The General Comic Discussion Thread - Part 1

[MMMMM...Pancakes]

Would anyone here recommend Powers/House of X? Im on the fence about it. Schism was the last X-Men story Ive read.

 

[NDX]

I can't, but I'm not a fan of Hickman.

 

[Catoti]

Would anyone here recommend Powers/House of X? Im on the fence about it. Schism was the last X-Men story Ive read.

I found it so-so. Some individual parts were good, but as a whole it's a bit messy to me.

 

[Gee]

I treated myself for the holidays and got that oversized Silver Surfer Black paperback that was just released few days ago. The art is very interesting.

 

[CrimsonMist]

That i do get, the idea to humanize him so very much.
But he did so by first put bruce back 20-30 years in a desperate state to use tropes left and right to humanize him.
He took the easy way out, put the mask as a curse, push his family away and twist characters, motivations etc around just to fit into that.
He didnt use what was there to humanize him, he didnt put character over story, he put story in front and molded the characters around to fit the story.
As for Batcat, i appreciate that he was consistent for sure...but again he forced it to work instead of actual character progress or so.
He pushed the family away so that he can have selina be the most important family that matters.
He knocked Bruce down to have Selina be his light when nothing could be farther from the truth.
If people want to accept it or not...but Bruce and Selina are simply not meant to be.
The characters are not created to nor have they evolved into natural so far.
You cant have them work like Clark and Lois or so because they are both bound too much by who they are.

This is how I view from a few different ways.

1. No one writes Batman to progress the character, for better or worse. Batman is not Daredevil, who went through like a 30 year period of character development at a maintained level of quality that is rare for comics.

People write Batman to make a statement. I think it's largely been this way since The New Gotham Era. Morrison wasn't interested in continuing the development that came before, Snyder wasn't interested in continuing Morrison, and King wasn't interested in following Snyder. These guys are more concerned with creator-defined runs. They explore different aspects of the character that may be touched on by other people but are too contagious to not explore fully or differently. These writers ALWAYS do what you said: they put story over character. And with characters like Batman, you kind of need to do that.

So I'm not particularly annoyed when King decides to disregard "Batman WAS happy!" and decides to pull on a different thread of an idea to explore.

2. This is how I view Batman, in a broad sense: this guy surrounds himself with a lot of people, from the Robins, Batgirls, Nightwing, Alfred, Gordon and the Justice League. Every night he goes out and punches bad guys. And while he has a support circle, has a family, is he TRULY happy? You see this in people all the time in real life. They work, they have friends, they go out and have a good time, but there's still something missing. And as I said, there has been Silver St. Cloud, Jezebel Jet, and Vicki Vale, but Catwoman has ALWAYS been the constant woman in his life.

I think the question of King's run is: Is Batman content or is he complacent? That's what resonated with me throughout the run. Batman IS complacent, but is he capable of more than that? He made a vow to his parents to war on criminals. And so he did. And he took partners to help him in that war, and made them soldiers disguised as pseudo-family members that he always keeps at arm's length.

And so you get a moment where Batman has a moment to contemplate his death and whether he had a life well spent. And then you get a moment when Bruce realizes that Selina's always been the constant in his life. It might seem trite initially, but like Superman revealing himself as Clark Kent, the possibilities to explore are endless, and I thought King did an excellent job.

While his initial reaction was fine, the fact that it even happened just for plot purpose without king making a big deal out of it...is the problem.
We havent seen how Damian deals with it, we havent seen the family mourn...bad place the final issue even barely bothers with Alfreds death before going "Here, we havent seen batcat since 2 pages".
Alfreds death was never treated as anything more than plot device, which is a crime.
Alfred is one of the characters that you dont do dirty like that no matter what.
If you hurt or kill alfred then it must have a deeper meaning and not be a throwaway plot device.
Which it is not, no matter what considering the reaction of it.
King killed off Alfred to prove a point he didnt need to prove in the first place if he hadnt put batman in a Timemachine to go back to the rather childish angry boy dressed up as a bat.

What I'm genuinely curious about is how King's run was supposed to conclude before DC decided to make Alfred's death "permanent". Was Alfred supposed to be revived? Was that actually Clayface in disguise? Because you're right - it does seem odd that no one has a chance to really react to it, but I think that's because on top of having his run cut from 105 to 85, there wasn't much time to explore it.

That said, didn't Morrison do the same thing when Damien died? Weren't the mourning issues written in other books by other people?

I don't believe that King's Batman is an angry little boy in a costume. He's a confused man trying to move forward. And while yes, killing characters is always kind of a weak thing to do, I thought the Alfred issue worked- how many issues have we seen illustrating how profound an impact Alfred's raising of Bruce actually had? More often than not, especially when compared with Dick Grayson, there's always a sense that Alfred failed Bruce and that he rectified that mistake with Dick. The issue of Bruce reacting to Alfred's death, and the letter Alfred left him, was some powerful comics. You may see it was a cheap plot device, but that issue to me radically refined the Bruce/Alfred relationship in a way that worked and felt new. It also highlighted just how off the rails Thomas Wayne went in trying to "save" his son. Whatever good intentions he had, he ended up doing to Bruce all of the terrible things that happened to him, and could never see how futile it was.

Also, it was better than Alfred losing a hand.

Anyways, this is always gonna be an "Agree to Disagree" scenario methinks, but I always enjoy the conversation.

Happy New Year to you all!

 

[MMMMM...Pancakes]

I can't, but I'm not a fan of Hickman.

I found it so-so. Some individual parts were good, but as a whole it's a bit messy to me.

Thank you. I’ll probably just wait until I find it cheap. Not going to spend $50+ on a so-so book.

 

[Mani-Man]

This is how I view from a few different ways.

1. No one writes Batman to progress the character, for better or worse. Batman is not Daredevil, who went through like a 30 year period of character development at a maintained level of quality that is rare for comics.

People write Batman to make a statement. I think it's largely been this way since The New Gotham Era. Morrison wasn't interested in continuing the development that came before, Snyder wasn't interested in continuing Morrison, and King wasn't interested in following Snyder. These guys are more concerned with creator-defined runs. They explore different aspects of the character that may be touched on by other people but are too contagious to not explore fully or differently. These writers ALWAYS do what you said: they put story over character. And with characters like Batman, you kind of need to do that.

So I'm not particularly annoyed when King decides to disregard "Batman WAS happy!" and decides to pull on a different thread of an idea to explore.

Thats true, i guess its just me absolutly hating by now this whole "batman must be unhappy and brooding" thing.
Im so past that and Kings run specificly focuses on the unhappiness of Bruce when he wears the cowl.

When King started, Batman was at a "fine" place over all the series, King knocked him down just for 85 issues later put him in a "fine" place.

2. This is how I view Batman, in a broad sense: this guy surrounds himself with a lot of people, from the Robins, Batgirls, Nightwing, Alfred, Gordon and the Justice League. Every night he goes out and punches bad guys. And while he has a support circle, has a family, is he TRULY happy? You see this in people all the time in real life. They work, they have friends, they go out and have a good time, but there's still something missing. And as I said, there has been Silver St. Cloud, Jezebel Jet, and Vicki Vale, but Catwoman has ALWAYS been the constant woman in his life.

I think the question of King's run is: Is Batman content or is he complacent? That's what resonated with me throughout the run. Batman IS complacent, but is he capable of more than that? He made a vow to his parents to war on criminals. And so he did. And he took partners to help him in that war, and made them soldiers disguised as pseudo-family members that he always keeps at arm's length.

And so you get a moment where Batman has a moment to contemplate his death and whether he had a life well spent. And then you get a moment when Bruce realizes that Selina's always been the constant in his life. It might seem trite initially, but like Superman revealing himself as Clark Kent, the possibilities to explore are endless, and I thought King did an excellent job.

Does he specificly need "romance" to be happy? Thats the thing King told, that nothing is as important as being with Selina.
That Selina means happiness, family, having someone that cares for you.
Yeah Selina is the constant romance in his life, but also never something more...its always the cat and mouse game...will they wont they.
When that is over, the character vanishes or so and Bruce is left "alone" again.
Look at lois/clark, Dinah/Oliver, Iris/Barry and so on...they all have one in common...steady support.
They are always around, are always part of each other lifes...Selina never was that for longer because the character only works in a limited capacity around before feeling too empty.
King had the chance to evolve Selina, make her a character that can be more...but he either didnt wanted that or saw that there isnt more.
Selina over the course of Kings run barely had to put any work into anything...maybe that was due to King writing it more from Batmans perspective, but it was like Selina is the eye of the storm and everything has to spin around her to fit her.
And if that is truly a good fit then, when you need to shift everything around a character instead of having the character adapt to the situation...i dont know.

What I'm genuinely curious about is how King's run was supposed to conclude before DC decided to make Alfred's death "permanent". Was Alfred supposed to be revived? Was that actually Clayface in disguise? Because you're right - it does seem odd that no one has a chance to really react to it, but I think that's because on top of having his run cut from 105 to 85, there wasn't much time to explore it.

That said, didn't Morrison do the same thing when Damien died? Weren't the mourning issues written in other books by other people?

I dont know what the plan was with that...a lot in the last issues felt like King was backed into a corner and didnt really knew how to do it.
I assume alfreds death was supposed to be permanent, he knew way in advance that his run would end sooner and he still had him killed...so i guess the main idea of how the arc ends was always there.
But it must have been a bad place of a problem to have your run cut down by so many issues, you have to shift the whole outline and even drop a possible further planned arc.

I don't believe that King's Batman is an angry little boy in a costume. He's a confused man trying to move forward. And while yes, killing characters is always kind of a weak thing to do, I thought the Alfred issue worked- how many issues have we seen illustrating how profound an impact Alfred's raising of Bruce actually had? More often than not, especially when compared with Dick Grayson, there's always a sense that Alfred failed Bruce and that he rectified that mistake with Dick. The issue of Bruce reacting to Alfred's death, and the letter Alfred left him, was some powerful comics. You may see it was a cheap plot device, but that issue to me radically refined the Bruce/Alfred relationship in a way that worked and felt new. It also highlighted just how off the rails Thomas Wayne went in trying to "save" his son. Whatever good intentions he had, he ended up doing to Bruce all of the terrible things that happened to him, and could never see how futile it was.

Also, it was better than Alfred losing a hand.

Anyways, this is always gonna be an "Agree to Disagree" scenario methinks, but I always enjoy the conversation.

Yeah i guess we wont find common ground on the Alfred thing...i get the idea behind, but to me it didnt work and was the worst thing he could have done.

But like i said, that is what makes comics and so on interesting...the fact that people can look at the same pictures and see different things in it, find different ideas and meanings behind it.
It is a fantastic thing.

 

[Babillygunn]

Any thoughts or opinions on the start of Tynion’s run?

 

[Motown Marvel]

I've (surprisingly) found myself reading manga lately after ignoring it completely. Junji Ito's Uzumaki, Tomie, and Shiver are easily the best horror comics I've ever read. Currently half way through Akira, as well.

 

[MMMMM...Pancakes]

I've (surprisingly) found myself reading manga lately after ignoring it completely. Junji Ito's Uzumaki, Tomie, and Shiver are easily the best horror comics I've ever read. Currently half way through Akira, as well.

Awesome! Uzumaki is one of my favorites and i agree, Japanese do horror comics very well.

 

[Gee]

Oh yes, can't wait for this. Another Eisner nomination for King... Let's go!

I've (surprisingly) found myself reading manga lately after ignoring it completely. Junji Ito's Uzumaki, Tomie, and Shiver are easily the best horror comics I've ever read. Currently half way through Akira, as well.

Manga is something I want to get back into one day. When I do, it'll definitely be with one of my childhood sweethearts: Dragon Ball.

 

[Motown Marvel]

I did the complete Lone Wolf and Cub series last year and that might be the most impressive comics I've ever read. I've heard great things about Monster and plan to check that out once I'm done with Akira. I wish Lady Snowblood would come back into print.

 

[Mani-Man]

Any thoughts or opinions on the start of Tynion’s run?

So far its fine, it needs to really get started but the first issue was not too bad.

 

[CrimsonMist]

Tynion gets 7 issues from me, same as King. But right now, I thought Tynion's first issue was as generic and mundane superhero comic as possible.

 

[Babillygunn]

I like Tynion. And I thought the first issue had some genuine emotion to it with respect to Bruce’s grief. The story is obviously setting up, but I have great faith in Tynion.

Between Tynion and Tomasi, Bats is in good hands, IMO

 

[Slade W]

What are posters here favourite superhero movies (i.e. top 10-15)?

 

[Slade W]

For me the top ten are, in no order, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises, Days Of Future Past, Civil War, The Winter Soldier, Thor: Ragnarok and Black Panther, X-Men 2 and Logan.

 

[CrimsonMist]

Oh yes, can't wait for this. Another Eisner nomination for King... Let's go!

Apparently this is for a Catwoman 100 page 80th Anniversary book. And it's a huge deal because DC managed to convince Ed Brubaker to do a 12 page story with Cameron Stewart.

Perhaps more than the King story, I am too damn excited for Brubaker! The last 5 years or so have truly cemented Brubaker as one of THE bonafide Greats of comics. This is the best news.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

What are posters here favourite superhero movies (i.e. top 10-15)?

For me the top ten are, in no order, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises, Days Of Future Past, Civil War, The Winter Soldier, Thor: Ragnarok and Black Panther, X-Men 2 and Logan.

Nice list

My top ten (ranked);

The Dark Knight
Batman Returns
Days of Future Past (Rogue Cut)
Watchmen
The Dark Knight Rises
Batman Begins
Batman v Superman
Wonder Woman
V for Vendetta (if that counts)
Man of Steel

I love the X-Men movies as a whole and I'm a big fan of some MCU movies (all three Cap films, Ragnarok, Infinity War/Endgame), but they don't make my top ten.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Managed to FINALLY get my hands on the 80th Anniversary Superman Action Comics hardback deluxe edition after a few years of waiting.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Managed to FINALLY get my hands on the 80th Anniversary Superman Action Comics hardback deluxe edition after a few years of waiting.

That looks like a really nice edition. Worth the wait?

 

[Mandon Knight]

That looks like a really nice edition. Worth the wait?

Just ordered it from Amazon tonight, so still waiting but having read bits of it in store, absolutely yes. Bought it as birthday present to myself.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Just ordered it from Amazon tonight, so still waiting but having read bits of it in store, absolutely yes. Bought it as birthday present to myself.

Nice - Happy Birthday!

From what I've seen the commentaries/essays look a decent length. I own the three deluxe volumes of the original Crisis on Infinite Earths tie-ins, and one of the things I was particularly looking forward to was the essays. Sadly they're a bit on the short side. Informative, but short.

 

[Babillygunn]

Mandon and Milk Tray, you guys make me jealous with those hardcover collections. Especially the Crisis tie ins. I read the Superboy Prime tie in and it really adds a lot to the character (and makes Infinite Crisis an Anakin-level tragedy)

I just started re-reading Batman Incorporated. Morrison is a really good storyteller. I find his work to often be unsettling in the sheer amount of collateral damage in his stories. A lot of innocents die.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

I read the Superboy Prime tie in and it really adds a lot to the character (and makes Infinite Crisis an Anakin-level tragedy)

That is a great analogy!

I just started re-reading Batman Incorporated. Morrison is a really good storyteller. I find his work to often be unsettling in the sheer amount of collateral damage in his stories. A lot of innocents die.

I've actually never read that (I have a kinda love/hate relationship with Morrison ). I'm not a fan of Final Crisis, although I did enjoy The Return of Bruce Wayne. So do you recommend Batman Inc.?