The General Comic Discussion Thread - Part 2

Get what you’re saying. But I’d say my argument is less about Tim and more about the trend that some fans have where they demand to see every close friendship become sexual.

It’s a bad trend. That’s not how sexuality works.

-R
If I see a bad trend, it's framing people harmlessly looking for representation in pieces of fiction that's often denied as some scourge that's making it impossible for people to be close friends. Honestly if someone's ability to have close friends is threatened by the idea that there might be a few gay people in their fiction, let alone in someone's fanfiction, that says more about them than anyone else.

Also, it's fiction. It's not real life. That's not how sexuality works, but 'the writer decided x' is exactly how fiction works.
 
If I see a bad trend, it's framing people harmlessly looking for representation in pieces of fiction that's often denied as some scourge that's making it impossible for people to be close friends. Honestly if someone's ability to have close friends is threatened by the idea that there might be a few gay people in their fiction, let alone in someone's fanfiction, that says more about them than anyone else.

Also, it's fiction. It's not real life. That's not how sexuality works, but 'the writer decided x' is exactly how fiction works.

We’re obviously not going to agree on this. But I certainly don’t think it’s bad for folks to want to see themselves in the characters they love or the stories they’re reading. I’m not vilifying people who do it. I do it.

I also understand that the trend of trying to (for lack of a better word) force straight relationships into LGBTQ relationships in an effort to see themselves - is an indictment on the industry’s inability to realistically reflect the way the population looks and not on those readers’ desire for representation.

I hope this instance proves me wrong. And I hope they do Tim justice as a character and tell a compelling story that’s better than the initial justification, because deserves it. And I hope I enjoy it.

I’m glad you have already are.

-R
 
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Happy to go point by point:

It’s not a misunderstanding of what toxic masculinity is. A big problem with perceptions and portrayals of masculinity in the past has been that straight men are viewed as “weak” or “feminine” if they show love, tenderness, patience, etc. Basically any trait that wasn’t aggressive or stoic.

Men we’re viewed to be especially weak if they showed those types of feelings toward another man. Generations of fathers didn’t say “I love you” to their own sons because of this belief. It’s very real. This is a part of toxic masculinity. Men were told they needed to be “men”. And in this antiquated way of thinking, being a “men” was tied to all that outdated tough guy machismo stuff - where men aren’t allowed to show a full spectrum of emotions.
The irony of saying this, while stating it is problematic that a character is bi is legit astounding. The idea that Tim can't set an example against toxic masculinity if he is attracted to other men is just... yeah.

Second point: No one is saying that Tim being made LGTBQ means that “bros can’t be bros.” I’m saying that he seems to have been chosen because he has deep relationships with other male characters. This is a trend that some fans have shown with other characters (Steve and Bucky, Po and Finn, etc). I understand the impulse. There is a hunger for more representation. And there needs to be more representation. But the idea that, “This straight character is non-romantically very close with this straight character … let’s put them together romantically” is a bad one. Just because two straight men are very close friends doesn’t mean they will become romantically involved - it’s pretty problematic to demand that they do. Just like it’s problematic to suggest a straight character can “turn” a gay character. This assumes preference and not orientation.
Why do assume that Finn and Poe are straight?

The only one implying that two characters of the same gender being friends means they have to **** is you. That is what you are doing here. Tim's gay, oh well he can't have close relationships with guys he doesn't **** now. He has to want to **** them all. That is what you are saying.

Though I do wonder, who cares if he finds his male companions attractive? If the male friends are straight, it isn't happening, so what's the issue? Do you believe attraction cancels out friendship? Thus you believe a man and woman can't be friends. Isn't that not an example of toxic masculinity?

Your third point we agree on. That’s my point. The reasons justifying Tim being LGBTQ confirm that problematic way of thinking: He can’t possibly be this close to male characters without being gay and romantically interested in one of them …
Damnit. Now we are limited to every single other male superhero character who is straight, and has bromances, whether it is the random team up he is in or his side kick.

There are a lot of male superhero characters who have deep and meaningful relationships with other dudes. It's a common trope in fiction. Like that one Fellowship, where say if Sam and Frodo were gay, bi or pan, would still somehow have figured out a way to have real friendships with 7 other dudes without ****ing them.

“Shipping” of m/m or f/f IS problematic if the characters in question aren’t LGBTQ. Would be the same if fans were demanding to see a gay character with a character of their opposite sex. Again, it’s orientation not preference. Preference suggests that there’s a choice on the character’s part to steer their sexuality. I’m pretty sure that type of thinking went out a while ago and now we accept that people are born with their particular orientation, whatever it happens to be.
Wow, all those problematic gay people, be attracted to fictional characters. All those years when there was zero representation, they were being so problematic daring to dream of one dude kissing another dude. Nasty.

Shipping is fantasy. I have a crush on Keira Knightley. One of the reasons, the 2005 adaptation of Pride and Prejudice. Her Elizabeth Bennet is all time attractive to me. I am well aware of many women who feel the same. According to you, their crushes on Elizabeth Bennet are problematic. Do I need to explain the obvious issue with stating that having an attraction to a fictional character is problematic, especially for a group that has had very little representation?

Again, this isn’t outrage over “the collapse of the bromance.” This is pointing out that demanding any two males who show affection for each other have to become romantically involved is deeply flawed and problematic. Men should be able to show any and all emotions, and those emotions shouldn’t be reserved only for non-straight men. Yes, we are in an age where LGBTQ characters are becoming normalized. And a small part of the reason for that acceptance is the progress made by a lot of folks in trying to get rid of toxic masculinity. But sending the message that loving another man and having a deep affection for him isn’t something straight men do … contributes to that toxic masculinity. Plain and simple.

-R
Demanding? This is 100% faux outrage. Men can and have shown a range of emotion, and they can do that whether they are a member of the LGBTQIA or not. Using the discussion of toxic masculinity as a shield to complain about a character being bi is as obvious as it is terrible.
 
We’re obviously not going to agree on this. But I certainly don’t think it’s bad for folks to want to see themselves in the characters they love or the stories they’re reading. I’m not vilifying people who do it. I do it.

I also understand that the trend of trying to (for lack of a better word) force straight relationships into LGBTQ relationships in an effort to see themselves - is an indictment on the industry’s inability to realistically reflect the way the population looks and not on those readers’ desire for representation.

I hope this instance proves me wrong. And I hope they do Tim justice as a character and tell a compelling story that’s better than the initial justification, because deserves it. And I hope I enjoy it.

I’m glad you have already are.

-R
What is this? Seriously, force? That legit sounds like it came from a pamphlet on the issue with the "gay agenda".
 
What is this? Seriously, force? That legit sounds like it came from a pamphlet on the issue with the "gay agenda".


Yes. Seriously. Two straight characters will never be romantically involved. Because sexuality is an orientation. So fans demanding that two straight characters have a romantic relationship would be forcing a relationship that doesn’t exist. The same way that it’s wrong to say that an LGBTQ character could be “turned.”

-R
 
The irony of saying this, while stating it is problematic that a character is bi is legit astounding. The idea that Tim can't set an example against toxic masculinity if he is attracted to other men is just... yeah.


Why do assume that Finn and Poe are straight?

The only one implying that two characters of the same gender being friends means they have to **** is you. That is what you are doing here. Tim's gay, oh well he can't have close relationships with guys he doesn't **** now. He has to want to **** them all. That is what you are saying.

Though I do wonder, who cares if he finds his male companions attractive? If the male friends are straight, it isn't happening, so what's the issue? Do you believe attraction cancels out friendship? Thus you believe a man and woman can't be friends. Isn't that not an example of toxic masculinity?


Damnit. Now we are limited to every single other male superhero character who is straight, and has bromances, whether it is the random team up he is in or his side kick.

There are a lot of male superhero characters who have deep and meaningful relationships with other dudes. It's a common trope in fiction. Like that one Fellowship, where say if Sam and Frodo were gay, bi or pan, would still somehow have figured out a way to have real friendships with 7 other dudes without ****ing them.


Wow, all those problematic gay people, be attracted to fictional characters. All those years when there was zero representation, they were being so problematic daring to dream of one dude kissing another dude. Nasty.

Shipping is fantasy. I have a crush on Keira Knightley. One of the reasons, the 2005 adaptation of Pride and Prejudice. Her Elizabeth Bennet is all time attractive to me. I am well aware of many women who feel the same. According to you, their crushes on Elizabeth Bennet are problematic. Do I need to explain the obvious issue with stating that having an attraction to a fictional character is problematic, especially for a group that has had very little representation?


Demanding? This is 100% faux outrage. Men can and have shown a range of emotion, and they can do that whether they are a member of the LGBTQIA or not. Using the discussion of toxic masculinity as a shield to complain about a character being bi is as obvious as it is terrible.
Just one mischaracterization of what I said after another.

Not engaging with such a bad faith argument. If you want to counter arguments I actually made, we can do that .

-R
 
Yes. Seriously. Two straight characters will never be romantically involved. Because sexuality is an orientation. So fans demanding that two straight characters have a romantic relationship would be forcing a relationship that doesn’t exist. The same way that it’s wrong to say that an LGBTQ character could be “turned.”

-R
Let's avoid the obvious problem with queer baiting. None of these people saying they like a ship or fantasize about a ship are "forcing" anything. They have no power. Also the comparison to LGBTQ+ characters being "turned". Are you going to present the long history of this issue in our society with straight people "being turned" that isn't anti-LGBTQ+ propaganda?
 
Let's avoid the obvious problem with queer baiting. None of these people saying they like a ship or fantasize about a ship are "forcing" anything. They have no power. Also the comparison to LGBTQ+ characters being "turned". Are you going to present the long history of this issue in our society with straight people "being turned" that isn't anti-LGBTQ+ propaganda?

Speaking of mischaracterizations …

I didn’t say anything about straight people being turned. I compared fans wanting to see two straight characters who are close become romantically involved to portrayals of LGBTQ people being “turned.” And said that when it is portrayed that an LGBTQ character can be turned - it’s bad. Suggesting that a gay character can be “turned” says that their sexuality is a choice. From there, you’re one step away from horrible things like conversion therapy. People can’t be turned. They are what they are. That’s my whole point. You can’t be turned gay or straight. You can come out of the closet after having tried to lead a life that wasn’t your truth. But that’s not what happened with Tim. This is a character we’ve spent 30+ years with - including tons of time spent in his personal life and with his inner most thoughts. None of which have suggested a struggle with his sexuality.

And saying that fans who “ship” or fantasize about a character changing their sexuality have no power over what happens to that character … that’s clearly not true. The creative team behind this decision have cited the many fans who have called for Tim to be LGBTQ as a reason for the decision.

Look, you and I aren’t going to agree on this either. But I’m glad that you’re enjoying the story as it’s told, and I hope that it wins me over.

(I still think it would have been more organic and interesting with more story potential to develop Damian into an LGTBQ character.)

-R
 
Speaking of mischaracterizations …

I didn’t say anything about straight people being turned. I compared fans wanting to see two straight characters who are close become romantically involved to portrayals of LGBTQ people being “turned.” And said that when it is portrayed that an LGBTQ character can be turned - it’s bad. Suggesting that a gay character can be “turned” says that their sexuality is a choice. From there, you’re one step away from horrible things like conversion therapy. People can’t be turned. They are what they are. That’s my whole point. You can’t be turned gay or straight. You can come out of the closet after having tried to lead a life that wasn’t your truth. But that’s not what happened with Tim. This is a character we’ve spent 30+ years with - including tons of time spent in his personal life and with his inner most thoughts. None of which have suggested a struggle with his sexuality.
That is a distinction without a difference. You compared a straight character being "forced" into a same gender sexual situation to the idea that the gay can be ****ed out of someone. That is a horrid comparison do to the real world consequences and history. This is like comparing Jewish people being marked by the Nazis with being asked to wear a mask during a pandemic. There is no comparison and to do so, is very bad.

Also you seem to be under the impression that sexuality is set in stone. It isn't. Someone can identify as straight one day, gay the next, bi the day after, and then back to straight, and every single moment they'd still be valid. Sexuality is a spectrum, one people are allowed to explore without it being called fake or invalid.

That said, of course when it comes to stating a character we know has same gender attraction no longer does, is very different then saying a straight character is now gay, bi or pan. Because history is a thing. Gay, bi and pan characters represent a validation and representation that has been lacking in real life.

And saying that fans who “ship” or fantasize about a character changing their sexuality have no power over what happens to that character … that’s clearly not true. The creative team behind this decision have cited the many fans who have called for Tim to be LGBTQ as a reason for the decision.
What you just described is fans seeing bi coding with Tim, that the creative team decided was valid. They found merit. It was then signed off on by DC, the company that owns the character.
 
That is a distinction without a difference. You compared a straight character being "forced" into a same gender sexual situation to the idea that the gay can be ****ed out of someone. That is a horrid comparison do to the real world consequences and history. This is like comparing Jewish people being marked by the Nazis with being asked to wear a mask during a pandemic. There is no comparison and to do so, is very bad.

To start, that’s not what a distinction without a difference is. Secondly, that’s a really horrible analogy you’re drawing and not remotely close to the correlation I presented.

Also you seem to be under the impression that sexuality is set in stone. It isn't. Someone can identify as straight one day, gay the next, bi the day after, and then back to straight, and every single moment they'd still be valid. Sexuality is a spectrum, one people are allowed to explore without it being called fake or invalid.

That said, of course when it comes to stating a character we know has same gender attraction no longer does, is very different then saying a straight character is now gay, bi or pan. Because history is a thing. Gay, bi and pan characters represent a validation and representation that has been lacking in real life.


What you just described is fans seeing bi coding with Tim, that the creative team decided was valid. They found merit. It was then signed off on by DC, the company that owns the character.

And I do believe a person’s sexual orientation is their orientation. It’s not a preference that changes day to day. Their orientation could be that their sexuality is fluid or they can be pan sexual, etc. This is something we’re just going to fundamentally disagree on. I think that a person’s sexuality is their orientation. The journey toward discovering and accepting that orientation is one thing, but to say that sexuality is a preference that changes daily implies that you can change it and that it’s a choice. And again, it’s this mentality that homophobes use to justify forced conversion therapy. Because if you can choose, then surely you can unchoose (spoiler: you can’t).

And what you see as “bi-coding” I say are platonic relationships with other male characters.

We’re not going to agree. Enjoy the story. :up:

-R
 
To start, that’s not what a distinction without a difference is. Secondly, that’s a really horrible analogy you’re drawing and not remotely close to the correlation I presented.
It's exactly as you are presenting it. Because whether you realize it or not, you arguing the fallacy someone can "be forced" to not be straight and comparing that to the real world problem of the idea there is something wrong with gay people that must be corrected.

And I do believe a person’s sexual orientation is their orientation. It’s not a preference that changes day to day. Their orientation could be that their sexuality is fluid or they can be pan sexual, etc. This is something we’re just going to fundamentally disagree on. I think that a person’s sexuality is their orientation. The journey toward discovering and accepting that orientation is one thing, but to say that sexuality is a preference that changes daily implies that you can change it and that it’s a choice. And again, it’s this mentality that homophobes use to justify forced conversion therapy. Because if you can choose, then surely you can unchoose (spoiler: you can’t).

And what you see as “bi-coding” I say are platonic relationships with other male characters.

We’re not going to agree. Enjoy the story. :up:

-R
We won't agree because you continually show a lack of knowledge or understanding on the subject. You are doing this while fearmongering over the "toxic masculinity" Tim being bi is somehow reinforcing, while inventing the idea that somehow a character who has only been show to be attracted to women in the past, somehow can't possibly realize they also like same gender relationships. They are being "forced". It's gross.
 
Any horror comics fans here? In the 70s I read a ton of them. I've still got quite a pile from back then; Ghosts, Secrets of Haunted House, House of Secrets, House of Mystery, Forbidden Tales of Dark Mansion, and Weird Mystery Tales.

Nowadays I read Vampirella (Dynamite), Hack/Slash, (Image), and occasionally Van Helsing (Zenescope). But I miss those old anthology titles :csad:

Anybody else read horror? If so, any recommendations?
 
I just looked it up. Looks very interesting. Thanks for the rec :up:
Yeah no problem. I haven't finished it though, cuz I decided to wait for the hardcover that's due out soon. Just cuz the art is so trippy I feel it deserves a physical read as opposed to digital.
By The way, the first issue is free on Comixology.
 
Yeah no problem. I haven't finished it though, cuz I decided to wait for the hardcover that's due out soon. Just cuz the art is so trippy I feel it deserves a physical read as opposed to digital.
By The way, the first issue is free on Comixology.
:up:
 
This week’s Nightwing ties with Flash Annual #1 for the best single issue of the year. It might even supplant it. Man, Tom Taylor is knocking it out of the park on that title.
 
Yet again, the latest issue of Robin is pure joy. Joshua Williamson is performing wonders with that title. The interaction between Dick and Damien is heartfelt, as was Damien’s deconstruction of Jason’s tough guy exterior. The story just moves from emotional scenes to fight scenes so effortlessly. And I love how Williamson has essentially said “just give me the coolest characters that no one else wants to use and see what I do with them.” And he is weaving one for the ages with Damien, Ravager, and Connor Hawke at the center.

I love it.

I’ll say it again: Nightwing, Robin, and Flash are the best titles in Infinite Frontier so far. And it ain’t even close.
 
The latest WW was great.

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So, Comics week...again after a busy week.
I think i forgot to say anything about last week, but i cant remember...so much stuff going on everywhere, been so busy.

Action Comics
The Arc is so good, im really liking it.
The Stakes are high and the Arc Pushes Clark to some decisive action...neat.

Batman Reptilian

Is such a visual adventure, its crazy how different it looks from Liam Sharps batman/wonder woman visuals...really cool.

Detective Comics

Wait, is that it for the Arc? It almost seems that way and if so then im a bit dissapointed.
It ended super quick and shoved aside a bit the Beef of the arc.
You could have done a lot more with Worth and his hunt for Vengeance.

Harley Quinn

Its just such a fun series, i fell in love with it so much.
The art and writing, all very quirky and i like that.

Infinite Frontier

As before, liking it.

Robin

After Nightwing is Robin one of THE series to read.
Incredible use of characters and story.
This week hit a Batman fan right in the feels with Damians Interaction with the Batfamily.
The Flow and the emotional punches here...so god damn good.
If only Batman related this would be done too, with Bruce and the family.
But no, we rather like it when Bruce pushes away his family and flies around the world with a Woman who doesnt even call him by his First name...right DC?
Why tell a story about love and family with his actual family. XD
Anyway, read Robin...its so good.

Superman: Son of Kal-El

Eh still not feeling it to be honest.
Im just not seeing what makes it unique or why we "need" it.
Nothing really out of the ordinary or groundbreaking.
The only thing really is the fact that they sell it as "Son of Kal-El" that it features Jon as Superman.
Other than that, its nothing outstanding sadly.
Probably will drop it.

Wonder Woman

Here again same as always, loving it.

I maybe need to give myself more time on comics again, because currently i dont have the time to digest it much more than i probably should.
I read them and enjoy them, but i feel like i should have more to say about them.
Going "I liked this or that issue" isnt too much, but i dont find the time currently for much more.
 
@Mani-Man i felt the same way about this week’s Detective Comics. I’ve really liked this story, but talk about being unable to stick the landing…

It truly is amazing to me that DC is working towards huge overhauls and grandiose stories with Superman and Batman, and mostly disappoint. while titles like Robin and Nightwing are weaving these small, intimate character pieces and really working some magic.
 
We are probably gonna be seeing a lot of DC Comics changes & layoffs after the Discovery merger. Im curious what its gonna look like after that. When Spawn is kicking your ass in the sales it wont be pretty
 

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