The General Comic Discussion Thread - Part 2

[CrimsonMist]

Doing a lot of catching up on books I missed due to work, but I wanted to chime in on the Miracleman convo.

The Alan Moore run on Miracleman is such a fascinating experiment because you get the story from two points in Moore's career: The up and coming Alan Moore who is beginning to explore the themes he'll become known for and the established, has-nothing-to-prove maestro of the medium Alan Moore. What's even more insane is how he very seamlessly blends the transition, because he jumps back into Miracleman with issue 6 of the Eclipse series after having been away from that book for several years. I believe he had finished Swamp Thing and was just starting Watchmen when Eclipse started publishing Miracleman in America.

It remains, understandably so, his least read major comic book work. I own the full run of Eclipse books and I go back to it often. Issue 15 gets all of the attention, primarily because of how gruesomely violent it is, but I maintain that issue 16, Moore's final issue, is among the best comics of ALL TIME, and one of the most beautifully written at that. Its contrast with 15 is quite staggering, but is one of the few books I re-read almost monthly.

Cumulatively, Miracleman is an incredible read on several levels and if you haven't read it, I urge you to buy the omnibus and have at it. It's so rewarding. That Gaiman is FINALLY finishing up his run (what would have been issue 25 comes out next month!!!) is one of the few comic book events that I am genuinely beyond excited for.

Also, The Anatomy Lesson, Saga of Swamp Thing #21, is my personal favorite comic of all time. That script is perfect. I read that one twice a month. It works without pictures, that's how good it is. I really wish DC would mine their vaults and reprint the script for that one. I'd love to read it.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

It remains, understandably so, his least read major comic book work. I own the full run of Eclipse books and I go back to it often. Issue 15 gets all of the attention, primarily because of how gruesomely violent it is, but I maintain that issue 16, Moore's final issue, is among the best comics of ALL TIME, and one of the most beautifully written at that. Its contrast with 15 is quite staggering, but is one of the few books I re-read almost monthly.

There's no doubt that Moore's Miracleman takes some seriously dark turns.

Spoiler

Kid Miracleman's story - with the abuse and his ultimate fate (I still have trouble getting my head around the fact that Moore actually went that far!) - is at the same time one of the most tragic, most ****ed up, and most brilliant arcs I've read. The guy is a bona fide genius at coming at comics tropes from a completely unexpected direction

 

[Mani-Man]

Final Comics week before I enter the Christmas season, who knows how busy this will be.
A week like this works fine, 3 books…that goes fast.

Action Comics #1049

We are moving towards a big Lex/Superman Clash and its been a while.
Most interesting aspect currently imo is what they have planned with Metallo.
We will see what they have in store for the big 1050, im looking forward to it.
It looks like the Superman Family will get a big push in 2023 and im all here for it.
Looking forward to it.

Detective Comics #1066

I love the run so far, it has such a great vibe and you know something is good when you reach the end of the issue and go “God damn it no, not now”.
That is what happens here.
Of course including Two Face in a story is always a good thing.
So far im super happy with this run.

Harley Quinn #24

Ehm what?
That Reveal is…something.
Like yeah I get the appeal of the Dark Multiverse and all, but I don’t know…seems kind of an empty reveal to a story that could have been more.
But we will see where this goes, what the reason is etc.
I still miss the old art style, it just fit the Crazyness of it all, but the mature art has its positives.
Harley looks really good and I could see Sherlock Harley become a Cosplay hit…I really liked hat look, I was fun.
Anyway, the Book continues to be interesting and im not bored by it at all.

I gave Tim Drake Robin another chance, but gave up after a handful of pages.
It is just not working, the writing, the art…it is not working for me.
Which is so annoying because a Tim Drake solo…the one Robin that desperately needs a Solo to get some work done, and then it is not working at all for me.
It is so annoying, finally Tim gets a spotlight and then its absolutely not good.
That is worse than not getting a Solo at all.

Anway, the rest was as expected from those titles.
They keep delivering good stuff and the money is well spent on these books imo.

 

[Babillygunn]

Doing a lot of catching up on books I missed due to work, but I wanted to chime in on the Miracleman convo.

The Alan Moore run on Miracleman is such a fascinating experiment because you get the story from two points in Moore's career: The up and coming Alan Moore who is beginning to explore the themes he'll become known for and the established, has-nothing-to-prove maestro of the medium Alan Moore. What's even more insane is how he very seamlessly blends the transition, because he jumps back into Miracleman with issue 6 of the Eclipse series after having been away from that book for several years. I believe he had finished Swamp Thing and was just starting Watchmen when Eclipse started publishing Miracleman in America.

It remains, understandably so, his least read major comic book work. I own the full run of Eclipse books and I go back to it often. Issue 15 gets all of the attention, primarily because of how gruesomely violent it is, but I maintain that issue 16, Moore's final issue, is among the best comics of ALL TIME, and one of the most beautifully written at that. Its contrast with 15 is quite staggering, but is one of the few books I re-read almost monthly.

Cumulatively, Miracleman is an incredible read on several levels and if you haven't read it, I urge you to buy the omnibus and have at it. It's so rewarding. That Gaiman is FINALLY finishing up his run (what would have been issue 25 comes out next month!!!) is one of the few comic book events that I am genuinely beyond excited for.

Also, The Anatomy Lesson, Saga of Swamp Thing #21, is my personal favorite comic of all time. That script is perfect. I read that one twice a month. It works without pictures, that's how good it is. I really wish DC would mine their vaults and reprint the script for that one. I'd love to read it.

I’m about half way through Moore’s Miracleman. It is provocative, beautiful and darkly haunting. I think the writing is just wonderful. I thought that the tone change from the first issue that was classically golden age to the darker tone of issue 2 was simply brilliant and perfectly executed.

And yes, Anatomy Lesson is soooo cinematic in how the story unfolds. I love it!

 

[Gee]

DC reprinted the Gotham Central omni earlier this year and nobody told me about it?!



Looks like they've improved the spine. Gotta get my hands on it before it gets out of print again...

 

[lespaul59]

Are the Wonder Woman Historia and the Green Lantern Jessica Cruz stories worth buying? I just learned about both in the last week. I know WWH only has two issues out and Jessica is my second favorite Lantern.

 

[Slick]

Read Superman: Son of Kal #17 and Clark is just the best parent that anybody could have. Right up there with my dear mom.

 

[lespaul59]

I'm starting to discover so much stuff that's came out over the last couple of years that I had no idea was even a thing. I just discovered the Harleen hardcover/series and also discovered that the version with the cool dust jacket is gonna be a pain to track down and most likely cost more than I might be willing to pay. Who am I kidding its more like cost more than I will pay.

I've also been surprised at how it seems like random volumes of trades are seemingly out of print. I know the pandemic hurt things but why is say volume 3 of George Perry's Wonder Woman so had to find when I'm pretty sure vol. 1,2 and 4-6 are easy to find. I think The New Teen Titans has a similar problem and I'm still looking for a physical copy of Jack Kirby's Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen.

 

[flickchick85]

Are the Wonder Woman Historia and the Green Lantern Jessica Cruz stories worth buying? I just learned about both in the last week. I know WWH only has two issues out and Jessica is my second favorite Lantern.

I haven’t read either but I’ve heard good things about Historia. I’ll definitely be looking to pick that up when it’s all collected.

 

[flickchick85]

I'm starting to discover so much stuff that's came out over the last couple of years that I had no idea was even a thing. I just discovered the Harleen hardcover/series and also discovered that the version with the cool dust jacket is gonna be a pain to track down and most likely cost more than I might be willing to pay. Who am I kidding its more like cost more than I will pay.

I've also been surprised at how it seems like random volumes of trades are seemingly out of print. I know the pandemic hurt things but why is say volume 3 of George Perry's Wonder Woman so had to find when I'm pretty sure vol. 1,2 and 4-6 are easy to find. I think The New Teen Titans has a similar problem and I'm still looking for a physical copy of Jack Kirby's Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen.

I’ve recently run into this with JLA. I have all the deluxe TPB’s except Vol. 5, and that seems to be the only one out of print for some reason. The ones both before and after that seem pretty easy to find.

 

[Gee]

Are the Wonder Woman Historia and the Green Lantern Jessica Cruz stories worth buying? I just learned about both in the last week. I know WWH only has two issues out and Jessica is my second favorite Lantern.

I haven’t read either but I’ve heard good things about Historia. I’ll definitely be looking to pick that up when it’s all collected.

Yeah I've heard nothing but great things. I didn't pick up the single issues back then since there are only two so I figured I might as well wait. As of today, the collected edition has not been announced...

@CrimsonMist and/or @Mani-Man probably read it so they could share their thoughts on the book.

 

[Babillygunn]

So, I finally finished Moore’s Miracleman run. Wow. I’m going to need to take some time to let it all sink in.

 

[CrimsonMist]

Are the Wonder Woman Historia and the Green Lantern Jessica Cruz stories worth buying? I just learned about both in the last week. I know WWH only has two issues out and Jessica is my second favorite Lantern.

Wonder Woman Historia is the best book DC is publishing. In both writing and art, it transcends the genre completely. For a character who has had her origin told and retold too many times over the last 10 years, Historia is shaping up to be THE definitive Wonder Woman story. But more than that, this book deserves to be up there with the other rare books of this caliber, like Watchmen and Hawkworld and Dark Knight Returns.

You owe it to yourself to read it.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

So, I finally finished Moore’s Miracleman run. Wow. I’m going to need to take some time to let it all sink in.

Astonishing, isn't it. Look forward to hearing your thoughts.

 

[Mani-Man]

Yeah I've heard nothing but great things. I didn't pick up the single issues back then since there are only two so I figured I might as well wait. As of today, the collected edition has not been announced...

@CrimsonMist and/or @Mani-Man probably read it so they could share their thoughts on the book.

@CrimsonMist already said everything about WW Historia...its a must read imo.
The Art alone is so incredible and deserves to be talked about more...it should be in a Art Museum.
The Writing to, it has such a weight to it and carries you through it in a way that makes you focus on everything without getting the slighest bit distracted.
It is absolutely a MUST HAVE WW book.

I've also been surprised at how it seems like random volumes of trades are seemingly out of print. I know the pandemic hurt things but why is say volume 3 of George Perry's Wonder Woman so had to find when I'm pretty sure vol. 1,2 and 4-6 are easy to find. I think The New Teen Titans has a similar problem and I'm still looking for a physical copy of Jack Kirby's Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen.

It seems weirdly random at times.
Im currently looking for the Detective Comics Vol.4 Hardcover...but it is not easy to find.
Here and there way overpriced and all.
I dont want to have the "Main Series" runs as Paperback, that is something i want to do for Black Label, Elseworld etc stories.

 

[Mani-Man]

To begin the Final Month of a fanastic Comic Book year…we get annuals.
You know how I feel about them, but I decided to give some of them my time.
And that wasn’t the worst idea.

Batgirls 2022 Annual

Okay, that is a interesting story that however feels a bit weird considering the conclusion from what I gather will come in the next issue that is not an Annual.
That’s not normal right? Normally Annuals have one Story from start to finish.
Either way, I liked it a lot.
Cool that they bring in Shiva and Cluemaster, should definitely get some neat scenes in.
So im pretty happy with this Annual

Detective Comics 2022 Annual

I don’t know if we need for any Batman book an Annual considering the Urban Legends series could work as that.
But hey, Ram V giving us more from his Genius…so im not complaining here.
And im a sucker for these kind of Batman stories…probably mainly because of the visual aspect of how people draw Batman in differen eras etc.
So again, a good Annual.
We are spoiled currently with Fantastic Writers on Batman/Batfamily stuff.

Justice Society of America #1

Ehm im a bit confused with that, does anybody know what I need to read to get the full picture?
Got a bit confused there.
Anyway, its JSA so im all in for it.
Not a huge fan of the whole Helena Wayne thing because of you know….Batcat.
But Huntress either way always good to have in a book.
And it definitely captures my interest in terms of writing and Art.
Written by Geoff Johns isn’t really a Guarantee for good stuff, but issue 1 was good and I wanna read more.
So there is a none Annual book out…whoho.


Nightwing 2022 Annual

That is Heartless Origin? Really?
Eh, not really something special.
Too much coincidence etc for my taste and it kind of ruins a potentially great villain with it.
I was hoping for something “more” on the origin.
Anyway, outside of that, the Annual was fine.
The one thing I didn’t like and never like is when the heroes clean out a room full of Super Villains easily.
It kind of ruins the danger of these characters kind of.

It’s the Annual week, for some a break, for some the usual.
After the good year DC comics had, I decided to give them a chance and it was not bad.



Slight off topic maybe, I don’t know if anybody has seen it on Twitter, I cant find it at the moment.
But someone did a really cool concept of Tim Drake as Gray Ghost and im obsessed with the idea right now.
Because I always feel like Tim needs to drop the Mantle of Robin, since Damian has it now.
I loved the Red Robin idea and I love the Idea of bringing in the Gray Ghost into the new times.
So im in love with the idea of Tim taking the Mantle of Gray Ghost, even though he doesn’t really have a connection to it.
But I just love the idea.
What is peoples general opinion of Tim Drake still being a Robin?

 

[Babillygunn]

What is peoples general opinion of Tim Drake still being a Robin?

I think that it is totally in keeping with how Tim has always been handled and written. I feel like no one outside of Marv Wolfman and James Tynion have ever written Tim to be compelling in any way. He’s always too soft to be Jason, too weak to be Damien, not cool enough to be Dick and not able to take over the intelligence mantle from Barbara. He is always just “there.” Stephanie was a welcome addition to give him an extra layer, but she ended up more compelling than him and eventually overshadowed him as well. Having him hold onto the Robin mantle is just saying aloud what DC has been saying for decades: they don’t really know what to do with him.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

I think that it is totally in keeping with how Tim has always been handled and written. I feel like no one outside of Marv Wolfman and James Tynion have ever written Tim to be compelling in any way. He’s always too soft to be Jason, too weak to be Damien, not cool enough to be Dick and not able to take over the intelligence mantle from Barbara. He is always just “there.” Stephanie was a welcome addition to give him an extra layer, but she ended up more compelling than him and eventually overshadowed him as well. Having him hold onto the Robin mantle is just saying aloud what DC has been saying for decades: they don’t really know what to do with him.

Nicely summed up

 

[Mani-Man]

I think that it is totally in keeping with how Tim has always been handled and written. I feel like no one outside of Marv Wolfman and James Tynion have ever written Tim to be compelling in any way. He’s always too soft to be Jason, too weak to be Damien, not cool enough to be Dick and not able to take over the intelligence mantle from Barbara. He is always just “there.” Stephanie was a welcome addition to give him an extra layer, but she ended up more compelling than him and eventually overshadowed him as well. Having him hold onto the Robin mantle is just saying aloud what DC has been saying for decades: they don’t really know what to do with him.

Amen to that i say.
Thats why i hang so onto this concept, because it would give Tim the push needed i think.
Give him a Mantle that is allowing him to be someone new.
Even the whole Red Robin thing was too close to where he was stuck as character.
And thats why the current Tim Drake Robin solo is annoying me so much.
Because it does absolutely nothing with Tim and is just there.
Tim deserves a writer, a team that wants to strap a rocket onto his back to give him the Push he deserves.

 

[Babillygunn]

Astonishing, isn't it. Look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Astonishing is a good word for it. This story was a better, maybe less cynical Watchmen in a lot of ways. There were so many twists and turns and I can truly say that I didn’t see most of them coming. I was surprised to see that the golden/silver age memories that Miracleman had of his adventures was simply a dream created by his scientist creator. It was interesting to think that we enjoy the innocence and adventure of those stories but reality is just something dark and ugly. The reality of the existence of supermen was jarring. I’m sure that some may disagree, but I thought that the ending, where Miracleman and Miraclewoman set up their utopia, there was an underlying darkness to that as well because that paradise was accomplished through a lot of stripping of civil liberties. It’s all very fascinating and Moore does a great job of making you uncomfortable throughout it all.
I kept wondering: how does Moore write something like this and then turn around and write something like For the Man Who Has Everything? How can he understand and pen such a classic Superman story and yet have what appears to be an innate distrust of someone as powerful as Superman?
And yes, the elephant in the room is the story of Kid Miracleman and his tragic story. The unmeasurable evil of his super-self versus the tragic goodness of his humanity was tough to read. And when the good, human side was mercilessly tortured and bullied and abused as it was…what a statement on our world! I also found it interesting how his fate was foreshadowed by Miracledog. Moore probably did a good job in not interjecting the story with a moral message, or to try to dictate to the reader how we should feel about Miracleman’s decisions. It’s left to us to weigh those and reach our own conclusions. That was a good decision on his part and makes it a story that you have to really contemplate.

There still is a lot for me to consider and ruminate upon with this story. But one thing I am abundantly sure of: this is one story that I have no interest in ever seeing go to the big screen. And definitely not in the way that Snyder did Watchmen.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

I don't normally break posts up into separate quotes, but it was the easiest way to respond to your points

I was surprised to see that the golden/silver age memories that Miracleman had of his adventures was simply a dream created by his scientist creator. It was interesting to think that we enjoy the innocence and adventure of those stories but reality is just something dark and ugly.

That was such a clever way for Moore to make his new take 'canon' with the older, original stories.

I’m sure that some may disagree, but I thought that the ending, where Miracleman and Miraclewoman set up their utopia, there was an underlying darkness to that as well because that paradise was accomplished through a lot of stripping of civil liberties.

Oh, without a doubt. In its own way it was a pretty nightmarish idea, and there was definitely an underlying sense of menace in that scenario.

I kept wondering: how does Moore write something like this and then turn around and write something like For the Man Who Has Everything? How can he understand and pen such a classic Superman story and yet have what appears to be an innate distrust of someone as powerful as Superman?

I guess on one hand he deals with the ideal of the concept, but on the flipside he deals with the - sadly, more likely(?) - 'reality' of it.

And yes, the elephant in the room is the story of Kid Miracleman and his tragic story. The unmeasurable evil of his super-self versus the tragic goodness of his humanity was tough to read. And when the good, human side was mercilessly tortured and bullied and abused as it was…what a statement on our world!

Yes. The fall of Superboy-Prime put me in mind of the fall of Kid Miracleman (but without the ultimate resolution, obviously). I wonder if it does you?

There still is a lot for me to consider and ruminate upon with this story. But one thing I am abundantly sure of: this is one story that I have no interest in ever seeing go to the big screen. And definitely not in the way that Snyder did Watchmen.

Yes, I can't somehow see this ending up as a family blockbuster! And given that it's now owned by Marvel, I can't see Disney going within a million miles of it!

Perhaps 'enjoyed' is the wrong word, but I'm glad you found it worthwhile

 

[GutterTalk]

someone did a really cool concept of Tim Drake as Gray Ghost and im obsessed with the idea right now.

Source

 

[Mani-Man]

Source

That is exactly what i was talking about, thank you.
Im hanging so onto this concept at the moment because it gives Tim something unique and because it includes the Gray Ghost into the canon more.
Such a cool concept.

 

[CLARKY]

Are the Wonder Woman Historia and the Green Lantern Jessica Cruz stories worth buying? I just learned about both in the last week. I know WWH only has two issues out and Jessica is my second favorite Lantern.

If she's your second favorite lantern, then just go for it. I enjoy this character too but only when she's well written.

 

[Babillygunn]

Yes. The fall of Superboy-Prime put me in mind of the fall of Kid Miracleman (but without the ultimate resolution, obviously). I wonder if it does you?

In a way, I see the similarities. Both lost their grounding influences and went a different way. But Superboy Prime strikes me more as an ultra-jacked up petulant teenager. That’s what makes the character so fun. I always felt like there is some room for redemption for him. Sort of like when you see a teenager rebelling and making bad decision after bad decision. You still hold out hope that he will mature and grow out of it. Obviously, with Superboy Prime, the stakes are exponentially higher because of the damage he causes. Also, we cannot forget Alexander Luthor’s influence in his life. Again, Superboy Prime is like a rebellious and petulant teen who has fallen in with a bad crowd.
Kid Miracleman, on the other hand, is more a sociopath. They have similar falls from grace and both are equally tragic, but Moore makes it really hard to imagine any scenario that could possibly lead to Kid Miracleman’s redemption. (At least not his super self’s redemption.)