The Israel-Palestine Politics Thread II

[Thundercrack85]

Let's assume you're right for a minute. What does that have to do with the plight of the Palestinian people? Isn't Germany and Japan part of the G8 some 70 odd years after WWII? Is Japan still occupied by the US? So what makes Palestine any different?

The fact is that since the 70's Israelis have been systematically/aggressively pushing Palestinians out of their own country and the rest of the world is too vaginal or have too many interests tied to the Israeli government to intervene. The US loves harping on about human rights this and that, but when it comes to Israel they conveniently turn a blind eye. Imagine living through the civil rights era where you are the discriminated party on what is your native land.

As far as I'm concerned Netanyahu and Assad are cut from the same cloth.

Let's assume? No mainstream historian disputes that this guy was a genocidal racist. That's all I said.

Though now that you mention it, most Palestinians still refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist, and Hamas to has references to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in its charter.

Yes, Israel is committing various human rights violations, but let's not pretend Palestine is Japan.

 

[hippie_hunter]

If Israel didn't instigate the Gaza War last year, Hamas would have recognized Israel in the unity government they were forming with Fatah.

 

[Thundercrack85]

What I'm saying is that no side has a monopoly on the moral high ground.

 

[HeyZeus]

Where the Jews suppose to go? Levant WAS their homeland. Jews where being rounded up and killed.

Also isn't Iran and Hamas calling for the destruction of Israel and it's people? Both sides have their loons.

BiBi has always been unreasonable when it comes to dealing with Palestinian Authority but that Authority has zero control on how Hamas acts.

I think it is a stretch but I am sure that guy encouraged Hitler.



Stop being stupid. BiBi is not absolving Hitler.

Then what's the point of making stupid statements like "Hitler didn't want to kill the jews, he just wanted to move them out of Germany."

Historians around the world have already called him on his ********.

 

[hippie_hunter]

What I'm saying is that no side has a monopoly on the moral high ground.

I agree with that to an extent. But when you take into account that Israel had an integral part in the formation of Hamas to undermine the secular Fatah government and has engaged in far more transgressions, it's obvious that even though Hamas has no moral high ground, Israel's sins are far greater.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

There has always been a Jewish presence in Levant. The Jews wanted barely 1/2 of what is todays Israel but the Arabs attacked them and got the asses handed to them again and again.

Historic Israel has occupied less time and space than the empires that have existed in that region. They had an empire that lasted only a few hundred years. Muslims and Romans have had empires in the region for over a 1000 years.

"Additionally, land ownership statistics from 1945 showed that Arabs owned more land than Jews in every single district of Palestine, including Jaffa, where Arabs owned 47 percent of the land while Jews owned 39 percent – and Jaffa boasted the highest percentage of Jewish-owned land of any district. In other districts, Arabs owned an even larger portion of the land. At the extreme other end, for instance, in Ramallah, Arabs owned 99 percent of the land. In the whole of Palestine, Arabs owned 85 percent of the land, while Jews owned less than 7 percent, which remained the case up until the time of Israel’s creation.

Yet, despite these facts, the U.N. partition recommendation had called for more than half of the land of Palestine to be given to the Zionists for their “Jewish State”. The truth is that no Arab could be reasonably expected to accept such an unjust proposal. For political commentators today to describe the Arabs’ refusal to accept a recommendation that their land be taken away from them, premised upon the explicit rejection of their right to self-determination, as a “missed opportunity” represents either an astounding ignorance of the roots of the conflict or an unwillingness to look honestly at its history."

Source

Citation please.

http://www.vice.com/read/sam-kriss-...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/28/594309...-of-the-gaza-crisis-did-hamas-actually-kill-3

http://972mag.com/the-unfolding-lie-of-operation-protective-edge/93605/

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/killed-turning-onslaught

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html

http://972mag.com/how-netanyahu-provoked-this-war-with-gaza/93200/

http://theweek.com/articles/444831/3-big-lies-supporting-israels-war-gaza

http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/israeli-lies-to-justify-attacks-on-hamas-exposed-sadly

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

like you and thankprogress and Msnbc or Hamas news. I have Jewish friends and I am 46 so I am old enough to remember who PLO and Arab states would attack Israel.

Also I stopped watching fox when Glen Beck left. I found the chalkboards and his doom and gloom stick comical. I would just sit their, drink a beer and laugh at all his BS about Obama. Obama is no where near the worst or the best POTUS. His foreign policy is f'ing embarassment though.

BiBI IS A roadblock to peace between Israel and the Palestinians but Hamas and the PLO haven't changed their stance on Israel's right to exist. Also other Arab nations haven't exactly helped the situation as well.

Unlike some people on this board, I get my political news from non-biased sources that provide factual evidence for their claims. I do like Gawker for their liberal stance on a lot of things but much like you and Beck it's mostly for the lulz. I also enjoy the discourse that everyone brings to the table here in the politics sub-forum. Numerous people I just laugh at but there are several posters that consider themselves Republicans who's opinions I enjoy and causes me to think on certain matters.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Historic Israel has occupied less time and space than the empires that have existed in that region. They had an empire that lasted only a few hundred years. Muslims and Romans have had empires in the region for over a 1000 years.

"Additionally, land ownership statistics from 1945 showed that Arabs owned more land than Jews in every single district of Palestine, including Jaffa, where Arabs owned 47 percent of the land while Jews owned 39 percent – and Jaffa boasted the highest percentage of Jewish-owned land of any district. In other districts, Arabs owned an even larger portion of the land. At the extreme other end, for instance, in Ramallah, Arabs owned 99 percent of the land. In the whole of Palestine, Arabs owned 85 percent of the land, while Jews owned less than 7 percent, which remained the case up until the time of Israel’s creation.

Yet, despite these facts, the U.N. partition recommendation had called for more than half of the land of Palestine to be given to the Zionists for their “Jewish State”. The truth is that no Arab could be reasonably expected to accept such an unjust proposal. For political commentators today to describe the Arabs’ refusal to accept a recommendation that their land be taken away from them, premised upon the explicit rejection of their right to self-determination, as a “missed opportunity” represents either an astounding ignorance of the roots of the conflict or an unwillingness to look honestly at its history."

Source




http://www.vice.com/read/sam-kriss-...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/28/594309...-of-the-gaza-crisis-did-hamas-actually-kill-3

http://972mag.com/the-unfolding-lie-of-operation-protective-edge/93605/

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/killed-turning-onslaught

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html

http://972mag.com/how-netanyahu-provoked-this-war-with-gaza/93200/

http://theweek.com/articles/444831/3-big-lies-supporting-israels-war-gaza

http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/israeli-lies-to-justify-attacks-on-hamas-exposed-sadly

Midnyte_Sun also forgot to add this portion to his post:

*drops the mic*

So I have done that for him

 

[Taarna]

If Israel didn't instigate the Gaza War last year, Hamas would have recognized Israel in the unity government they were forming with Fatah.

This is correct. Isreal's restraint is remarkable. Could you imagine is a small patch of land was terrorizing the USA and digging in tunnels to our lands with the intention to kill or destroy?. The repercussions would be swift and deadly.

Hamas voted " for war ". There can be no peace when one side wants only war.

 

[SerialPeacemake]

This is correct. Isreal's restraint is remarkable. Could you imagine is a small patch of land was terrorizing the USA and digging in tunnels to our lands with the intention to kill or destroy?. The repercussions would be swift and deadly.

You mean the day of old cowboys and Indians right?The Isreali "restraint " is remarkably similar to what the US government did to the Indians of yore, only on a different scale.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

This is correct. Isreal's restraint is remarkable. Could you imagine is a small patch of land was terrorizing the USA and digging in tunnels to our lands with the intention to kill or destroy?. The repercussions would be swift and deadly.

Hamas voted " for war ". There can be no peace when one side wants only war.

Jews smuggled weapons and aid during the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. What the Palestinians are doing is because of restrictive policies enacted by Israel to punish people of Gaza for electing Hamas. They are still under occupation and all aid and goods have to be approved by Israel and are usually from Israeli companies so Israel always makes profit from their own destruction.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

You mean the day of old cowboys and Indians right?The Isreali "restraint " is remarkably similar to what the US government did to the Indians of yore, only on a different scale.

It can be compared to the American Indian genocide and ethnic cleansing; However, the apartness/apartheid of South Africa is too lenient a comparison as the White population needed the black population for all manual labour. In this case, Israel is WORSE than apartheid because they are ethnically cleansing them and forcing them to live as refugees inside and outside Israel.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Palestine 1896, before the occupation and colonial settlement by Zionists



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vaIK8wlAl0

 

[hippie_hunter]

This is correct. Isreal's restraint is remarkable.

[YT]x3Q55tLag-I[/YT]

Could you imagine is a small patch of land was terrorizing the USA and digging in tunnels to our lands with the intention to kill or destroy?. The repercussions would be swift and deadly.

I honestly don't get this logic of the pro-Israel side that they just expect the Palestinians to just put their asses up in the air and just take it. Israel is the occupying power. Israel is the one that is the one that is instigating the current hostilities by constructing on Palestinian land, treating Palestinians like garbage, treating Israeli Arabs as second class citizens, and even starting the violence (the rockets that Hamas fired were in retaliation for Israeli air strikes).

You people are in a delusional la-la land. And I honestly mean it with every fiber of my heart.

Hamas voted " for war ". There can be no peace when one side wants only war.

I love it how you conveniently forget that the Israelis elected a warmongering racist for Prime Minister. Hamas was going to recognize Israel. Netanyahu on the other hand has vowed that there will never be a Palestinian state under his watch. Which one voted for war I might ask?

 

[Taarna]

You mean the day of old cowboys and Indians right?The Isreali "restraint " is remarkably similar to what the US government did to the Indians of yore, only on a different scale.

There was never a nation called Palestine. It was just a geographical terms. But to say Isreal did not give back is wrong.

In 2005, Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians. Israel gave up every inch of the land, uprooting thousands of settlers and relinquishing strategically vital territory. Rather than getting peace in return, Israel got terror: Hamas control of Gaza, Qassam rockets raining down on southern Israel, and the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit. The Gaza experience proves that "land for peace" doesn't work with radicals.

The Gaza people were dancing in the streets and burning USA flags during 911. When hate is in your region it makes negotiations rather difficult.

I say again, Isreal's restraint is remarkable. If a group was doing something like this to the USA, they would be a parking lot and graveyard.

 

[Taarna]

Jews smuggled weapons and aid during the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. What the Palestinians are doing is because of restrictive policies enacted by Israel to punish people of Gaza for electing Hamas. They are still under occupation and all aid and goods have to be approved by Israel and are usually from Israeli companies so Israel always makes profit from their own destruction.

Maybe if they ( Palestinians or Gaza ) police their own and stop making terrorist-like attacks the restrictions imposed on them for security reasons will lighten up and eventually go away in time.

Why not try it? Fighting is a losing proposition for them.

Bad political leadership, mindless attacks against citizens ( Not military target's ), and radical religion with many references to hate that clearly say DO NOT BEFRIEND ANY JEW OR CHRISTIAN, are reasons why these people have it tough.

 

[hippie_hunter]

There was never a nation called Palestine. It was just a geographical terms.

Still doesn't change the fact that in the UN mandate that created the State of Israel also meant for there to be an Arab state in the former British Mandate of Palestine.

But to say Isreal did not give back is wrong.

Israel really hasn't given up anything. And even if they did, giving up things that don't belong to them in the first place is not net positive.

In 2005, Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians.

And yet still control Gaza's airspace and access to sea. And blockading them from vital trade.

Israel gave up every inch of the land, uprooting thousands of settlers and relinquishing strategically vital territory.

Land that didn't belong to them and settlers that had no right to be there to begin with.

Rather than getting peace in return, Israel got terror: Hamas control of Gaza, Qassam rockets raining down on southern Israel, and the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit. The Gaza experience proves that "land for peace" doesn't work with radicals.

1. Those rocket attacks were in retaliation for Israeli attacks on Hamas.

2. Those rocket attacks barely do any damage to Israel.

3. Like it or not, Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. And they were elected because the Palestinians see the Israelis as oppressors and Hamas are the only ones really standing up against them.

4. Hamas was prepared to recognize Israel. But Israel did not want a unity government between Hamas and Fatah because it would have disrupted the status-quo that Israel has created.

5. These groups are radicalized because of Israel. Israel had a huge hand in creating Hamas by funding them to disrupt the secular Fatah movement in the 1970's. The radicalization came about because Israel is occupying their land and oppressing the people who live there.

The Gaza people were dancing in the streets and burning USA flags during 911. When hate is in your region it makes negotiations rather difficult.

They did things like that because we give the Israelis the tools to kill and oppress them.

I say again, Isreal's restraint is remarkable. If a group was doing something like this to the USA, they would be a parking lot and graveyard.

They did that to Gaza last year. Most men in Gaza actually suffer from PTSD from Israel's attacks. There is no ****ing restraint you delusional fool.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Maybe if they ( Palestinians or Gaza ) police their own and stop making terrorist-like attacks the restrictions imposed on them for security reasons will lighten up and eventually go away in time.

Many of the attacks now come from Israeli Arabs, not Palestinian Arabs. Hamas and Fatah do not have control over them. Maybe if the Israeli government didn't treat these people like second class citizens, what we're seeing now, wouldn't happen.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Arabs lived in what was called Palestine. So did a small minority it of Jews. Then an influx of Jews from Europe moved to Palestine and took it over. Palestinian Arabs not happy with that situation were forced out.

The ones who didn't leave have been living as second class citizens (or not even citizens in the occupied zones) ever since.

Israel exists at the expense of Palestinians. You can not expect Israeli to have their best interests at heart.

If there is to be any real peace, it has to be brought about by a third party.

 

[Charlatan]

Taarna. Why is it always Palestine that needs to capitulate first? How about Israel in a good show of faith remove all settlers ,go back inside their official boundaries, remove blockades and occupying forces and say they will acknowledge a Palestinian state?

If they were to do all that they might see an end to the small resistance fighting that they use as an excuse to invade and occupy.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I have a theory that Taarna is actually Benjamin Netenyahu.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Taarna. Why is it always Palestine that needs to capitulate first? How about Israel in a good show of faith remove all settlers ,go back inside their official boundaries, remove blockades and occupying forces and say they will acknowledge a Palestinian state?

If they were to do all that they might see an end to the small resistance fighting that they use as an excuse to invade and occupy.

Israel believes that a Palestinian state is a threat against its Security. It has NEVER wanted a Palestinian state in earnest. They also don't want to admit the millions of refugees they created because that would threaten the "Jewish" character of Israel.

Unfortunately, time will make it apparent to Israel it can't live as a colony forever and it will have to blend into the Middle East like every other nation and even if it were to maintain a semblance of a nation, it would be doing so with a pluralistic society of Palestinians and Zionist Jews living together side by side. Palestinians have to accept these European, Asian, and African Jews living beside them as well for the sake of progress and peace.

It's only a matter of time.

 

[chaseter]

Jews hate Palestinians and Palestinians hate the Jews. Let them settle it themselves. The US shouldn't take sides or fund either. Intervention needs only apply if war breaks out.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Israel accused of Organ harvesting dead Palestinians in recent clashes

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - The Israeli ambassador to the United Nations on Wednesday rejected Palestinian allegations that Israel had recently harvested organs from Palestinians its forces had killed, condemning the charges as anti-Semitic.

In a letter to British Ambassador Matthew Rycroft, president of the U.N. Security Council this month, the chief Palestinian delegate at the United Nations, Riyad Mansour, described what he said was the alleged harvesting of body parts of Palestinians killed by Israeli forces.

"After returning the seized bodies of Palestinians killed by the occupying forces through October, and following medical examinations, it has been reported that the bodies were returned with missing corneas and other organs," Mansour wrote Rycroft on Tuesday.

He added that this was confirmation of "past reports about organ harvesting."

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCAKCN0ST32420151104


--

Unfortunately, this isn't the first time it has been reported, and not the first time an Israeli was convicted for illegal organ trade.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Israeli-born Clinical Psychotherapist deems Netanyahu Calculating and Insane

Netanyahu is in the process of mobilising and radicalising the entire society in Israel to escalate the murder of the Palestinians in order to push the Palestinians to leave once and for all. You don’t need everyone to go berserk, only enough to instil such fear that will lead to masses of people fleeing. Where they will go, Israel does not care. They didn’t care in 1948 or 1967, and they don’t care now. They just want them out. We are witnessing a repetition of the policies of 1948 and 1967 where Palestinians were driven out by every means possible calculated to spread panic.

There is no reason for the latest escalation we see, except Israel’s impatience that the Palestinians are still there and are still resisting. Israel was hoping a war with Iran would create a smokescreen for the final solution to the ‘Palestinian problem’. If this isn’t going to happen, they will do it anyway. The world has already proven repeatedly that Israel can get away with anything, and Israel is counting on it.

- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/11/netanyahus-calculated-palestinians#sthash.p10DExsL.dpuf