
What are the rules?
How powerful are Force users, because currently I have no clue.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

For me, the force is now as inconsistent as Spider-Man's Spider Sense or Superman's resistance to Kryptoniate.
What are the rules?
How powerful are Force users, because currently I have no clue.

I think that in Lucas's initial conception we were dealing with a fundamental and indeed "mystical" power of reality itself. It's interesting that when the first SW films came out many thought of the Force as a stand in for God in the Judeo-Christian sense. So for myself I would say... What are the rules for GOD? What, in other words are the limitations for the fundamental power of the universe?

Dealing with something that is both a mystery but is supposed to be used and useful in a fictional narrative is tricky. It requires delineation, texture, but you can't really turn it into "science", into something ultimately measurable with hard and fast rules if you also want it to be "mystical", beyond full human comprehension and mysterious.

We can take our cues from what we have seen in the films and some tie in products. I think the EU is no longer applicable though there's some obvious crossover with some things shown in both new canon and the EU. Still, let's be honest... The films, the EU, the new canon... There's lots of inconsistencies in the way the Force has been shown well before TLJ.

For myself I will say that in TLJ I don't see a new conception of the Force as I thought of it. It is just exactly what I kind of always thought it to be, only... More so.

 

[Brother Jack]

Dealing with something that is both a mystery but is supposed to be used and useful in a fictional narrative is tricky. It requires delineation, texture, but you can't really turn it into "science", into something ultimately measurable with hard and fast rules if you also want it to be "mystical", beyond full human comprehension and mysterious.

Yeah, it's a tricky tight rope to walk. While I was watching it I was thinking "That's not how the force works!" a couple of times, but upon reflection I realized trying to be empirical about it is missing the point. Which is a big part of the film's message, really. The force works in mysterious ways. It's getting it back to its mystical roots. Whether it was intentional or not, it is kind of a middle finger to midichlorians and the notion that the force could ever be observed and measured in any kind of scientific way. It's not about blood lines or power levels.

Having said that, it should be noted that part of the role of Lucasfilm's story group is establishing boundaries with how the force should and should not be used. But that has as more to do with narrative considerations, that is how the force can service the story rather than dis-serve, than dogmatic rule keeping.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

It's interesting... I have been reading and hearing that phrase a lot. "That's not how the Force works." And yet I don't yet recall someone following up with how they think the Force does work or why what they are harping about at that particular moment falls out of bounds of what is "correct".


Which I suppose is why we have a thread like this now.

 

[Bobber]

I'm sure if Return of the Jedi was released today, we'd be crying foul.

"The force does NOT allow you to shoot LIGHTNING out of your hands!"

 

[DerekLake]

Are spoilers allowed here?

I think regarding the three new uses of the Force that we see, only one stands out as particularly egregious, and that's mostly because there are other, natural rules (such as what the vacuum of space is actually like) that make the scene unbelievable.

As for the rest, including Kylo's mind probing and Force freeze abilities, I think they fall perfectly in line with a mystical energy field that permeates and binds all living things together.

 

[Orba]

Looking at the new films I would say that the biggest new addition to the Force came in TFA when Kylo stopped Poe's shot and held it mid-flight without it actually loosing its momentum. We also saw him paralyze Rey but that can be explained through other Force abilities like telekinesis and the ability to dominate other minds.

In TLJ we had [BLACKOUT]Leia using the Force but it is not hard to explain through existing abilities, it just seems weird at first as we have not seen something like it before in the films. But then we have not seen anyone out in zero G in any of the films that I can recall. The first thing about the scene is that while some films make out that the vacuum of space is instant death its not, you can survive for a short amount of time. The big thing is to not hold your breath as in a vacuum gasses try to expand so holding air in your lungs while the gas expands inside them will cause damage. So Leia could survive for a short time the only problem is getting back to the ship but using the Force she would only require a small amount of force to propel herself since she was in zero G.[/BLACKOUT]

[BLACKOUT]The other big one was Luke's illusion yet it is not a completely new ability to the franchise, this is just its first use in canon. In the EU it was called Force dopplegänger and worked just like in the film, the illusion was even visible to droids and sensors. Its first appearance was in Dark Empire and was originally indicated as being a darkside ability however later uses would include Jedi using it which seems to disprove it being darkside. In the EU it could even be combined with telekinesis to make it seem that the illusion was interacting with the environment.[/BLACKOUT]

But the biggest to me is Kylo stopping the shot, we have seem blasters deflected with weapons and even hands but nothing like that. Stopping a person in their tracks is easy to explain through telekinesis but the fact that once released it kept going indicates that it is something very different behind it.

 

[spiderman2]

I think that in Lucas's initial conception we were dealing with a fundamental and indeed "mystical" power of reality itself. It's interesting that when the first SW films came out many thought of the Force as a stand in for God in the Judeo-Christian sense. So for myself I would say... What are the rules for GOD? What, in other words are the limitations for the fundamental power of the universe?

Dealing with something that is both a mystery but is supposed to be used and useful in a fictional narrative is tricky. It requires delineation, texture, but you can't really turn it into "science", into something ultimately measurable with hard and fast rules if you also want it to be "mystical", beyond full human comprehension and mysterious.

We can take our cues from what we have seen in the films and some tie in products. I think the EU is no longer applicable though there's some obvious crossover with some things shown in both new canon and the EU. Still, let's be honest... The films, the EU, the new canon... There's lots of inconsistencies in the way the Force has been shown well before TLJ.

For myself I will say that in TLJ I don't see a new conception of the Force as I thought of it. It is just exactly what I kind of always thought it to be, only... More so.

lol but for God there is no limitations and I think people are just over thinking things a lot. I think a lot of it is just times when the movies where made. If star wars had not been made back in the late 70's but instead now we may have seen different things just because of the simple fact that tech is better now days and they couldn't do some things back then lol.

 

[TheVileOne]

The rules of the Force are whatever the writers want them to be.

Just for example, even though it's recognized as a dark side power, in Return of the Jedi, when we first see Luke, he uses Force Choke on Jabba's guards. That's generally recognized as a dark Jedi power. Yet Luke used it.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

lol but for God there is no limitations and I think people are just over thinking things a lot. I think a lot of it is just times when the movies where made. If star wars had not been made back in the late 70's but instead now we may have seen different things just because of the simple fact that tech is better now days and they couldn't do some things back then lol.

Well... That's my point. People saying "such and such is allowed by the Force but such and such is not" is putting a limitation on the all encompassing power of the universe. I'm not saying there should be no rules, but I am saying that putting said rules into practice for something that makes the ability to destroy a planet seem insignificant (#Vaderquotes) is trickier than those doing so really understand.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The rules of the Force are whatever the writers want them to be.

Just for example, even though it's recognized as a dark side power, in Return of the Jedi, when we first see Luke, he uses Force Choke on Jabba's guards. That's generally recognized as a dark Jedi power. Yet Luke used it.

There was no light side or dark side abilities then.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

The rules of the Force are whatever the writers want them to be.

Just for example, even though it's recognized as a dark side power, in Return of the Jedi, when we first see Luke, he uses Force Choke on Jabba's guards. That's generally recognized as a dark Jedi power. Yet Luke used it.

There was no light side or dark side abilities then.

I kind of took it as showing the audience (as if the Johnny Cash wardrobe wasn't enought ) that Luke had "too much of his father in him". Yoda says Jedi's only use the force for knowledge and defense, never attack and yet there goes Luke at Jabba's choking pig men, grabbing blasters to shoot mob bosses etc.

The whole "light powers vs. dark powers" was always a vague concept, indeed one can bring it back to ideas of TLJ.

I mean... Using telekinesis to move an object isn't or shouldn't be different than using it to choke a fool out. Same power really, just leveraged in another way, also with different intention. And maybe that was what Rian was on about. It's the intention of the individual using the force that matters, or at least it's a huge thing in the mix.


Personally I kinda feel that this was a dropped ball in ROTS. Have Obi-Won and Anikan have an epic, swash buckling light saber duel. But when Yoda went to face the Emperor it should have been purely a Force on Force battle. And it should have been crazy, like something out of Avatar the Last Air Bender. Go Kung Fu magic with it I say. Have them chucking stuff at each other, okay, but make it more interesting. Have the Emperor throw an object at Yoda but as it's going towards the Jedi master the Sith Lord turns it into a molten mass. Have Yoda reshape matter around him into different shapes, turn air into super heated plasma, just go nuts and say this, this level of mastery is what separates a Yoda from just a regular Jedi Knight.

Which is why I guess I loved what Luke did so much in TLJ. I think that taking all we are told about the Force at face value in the films, I had a conception of The Force as being more than just mind tricks and rocks lifting. About the only limitation I thought of was that it should be something terribly straining on the one using it. Even Yoda at his age looked tired after lifting the X-Wing on Dagobah. That way there's some limits on the user but no limits on the Force itself.

 

[Sithborg]

There was no light side or dark side abilities then.

Let's not go down the Vergere path, perhaps...

Let's put it like this.

There are Sith techniques.
Jedi techniques.
Nightsister techniques.
Bendu techniques.

 

[writer0327]

The Force appears to be able to interact with anything it is a part of, which is everything the the Galaxy. It's only limitations appear to be the user, depending upon training and their own strength in the Force.

I've always wondered what does "strong in the Force" mean exactly? I mean I think I know what it means, but I've never been that certain about it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Let's not go down the Vergere path, perhaps...

Let's put it like this.

There are Sith techniques.
Jedi techniques.
Nightsister techniques.
Bendu techniques.

Corrupted Jacen worse then Snoke corrupted Kylo.

There definitely are now. Or more precisely, all about that intent.

 

[Longshot777]

The Force is unlimited energy that can give anyone the power to conquer adversity. It gives high midichlorian beings like Sith and Jedi powers from telekinesis to unlimited abilities still unknown. Normal humans can also access it either consciously or unconsciously by being successful on their endeavors.

In history though, even that dark and light are suppose to be balance, the Dark Side rules.

Dark Side masters only lost from overconfidence while their apprentices usually can take on more Jedi at once.

Sidious and Snoke cannot be defeated head on, they were only defeated by their hubris and when their guard was down. Or be defeated by another Dark Side user which what happened to the ancient Sith empire.

So while the light side if for knowledge and enlightenment, the dark is for aggression and power so naturally it is more powerful in war.

 

[Sithborg]

Corrupted Jacen worse then Snoke corrupted Kylo.

There definitely are now. Or more precisely, all about that intent.

I maintain that Emerald Judgement, or any other use of Force lightning, that is "light side" is just rpger powergaming fanwank.

Take your damn Dark Side point.

 

[DerekLake]

The Force is unlimited energy that can give anyone the power to conquer adversity. It gives high midichlorian beings like Sith and Jedi powers from telekinesis to unlimited abilities still unknown. Normal humans can also access it either consciously or unconsciously by being successful on their endeavors.

In history though, even that dark and light are suppose to be balance, the Dark Side rules.

Dark Side masters only lost from overconfidence while their apprentices usually can take on more Jedi at once.

Sidious and Snoke cannot be defeated head on, they were only defeated by their hubris and when their guard was down. Or be defeated by another Dark Side user which what happened to the ancient Sith empire.

So while the light side if for knowledge and enlightenment, the dark is for aggression and power so naturally it is more powerful in war.

At some point I would like to see a Jedi heal someone using the Force. It seems like such a natural ability for them to have. Since they've started Rey and Kylo out as such overpowered Force users, perhaps she can do it in the next film? Even if it drains her of strength, it'd be a neat thing to see.

 

[I Am The Knight]

The Force is unlimited energy that can give anyone the power to conquer adversity. It gives high midichlorian beings like Sith and Jedi powers from telekinesis to unlimited abilities still unknown. Normal humans can also access it either consciously or unconsciously by being successful on their endeavors.

Can I access the Force?

 

[TheDreamMaster]

While I think it was bad they used lightning of all things, I liked the idea that Yoda could use the force as a ghost like he did. Though it raises the question of if Yoda/Obi-wan could stand up to Kylo and destroy him while he couldn’t affect them. That’s probably something that might conflict with them being one with the light side of the force, but who knows at this point.

 

[Longshot777]

Can I access the Force?

Lol I meant the normal humans in the SW Universe which is said by Luke when he told Rey the Force is in everyone not just the Jedi or Sith.

Normal humans can't have telekinesis, telepathy, precognition, Jedi mind trick, or Sith Lightning , and Force projection like the Sith and Jedi but they can access it like Donnie Yen's character in Rogue One.

But I guess normal humans in this world can access it too. You ever had those days when you take a leap of faith and everything just falls in to place for you. Like when Eli Manning was almost sacked then he closed his eyes and just threw the ball as far as he can and Tyree caught it beating the undefeated Patriots in the SuperBowl. Eli used the Force on that one.

So yeah you can access the Force theoretically.

 

[Bobber]

Lol I meant the normal humans in the SW Universe which is said by Luke when he told Rey the Force is in everyone not just the Jedi or Sith.

Normal humans can't have telekinesis, telepathy, precognition, Jedi mind trick, or Sith Lightning , and Force projection like the Sith and Jedi but they can access it like Donnie Yen's character in Rogue One.

But I guess normal humans in this world can access it too. You ever had those days when you take a leap of faith and everything just falls in to place for you. Like when Eli Manning was almost sacked then he closed his eyes and just threw the ball as far as he can and Tyree caught it beating the undefeated Patriots in the SuperBowl. Eli used the Force on that one.

So yeah you can access the Force theoretically.

Aren't Jedi's just normal people that learn to access the force through training and meditation? Some are stronger with it than others, obviously.

 

[AlluAllu]

Imo the new uses in TLJ are perfectly logical. Force is all about the stuff that is between, inside and around everything in the universe. I can see how it could be used to transcend a physical location.

 

[Longshot777]

Aren't Jedi's just normal people that learn to access the force through training and meditation? Some are stronger with it than others, obviously.

Jedi and Sith has more midichlorian count than a normal being.

Hence why the Jedi and Sith don't just train any being in the galaxy.

 

[Brother Jack]

The rules of the Force are whatever the writers want them to be.

Just for example, even though it's recognized as a dark side power, in Return of the Jedi, when we first see Luke, he uses Force Choke on Jabba's guards. That's generally recognized as a dark Jedi power. Yet Luke used it.

That was there for the story. It was to show Luke veering into becoming his father, as the force choke was his signature move. It works as a narrative device because it services the character right alongside the black, hooded wardrobe and framing which obscures Luke's face and presents him almost as villainous.

While I think it was bad they used lightning of all things, I liked the idea that Yoda could use the force as a ghost like he did. Though it raises the question of if Yoda/Obi-wan could stand up to Kylo and destroy him while he couldn’t affect them. That’s probably something that might conflict with them being one with the light side of the force, but who knows at this point.

I didn't see it as Yoda using force lightning so much as Yoda affecting the weather and creating a storm that shot lightning down. Which actually is a much greater display of power, but one that isn't so direct. The Bendu was shown doing something similar.