Discussion in 'Iron Man 3' started by Thread Manager, Nov 15, 2012.
it was both pym and banner. Pym's name reference however was cut
I`ve previously hinted at why. Some could be one of the many plans up for review at one time or another, by focus groups some people I know participated in. I may be purposely picking the things that might not have tested well and may or may not be used. Other times I`m posting actual plans that will very likely come to fruition. I never know anything has gone ahead until I start working backwards. To protect myself + make it all half-accurate I`ve combined things... The funny thing is if Marvel is reading this I`m showing them how we would combine some of the concepts we have access to, based on things that could be set up. My main source is helping me. This person has some slightly different views on things but I often combine our views or represent both.
I`m not directly revealing anything that hasn`t already been theorized in any major way (except for Sterns over in the Thor thread). A lot of these long ass posts will disappear. Sometimes I have to look at just how much I can get away with speculating. I know characters and villains. Pieces of the puzzle.
The good thing is that even when Feige was in control they were surveying people normally involved in these things and they also have their own marvel consultants who coordinate things with the comics and now some parts of Marvel NOW. So some things get exchanged but we`re dealing in concepts. Not absolutes. I have to work backwards to get to absolutes and use clues from the official info they release. However I also have access to some of the basic concepts that will very likely appear.
For example: because cross sections of casual movie fans, hardcore fans, comic fans and random members of focus groups etc have been shown to have a lot of positive reactions to the concept of Ultron, that plan got moved ahead I believe. There`s now quite a lot of talk of him possibly being used in Avengers 2, with Thanos of course. what you have to factor in is nearly everything you need to see in an Avengers trilogy. Because there`s only so much time to display so many villains we may see two main villains in the next Avengers. Certain options are weighed even right down to basic plot ideas. IMO it`s crossed the line into certainty with what they`re coordinating with Age of Ultron. Doesn`t necessarily mean he shows up here. I`m trying to work that into Wasp when maybe i shouldn`t be yet.
There are only certain groups my source ends up in so I can`t be much more specific in this post.
Making my posts long and seem like pure speculation works to my advantage. So i combine all the pieces to show how they could be done and sometimes the actual plans. So that marvel understands if they`re reading this, what I`m doing. And that I`m not giving it all away because half will see it as too much and disregard the true parts.... Some will see that certain parts of it can work, because I`ve actually taken Marvel`s plans and reworded them. A lot of it can work. By no means will it all be combined. That`s my trick to keep myself out of trouble, you have to pay attention to characters I mention more than the theories.
By combining it all and showing how it COULD work I could even be working out problems in the original concepts and getting your feedback to feed to focus groups, slightly influencing the course of events in not these movies but ones further down the line. Meaning you would have a small say in things through my contact... This is honestly the best forum to get feedback and conduct this experiment. I`m curious if marvel reps watch the boards and would take interest in what I`m doing. People here are more logical than on other sites and often do have parts of plots figured out like many did with Avengers last year, then there`s the passer bys like Jordanstine.
When they start coming up with ideas for scripts and fielding some of their changes I might find out more (BP and Strange have already been in the works for a long time, there are definitely scripts). By presenting multiple concepts and even showing how the time travel one might work I`m preserving the secrets in the same way they do--covering up the true scenario or scenario they`re leaning towards somewhere in there. Making this an extension of that process without their permission, and still preserving the secrecy of what they could be looking at--with their own methods.
that's his point though guy. He says what he knows, but over fills the blanks intentionally. right? and thanks Loki, I actually got everything I was wondering after reading through this
id rather he not say anything if he's going to give us misleading info purposely it's no fun when we know he's doing it lol
Good god, LokiD, why would Marvel try to create a byzantine plot like that which is (a) too complicated and (b) so far away from canonical Jan --- either 616 or Ultimate --- and then try to attach it to a cameo in a movie that is titled "IRON MAN 3.....?"
Stop trying to overthink these things. People go to Iron Man movies to see Iron Man. Nobody....but nobody....wants to go to an Iron Man sequel and watch some long, drawn-out subplot that involves some chick that the general audience doesn't even know trying to track down clues to the disappearance of her ex who isn't even slated to appear in the MCU until 2015.....???
Again: this is "IRON MAN 3," *not* "Ant-Man: Prologue."
If....IF....by some bizarre chance, Szostak does indeed wind up playing Janet Van Dyne, I can almost guarantee you that she'll have no more than 3-5 minutes of screen time, and there'll be nary a hint that she will become The Winsome Wasp at some point in the MCU future, nor even that she's attached to the Ant-Man story at all.
This movie is about Iron Man getting "back to his cave," taking on the terrorist leader known as Mandarin, having the Extremis experiment go horribly wrong, sort out his relationship with Pepper Potts, and deal with his frenemy Col. James Rhodes, who is himself juggling an identity crisis involving War Machine and Iron Patriot.
There is absolutely no place left inside an already jam-packed subplot buffet to try to introduce the Hank and Janet Show in such a bizarre and twisted and bloated manner that would not only confuse the hell out of general audiences, but dedicated Avenger fanboys like myself as well.
you really need to drop that mind set... most things arn't happening "exactly the same"
Forget about comic-book continuity: I'm talking simple business and plot strategy. The movie we KNOW about, based on trailers and interviews and press releases, is complicated enough without trying to tack on a mind-numbingly complicated backstory to a minor character who's --- at best --- a brief cameo in this film.
Audiences will not sit still for it, period. They care about *Tony* and the people around him; they won't give a **** about vaguely peripheral characters that don't become integral to the MCU until the Ant-Man film in 2015.
not everything is for the GA... there's always touches of things thrown in there for the fanboys... there could be nods without having anything in your face... and there's nothing wrong with that. it just shouldn't detract from the story. it should only help flush it out.
If you can successfully add more to the world without detracting from the story you are telling.. then i say go for it
If they add all that rigamarole about Janet Van Dyne to this movie, it'll definitely "flush it out".....right down the crapper.
Loki goes a bit over-board with his explaining... i think he was just trying to say what he think's jan's over all story arc is over a couple movies..
He's already mentioned that he thinks jan's name wont even be mentioned.. and she plays a small part. you just find out who she is later on in the MCU franchise
I'm willing to bet 1 million internet dollars that it IS Janet and that CherokeeSam will be eating his words and all for the character once the movie actually comes out. I think you're just trying to find something to dislike in the movies process. 95% of the people who will be seeing the film do not care about the character of the Wasp/Janet they just want to see a new/strange/secretive character in the movie and that's what she will provide.
I also agree w/ LokiD on the Ultron as preliminary A.I. system. It all just makes too much sense not to be what's next. Janet will probably be undercover w/ AIM trying to get back the Ultron A.I. from them that they stole from Hank as some part of a small sub story in IM3 that will steal non of Tony's glory that some of you seem to be afraid about.
I mean I'm sure the people at Marvel know what they are doing, they're pretty much 6 for 6 with producing awesome comic book inspired movies in the MCU while added characters and keeping the fanbase interested. Janet in IM3 is either going to be like Widow in IM2 where she's a supporting character we don't know much about but you can tell she has more to come in the future, or she'll be like Hawkeye in Thor who's kinda just a throwaway character for people to be like: "wow cool it's hawkeye!". I'm assuming she's in more a Black Widow role since more will be coming from her, Hank, and Ultron in Phase2.. plus that scary Thanos fella in the background somewhere
As long as you're prepared to put your internet money where your internet mouth is... (Your ass, evidently)
ouch I'm hurt. it's pretty obvious though isn't it?
can i get in on this bet? double or nothing
You're that sure Wasp is in the film? Woah!
No, none of it is obvious. It's speculation, and parts of it could be possible, PARTS of it, but not in the way that Loki is describing at all. And the contempt you're showing to Cherokeesam, who as far as I'm concerned is a veteran of these MCU threads, just makes you look all the more credible.
How anyone can bet or even THINK of 'guaranteeing' something based purely on speculation is beyond me, but clearly it's something to to pay too much attention to.
Funnily enough, 1 million internet dollars time 2 is still Zero actual dollars. In fact, I think ends up actually costing you money... and dignity.
Just to make it shorter
Well we wouldn't even know it's her for the whole movie, and Pym is sort of thrown into the mix during the credits but we wouldn't actually see him.
I realize it's confusing the way I lay things out and sometimes there's hidden double meaning... however this would all go along with what I'm saying about them being part of a bigger world now and they just don't know it.
These movies are being planned to be a lot bigger...
There is an AI subplot in this movie and a controlling things subplot.
Part of Ant Man's story has already played out.
Because Ant Man occurs in the past.
That's the only reason you think her character may be strange right now.
Something happened that we're not supposed to know until Ant Man actually comes out. We're not supposed to know it's her until the credits and it sets up a further mystery element... almost to generate intrigue in the characters with the general audience...
She's trying to stop the technology, which hasn't become fully self aware yet. Ultron technically wouldn't be complete...AIM steals Stark's AI network design and Mandarin's own evil technology becomes self aware.
Way further down the line is when everything would be revealed and she would grow into a leader....
But Stark doesn't even know what shes doing yet... The whole point is that she has a mind of her own separate from Hank... Once revealed and her character is furthered her role in IM3 may retroactively be a lot more clear, so the way you interpret the movie may all change after Avengers 2... and some of this may be true for the other movies as well. the thing about this is that it wouldn't be fully explained until Ant Man acts as a prequel to almost the whole series... at least the modern parts of it starting sometime in the 80s when AIM got started..
The whole reason for the plan to address where Pym has gone is because Wasp's character seems pretty much set to appear before him, and Marvel/Whedon seem set on using her. More or less another rough plan exists to bring the character of Wasp into Avengers 2 and my source has even seen concept art and all that helping them decide how to make her look in Avengers 2... There was a very Waspy plan to Avengers and there is a very Waspy plan in action for Avengers 2, Whedon was trying to drop us all hints. They actually got to the script stage in early Avengers drafts with Wasp in the story. That's key.
The plans can always change and I've seen different scenarios, but the gist of what they're going for seems to be to set up some mystery for where Pym is. And then finally reveal it all in Ant Man, after Avengers 2.
They want to present Pym a certain way too I'm sure, but I know more about Wasp so some of this is me speculating to try to figure things out for myself.
Even though there's test footage, the actor playing Pym won't be announced/revealed because its not set and he's a bigger part of Ant Man. it was easier to find someone to play Wasp because they don't have to lead the movie and have a lot of other plans for her.
Well as I've said that's only one of the concepts, the basic idea is she grows into a leader over time.
There's a few different ways they could bring them into it, but the main thing is that Wasps role will likely become that of a sort of field leader who settles disputes between the others.
It's their idea to make Wasp a big part of this and always has been.
We're not supposed to know what she's doing.
And like everything Jan would be sort of a mixture of 616 and ultimates and other incarnations, she actually wants to be in the battles whereas Pym doesn't at first.
A lot of other aspects of the character are completely what you'd expect, the Ant Man movie sets up their powers and all that, so the fact they already have powers and we don't know who they are completely yet, and Pym is missing makes the general audience need to see Ant Man as part of the plan. The thing is Ant Man is now set to explain some other things in a prequelish way. It may be Pym looking back on the name Ant Man, completely accepting it after Lang dies...
I'm not overthinking, I've just got two heads working on it and too much information coming from my source. Some of it winds up mixed and it's not on purpose.
Ahhhh another person with a so called "source" always fun.
I'm really jumping ahead too much just to show how Wasp could work. There are definitely plans to use her in Avengers 2... I'm just trying to connect a lot of it when really it could be as simple as a cameo for now.
Almost more like Hawkeye than Backwidow, but her presence in the story is more than Hawkeye and has the benefit of being made more clear in the future.
Although it could be like that, I'm thinking she shows up once or twice in the story as a mysterious character but then again in the after credits to explain a tiny bit more about AIM. somethings going on at AIM and maybe we get a reveal like she's spying on a meeting of some sort in miniature form. Maybe at first it's shot from a perspective that makes it look like she's hiding around a corner or something then it reveals that she's in miniature form, and she flies out through a series of vents when Zemo spots her buzzing around revealing who she is and some of Zemo's plan simultaneously.
The more details there are, the more i call BS.
I'm on your side... There's one short haired girl showed for a second in the trailer and because someone said "WASP" she's automatically Janet. This is pure speculation...beyond speculation even.
It's the classic fanboy wish fulfilment, where they WANT something to be true so they forget to scrutinise any info that might confirm what they want.
And then there are the people who like to be the one to GIVE them what they want, even if it's horsecrap.... It's a bizarre cycle of events.
1 million Internet dollars....?!?!
Call my Interwebs bookie and book that action....I'm in.
Loki, you've got speculation heaped upon speculation there. You're taking one speculative angle at face value and piling another speculation on top of that, then accepting *that* speculation as fact so that you can pile *more* speculation on top of that....it's a house of cards.
Look outside the box. Put things in perspective. Yes, we know that Whedon originally intended for Wasp to be in Avengers 1, but he says he couldn't find a place for her....that means that, even if your "sources" and speculation about this "Waspy" script were right, even Joss thought it was all bull**** and scrapped it from Day One.
The other point to consider is that if/when Janet Van Dyne shows up in the MCU, she will, of necessity, have/need a role in Edgar Wright's Ant-Man movie. Anything the screenwriter does for Janet in any prior movies (like, per your speculation, IM3 and Avengers 2) would have a great impact on what Wright can or cannot do with the character, then, in *his* movie. Do you really think that Shane Black or Joss Whedon want to step on Edgar Wright's toes and shackle him to THEIR vision for Janet....? I strongly doubt it.
Another point: you're basing your theories about Hank Pym being in the past on a first draft of a Joe Cornish script that's already gone through at least three rewrites and six years of a rapidly changing environment at Marvel Studios. We have no evidence whatsoever that the original concept of a 1960s Pym and a 21st century Lang are even in play any more.
And finally, the other point to consider is: is Stephanie Szostak superhero material? Does anybody here really envision Stephanie Szostak as becoming a prime mover in the Avengersverse? Someone whose star power will carry through all the Avengers sequels and Ant-Man? Off of a bit part in IM3? She's hiding her age well, but I've seen her in several movies, and she may be a pretty lady, but she's also a pretty old lady. I'd say she's chasing 40 and catching up to it in a damn quick hurry, if she hasn't already taken the lead.
I strongly doubt Szostak is Marvel's choice for a major Avenger. When Janet Van Dyne *does* enter the MCU, it will be a major role, and it will be very publicly known, because Marvel will go through the same very public auditioning and casting sessions that they've done for all their other lead heroes, up to and including the buzz surrounding casting for Star-Lord and Drax in GOTG right now. Renner and ScarJo are the only major MS superheroes I can think of that amounted to "surprise" announcements; and the surprise there came from the fact that they landed marquee Oscar-caliber players. Szostak, on the other hand, is a Hollywood nobody, comparatively speaking.