The Dark Knight The Gotham Aesthetic... Or Lack Thereof.

[deathfromabove]

i loved anton furst's design for gotham. the execution made everything seem like it was a stage play however. the sets looked like sets and the "citizens" seemed like extras. even at fourteen my friends and i complained about how "canned" and fake everything seemed.

i actaully think the fact that chicago stood in for gotham worked perfectly in tdk. parts of the city seemed more industrial and run down but the finacial districts of any city are going to be clean and bright, no matter how corrupt it may be. i really enjoyed the juxtaposition. the downtown shots looked clean like a real city would but some of the other areas (the underground highway, the back alleys, etc) looked suitably dirty and urban.

like i said, making your corrupt city dark and teh gritty and rainsoaked in every shot is filmaking 101. i think nolan, crowley, and pfister have moved beyond such obvious set dressing and art direction. if gotham looked like blade runner in every shot or fursts gotham it would have ruined the grounded realism nolan established.

having said that i would have liked to see the narrows just once.

 

[Fitzwilliam]

That is what you are missing, though. Again, as I said in my 1st post, TDK is set in a part of Gotham where the business/finance/government is located, like every downtown of every major city has. It wasn't supposed to have the character of the more raw, grimmier sections of town like the narrows. You can argue that more of the neighborhoods around town should have been used to give the city a more vibrant, personal feel, but the consistency between the 2 films and how that certain section of Gotham was shot are spot on IMO.

I appreciate your posts and I see what you are saying. I disagree with you though. Gotham was too clinical. Even the central business district... And even you are right if it was just trying to represent this aspect of Gotham, I think this was a mistake. I can't think of any other medium in which Batman has been portrayed which has concentrated so much in the "nice" part of the city.



It just boils down to the fact that I like my Gotham dirty.

 

[Fitzwilliam]

like i said, making your corrupt city dark and teh gritty and rainsoaked in every shot is filmaking 101. i think nolan, crowley, and pfister have moved beyond such obvious set dressing and art direction. if gotham looked like blade runner or fursts gotham it would have ruined the grounded realism nolan established.

Let's use Seven as an example again... That film didn't suffer from what you call a cliché... In fact the pathetic fallacy greatly added to the mood of the film. And it was in NO way unrealistic either. In my view, and my impression from Nolan's two films, is that Gotham is a modern dystopia, and I think it would have been reasonable to have the visuals reflect that.

 

[deathfromabove]

i also feel that the look of gotham played into TDk's theme of duality very well.

cant please everyone i guess.

 

[Fitzwilliam]

i also feel that the look of gotham played into TDk's theme of duality very well.

cant please everyone i guess.

You not going to elaborate?

Look I'm not saying Nolan is a bad director, that would be silly. I'm just saying that I like it a different way, and I'm giving reasons.

 

[Hole Shot]

The point I thought I had been making quite clearly was that I found TDK's Gotham to be too fresh, clean and pristine. IMO, Gotham is meant to be dank and grimy, it's meant to look like a city in need of a saviour. I wanted more realism, more dirt, more grime.

Most of the movie took place in the heart of downtown where Begins went off to the ghetto and things got more surreal. But if you go into any major city, even a piss hole like L.A., the heart of downtown is usually clean and pristine because those are the financial districts. And Gotham is also run by the mob who usually control waste management/disposal literally and figuratively. Hell, coincidence or not, I use to hear when Chicago was a mob run town they were the specific reason why downtown was so clean.

 

[LegendaryCaleb]

It just boils down to the fact that I like my Gotham dirty.

I like my women that way as well
jk
but seriously I certainly get what your saying Fitz

 

[RoboAmish]

basically, while I'd like to argue some deeper point as to why the lookof Gotham in TDK reflected the overall theme of the story, the reason I prefered Gotham in TDK was because I much prefered the epic and grand feel of the city. One of my main nitpicks of Begins was the city itself, it just didn't feel like a real city due to its claustrophobic nature. I understood why Nolan chose this route but it was painfully obvious for me at times that it was all actors on a stage. I felt the claustrophobic feeling of the city constrained the story from breaking out into something that felt more epic (as hinted by the majestic scenes in Iceland) and stuck out for me. In Begins, the city felt like a loose concept and didn't feel quite believable enough, I felt it was better realised in TDK and felt more tangible and real

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

I think it was more to do with the fact that we were surrounded by different locations... and alot of the movie took place during the day...

- The grandeur of Wayne Manor was lost, not to mention the grimy atmosphere of the cave. Only to be replaced by a modern apartment and sterile garage.

- clean offices of the mayor and Dent... compared to Gordan's dimly lit one in BB.

- The interrogation room... I'm sure Nolan would have done that differently in BB.


It's still the same city... we are just getting to see different facets of it... perhaps even from different characters perspectives.

Now the chase scene with the bat-pod... and the end with Gordan's speech looks like it was culled from BB.

 

[Bads316]

I think it was more to do with the fact that we were surrounded by different locations... and alot of the movie took place during the day...

- The grandeur of Wayne Manor was lost, not to mention the grimy atmosphere of the cave. Only to be replaced by a modern apartment and sterile garage.

- clean offices of the mayor and Dent... compared to Gordan's dimly lit one in BB.

- The interrogation room... I'm sure Nolan would have done that differently in BB.


It's still the same city... we are just getting to see different facets of it... perhaps even from different characters perspectives.

Now the chase scene with the bat-pod... and the end with Gordan's speech looks like it was culled from BB.

Yeah totally, I think Nolan's trying to convey (in a very basic and efficient way) that Gotham is a very different city at night, seeing a lot of Gotham in the daytime in TDK highlights this, especially when we're able to view BB and TDK back to back - its the same place but when the sun goes down its the devils playground.

 

[Commodore Schmidlapp]

Jesus H. W. Christ, there is a new *****fest thread every single ****ing day I come in here, I swear some of you don't allow yourselves to enjoy anything.

 

[The_Dark_Knight]

I liked BB's Gotham the most.

 

[dark_b]

Jesus H. W. Christ, there is a new *****fest thread every single ****ing day I come in here, I swear some of you don't allow yourselves to enjoy anything.

what if he enjoys the movie and wants to debate about the city gotham?
what if he likes the movie and wants to be a normal inteligent poster and talk about what he didnt find perfect?
you know that everything from nolan is not perfect. maybe he is not a crazy fanatic.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Batman:

Batman Returns:

Thats when a director changes his style of cities ( whoo go Tim Burton!)


For Nolan i repeat:

It's still the same city... we are just getting to see different facets of it... perhaps even from different characters perspectives.

 

[Commodore Schmidlapp]

what if he enjoys the movie and wants to debate about the city gotham?
what if he likes the movie and wants to be a normal inteligent poster and talk about what he didnt find perfect?
you know that everything from nolan is not perfect. maybe he is not a crazy fanatic.

Hmmm, while I don't appreciate your intelligent poster remark, or your inability to spell intelligent, I see where you're coming from.

 

[dark_b]

Hmmm, while I don't appreciate your intelligent poster remark, or your inability to spell intelligent, I see where you're coming from.

i didnt want to insult you. but i know the situation on the bat-boards. there are a lot of fanatics here. i dont think that you are one of them because i dont knwo you.
but this doesnt look like a thread for bashing IMO.

 

[Commodore Schmidlapp]

i didnt want to insult you. but i know the situation on the bat-boards. there are a lot of fanatics here. i dont think that you are one of them because i dont knwo you.
but this doesnt look like a thread for bashing IMO.

Agreed, it was an unnecessary rant.

 

[Secret_Riddle]

To be honest, I don't think Nolan intentionally wanted to make Gotham all that different..if he had wanted it to be a different city altogether he wouldn't have included shots of the monorails, or shots of the art deco building Wayne Tower during the Joker fight scene..he seemed like he wanted to keep continuity. For me at least I feel the "problem" if you can even call it that stemmed from the fact that many scenes took place during the day. During night shots the city felt the exact same as the one from Batman Begins to me. The lack of the narrows and the addition of day shots is what caused the difference in atmosphere. Its like comparing Harlem to Soho. Gotham felt expanded but consistent to me.

 

[Secret_Riddle]

I've also chalked up scenes which share continuity with Batman Begins, or show the same grimy world as Batman Begins (through the brownish atmosphere).


-Approach to the second Wayne tower, monorail in background
-Shot of monorail for a second time in a city shot
-Brown tint over Batmans interrogation of Maroni, and Harvey Dents interrogation of the Arkham escapee
-Brown tint during the interrogation scene, and the Jokers escape
-Brown tint over the tunnel chase and truck flip
-Brown tint during Rachels death
-Similar atmosphere to the Chicago shots from Batman Begins as Batman infiltrates the Hostage building.
-Brown tint during the entire climax with Harvey Dent

To be honest I thought it was pretty consistent.

 

[NoirMan82]

Yes but where was that continuity!? It was totally absent! I don't mind the change in colour scheme, I actually liked it... But they were like two completely different cities!!!

And I agree with you. I think the point was to put them into our world... But name one American city which is that clean and crisp and pristine?! Seven took place in our world, Heat took place in our world, and they didn't take place in unrealistically perfect looking cities.

Name a city that is that clean? Okay. Chicago!

 

[NoirMan82]

I've also chalked up scenes which share continuity with Batman Begins, or show the same grimy world as Batman Begins (through the brownish atmosphere).


-Approach to the second Wayne tower, monorail in background
-Shot of monorail for a second time in a city shot
-Brown tint over Batmans interrogation of Maroni, and Harvey Dents interrogation of the Arkham escapee
-Brown tint during the interrogation scene, and the Jokers escape
-Brown tint over the tunnel chase and truck flip
-Brown tint during Rachels death
-Similar atmosphere to the Chicago shots from Batman Begins as Batman infiltrates the Hostage building.
-Brown tint during the entire climax with Harvey Dent

To be honest I thought it was pretty consistent.

As someone pointed out, it the ground/night shots against the day shots. Chicago's orange street lights give it that gritty, almost horror-movie like atmosphere at night. Thus, day shots looked clean/pristine (Chicago is surprisingly clean compared to most big cities) and night shots looked dead-on with BB.

 

[Motown Marvel]

i thought the city in TDK could have used more imagination and style. just because there's a realism angle being pushed, doesnt mean it needs to be completely stripped of its fantasy and imagination.

 

[hatebox]

i thought the city in TDK could have used more imagination and style. just because there's a realism angle being pushed, doesnt mean it needs to be completely stripped of its fantasy and imagination.

Like it or not, the imagination comes from translating these extraordinary characters to our world.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I missed The Narrows. So much.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Like it or not, the imagination comes from translating these extraordinary characters to our world.

it takes far less imagination to dress a guy up like batman and sit him down in chicago than it does conceiving and building a unique and imaginative city around him.