The Jesus Christ Appreciation and Worship Thread

[Warhammer]

on the contrary, it makes it contradictory to the character and morals of God. SentinelMind says that once someone is saved, they can go back to the exact same lifestlyle they were living in before they were saved, with sin, wickedness, unrighteousness, and ungodliness, and somehow it wont matter...

Personally, I believe that if one truly believes, he or she isn't going to be like "I'm saved now...awesome..." and act as if nothing even happened. As the Holy Spirit inhabits you, you aren't going to be compelled to live the life prior to being saved. Of course, there is a natural progression, not a corny ass "Oh, I see the light" night and day change.

 

[Super Kal]

Personally, I believe that if one truly believes, he or she isn't going to be like "I'm saved now...awesome..." and act as if nothing even happened. As the Holy Spirit inhabits you, you aren't going to be compelled to live the life prior to being saved. Of course, there is a natural progression, not a corny ass "Oh, I see the light" night and day change.

the Holy Spirit does inhabit us, but He does not force us to do the Father's will, nor does He take control over us. In all essence, He still can be quenched, and resisted...

1 Thessalonians 5:19
Do not quench the Spirit.

Acts 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

in Matthew 3:11, John the Baptist tells us Jesus will come and baptize us with the Holy Spirit and fire, yet from Paul in 1 Thjessalonians, we also see that through disobedience and sin, the Holy Spirit is taken away. the Spirit of the Lord was removed from King Saul because of his disobedience...

and many people do experience that, Warhammer... it's called "easy believism"... it's a false gospel that teaches all you gotta do is answer to an alter call, say the sinners prayer, and from then on, no matter what you do, no matter what sin you commit, you are saved.

that's the danger of teaching such things... you take away the responsibility and free will of the Christian, and allow for a very antinomian lifestyle.
and concerning the light and day approach, yes, that does happen. in Acts 8, Philip preaches to an Ethiopian, baptizes him, and from then on, he was changed instantly. In today's society, i have talked with street preachers who have witnessed to the lost, and have seen that exact turnaround... i even witnessed the gospel to a homeless man, and literally watched him change from night to day... it took Saul only three days to make a complete 180, and become Paul. Acts 9:18 says "And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized"... the immediate turnaround is possible and does happen

the utter truth in all of this, Warhammer, is that without repentance, there is no forgiveness:

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[SentinelMind]

exactly, Quasi... in fact, the Bible never teaches OSAS. it teaches the exact opposite, actually.

Do you mind if I ask if you are Catholic? I know they teach Lordship Salvation. It is not true to say the Bible never teaches OSAS...please see the Bible passages in my post above.

Hebrews 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.
8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

This passage is towards followers those who wanted to go back to Mosaic Law and do routine sacrifices. It doesn't say anything about going to hell, it says its disrespectful to God to willfully disobey God and then use animal sacrifices or offerings to restore. This is saying Jesus's one sacrifice makes it unnecessary to do any other sacrifice. There is no sacrifice greater than one Jesus Christ did on the cross. There were those tempted to preaching Mosaic laws instead of Christ sacrifice. Here Paul is setting the record straight. He says throughout Hebrews and other books that only faith...and faith alone is necessary for salvation.

See more here:
http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/falling-away-a-study-of-hebrews-6/

 

[SentinelMind]

this teaches directly against what SentinelMind says about sin... Peter tells us that these people are even worse off than those who have never come to know the Gospel of Jesus Christ

"No future sin can take you away from God's salvation"? that's an outright lie straight from the Devil!
sin is what separates us from the Father, and if we continue in sin after we become saved, we can and do separate ourselves from the Father:

God is not ok with sin, but you seem to be confusing punishment for sin in physical world...with destination towards hell. God will punish or address sinful activity based on circumstance (and if we repent or not)...but to suggest that future sin can remove the sacrifice of God made on your behalf in securing your salvation is pretty sacreligious statement. You're calling the Bible a liar in stating that Jesus's one sacrifice can cover all sins. The crucifixion either covered all sins or it didn't.

 

[Super Kal]

no i am not Catholic, nor am i protestant or Eastern Orthodox.

you just ignored not only the scripture, but also the historical evidence that proves OSAS was never taught within Christianity in the 1st and 2nd centuries...
that's cavalier dismissal, Sentinel

and i dont need to read the commentary to understand what the Bible says, Sentinel... the bible makes it very clear all throughout the scripture that salvation is not unconditional

 

[Warhammer]

the Holy Spirit does inhabit us, but He does not force us to do the Father's will, nor does He take control over us. In all essence, He still can be quenched, and resisted...

Naw man...

I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that if you are a believer, you're going to want to do grow. I sin everyday. But deep down, I seek to grow spiritually. Of course we're not forced against our will. It defeats the purpose of free will.

 

[Super Kal]

God is not ok with sin, but you seem to be confusing punishment for sin in physical world...with destination towards hell. God will punish or address sinful activity based on circumstance (and if we repent or not)...but to suggest that future sin can remove the sacrifice of God made on your behalf in securing your salvation is pretty sacreligious statement. You're calling the Bible a liar in stating that Jesus's one sacrifice can cover all sins. The crucifixion either covered all sins or it didn't.

our salvation is in obedience, Sentinel (John 14:15)... in abiding in Christ (John 15:1-6)... and when you abide in Christ, you are to be holy (1 Peter 1:15-16), and stop sinning (1 John 2:1).

and the bible never says once it covers future sins, Sentinel... if that be the case, Hebrews 10:26-27 wouldn't exist. stop giving yourself and others an excuse to sin. you can stop sinning. You call God a hypocrite because you make Him say one thing, then do the opposite. You are also leading others into deception by telling them it's okay to continue in sin and not repent of their sin, because they're already forgiven of future sin... Hebrews 10 never says that. you endanger them spiritually.
Jesus said be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect. He wouldnt tell you that if He didn't give you the tools and free will necessary to overcome sin in your life.

 

[Warhammer]

our salvation is in obedience, Sentinel (John 14:15)... in abiding in Christ (John 15:1-6)... and when you abide in Christ, you are to be holy (1 Peter 1:15-16), and stop sinning (1 John 2:1).

and the bible never says once it covers future sins, Sentinel... if that be the case, Hebrews 10:26-27 wouldn't exist. stop giving yourself and others an excuse to sin. you can stop sinning.
Jesus said be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect. He wouldnt tell you that if He didn't give you the tools and free will necessary to overcome sin in your life.

You must be Jesus himself, because there is no way we can stop. Adam and Eve f***ed that all up for us. We will continue to sin until the day we die.

 

[SentinelMind]

"No future sin can take you away from God's salvation"? that's an outright lie straight from the Devil!
sin is what separates us from the Father, and if we continue in sin after we become saved, we can and do separate ourselves from the Father:

I take it then you no longer sin, Super Kal? Can you list names of people who no longer sin, since you don't believe Jesus's death on the cross can cover future sins? What exactly do you think Jesus's death on the cross covers?

 

[Super Kal]

I sin everyday.

you dont have to. you can stop.
one of the greatest lies Satan has ever told the body of Christ is that you can't stop sinning...

Paul said I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me
Jesus Christ said with God all things are possible.

we can stop sinning, and thats exactly what Christ wants us to do

 

[SentinelMind]

Super Kal...so you don't believe Jesus's sacrifice covered sins after his death? You believe Jesus's death is routine...just like the animal sacrifices in front of the temple the Jews did in Old Testament? You think we should be sacrificing lambs now?

Let's quote the Bible

John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'"
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
John 4:42, "and they were saying to the woman, 'It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.'"
1 Tim. 4:10, "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
1 John 4:14, "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."

 

[SentinelMind]

you dont have to. you can stop.
one of the greatest lies Satan has ever told the body of Christ is that you can't stop sinning...

Paul said I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me
Jesus Christ said with God all things are possible.

we can stop sinning, and thats exactly what Christ wants us to do

Super Kal...do you believe you will never sin ever again. Please answer this question.

 

[Super Kal]

You must be Jesus himself, because there is no way we can stop. Adam and Eve f***ed that all up for us. We will continue to sin until the day we die.

this is what Jesus Himself said, Warhammer, not me. if you have a problem with that, then it's Jesus you have a problem with.
Adam and Eve didn't mess it all up for all of us. we go to the lake of fire because of our sins, not their sins. we are condemned for our own actions, not the actions of others. (Ezekiel 18:20)

I take it then you no longer sin, Super Kal? Can you list names of people who no longer sin, since you don't believe Jesus's death on the cross can cover future sins? What exactly do you think Jesus's death on the cross covers?

i do everything i can to stop sinning in my life, because that's what Christ calls us to do, Sentinel... yes, i do sin sometimes in my life, yet when any Christian sins, we are called to repent of such sin... but from the sound of things, you would rather continue to live in sin rather than come to repentance.

1 John 3:9
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

i dont practice sinning anymore, Sentinel... Christ forgave us from our sins past and present, but you will never find one single Bible verse that ever says Jesus saves us from future sins.

 

[Super Kal]

Super Kal...so you don't believe Jesus's sacrifice covered sins after his death? You believe Jesus's death is routine...just like the animal sacrifices in front of the temple the Jews did in Old Testament? You think we should be sacrificing lambs now?

that's a strawman, Sentinel... i never once stated that one should go back to the Mosaic Law to be saved.

 

[SentinelMind]

you dont have to. you can stop.
one of the greatest lies Satan has ever told the body of Christ is that you can't stop sinning...

Paul said I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me
Jesus Christ said with God all things are possible.

we can stop sinning, and thats exactly what Christ wants us to do

Paul was still a sinner even after he was saved. He says in it Roman 7!


13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

 

[Super Kal]

Romans 7 talks about Paul as an unconverted sinner.

http://youtu.be/iJEt5a4wi4I

i dont hold it against you with this doctrine, because i held to the same thing for such a long time... i held to it because it was all i knew.

the doctrine you teach comes from Calvinism rather than Biblical Christianity. Kerrigan Skelly does an amazing job refute the hermeneutics that Calvinism uses to misinterpret the scripture

 

[SentinelMind]

i do everything i can to stop sinning in my life, because that's what Christ calls us to do, Sentinel... yes, i do sin sometimes in my life, yet when any Christian sins, we are called to repent of such sin... but from the sound of things, you would rather continue to live in sin rather than come to repentance.

You're being inconsistent here....you said future sin can separate you from salvation...now you're saying you do sin sometimes. Are you unsure of your salvation? Do you go day to day not sure if you're saved? Isn't that frightening way to live? That's what Islam teaches...not what New Testament of Christ teaches.

I never said keep sinning...nowhere did I say that. I said that your future sins are covered by the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ. He got this...because He knows we will sin. I never encouraged sinning...I believe a genuine saved individual will gradually stop sinning with maturity. But it's not your works or perfection that saves you....its the faith. Mankind was doomed when Eve stopped trusting God and trusted the serpent. It's lack of trust and worship of idols that infuriates God....more than any other sin. He is quick to forgive us for our sins and transgressions...but their is no salvation for one who never trusted God.

Your whole "Work Salvation" ignores the entire concept of forgiveness...its like you don't believe God will forgive for past sins unless you become perfect in future, which you admit is impossible.

 

[Human Torch]

As far as Once Saved Always Saved goes,I think Jesus explained that in the parable of the sower.

Mark 4: 15-20

"Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown.”

Some people have a "said" faith,but not True saving Faith,so that they aren't rooted to Christ,and eventually will fall away.

 

[SentinelMind]

this is what Jesus Himself said, Warhammer, not me. if you have a problem with that, then it's Jesus you have a problem with.
Adam and Eve didn't mess it all up for all of us. we go to the lake of fire because of our sins, not their sins. we are condemned for our own actions, not the actions of others. (Ezekiel 18:20)



i do everything i can to stop sinning in my life, because that's what Christ calls us to do, Sentinel... yes, i do sin sometimes in my life, yet when any Christian sins, we are called to repent of such sin... but from the sound of things, you would rather continue to live in sin rather than come to repentance.

1 John 3:9
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

i dont practice sinning anymore, Sentinel... Christ forgave us from our sins past and present, but you will never find one single Bible verse that ever says Jesus saves us from future sins.

The bold is inconsistent....sin is sin is sin. Are you distinguishing accidental sins from willful sins? You think God tolerates some sins and not others?

Instead of saying "from the sound of things", where did I say to continue living in sin? Let's not put words in people's mouth...let's have an honest, respectful discussion here. I never said it was ok to sin...I said if you trust in Jesus, your sins are covered and you will still meet with him in Heaven. You have to acknowledge that you are a sinner, that God despises sin, and they have to be paid for. You have to trust that God the Father....sent God the Son..to earth to die and pay ultimate sacrifice...for all sins of the world. You have to believe God did it....not you. Its completely antithesis to New Convenant to build yourself up as some perfect being trying to get into Heaven on your own. That's not Biblical teaching.

 

[random_havoc]

Agree 100%

I'm agnostic, but it's totally hypocritical to complain about being bullied or discriminated against by Christians and then to turn around and do the same thing to them, especially if they're not pushing their views on anyone. A few years ago I was very intolerant towards religious people and I thought I was so smart quoting Dawkins or whoever. And then I met some Christian friends who were really nice and non-judgemental towards me, and I felt like an ass. I also remembered my grandmother whose favorite place was the Church pews on Sunday and how wonderful she was to me and how sad I was when she passed. And now I know that I can hold on to my own beliefs while still respecting those who are different as long as they respect me in turn. Anyone who comes in here trying to start trouble is an intolerant jerk, plain and simple.

Huge respect man. If only more people realized this, from every belief system.

 

[Warhammer]

this is what Jesus Himself said, Warhammer, not me. if you have a problem with that, then it's Jesus you have a problem with.
Adam and Eve didn't mess it all up for all of us. we go to the lake of fire because of our sins, not their sins. we are condemned for our own actions, not the actions of others. (Ezekiel 18:20)

Are we seriously having this conversation? God made Adam and Eve perfect. They sinned which means that we as the human race are born in sin automatically. Those who sin cannot enter Heaven. The point of Christ dying was so we have access to forgiveness and Heaven since he was the ultimate sacrifice for all of us on Earth until it is no more.

And how in the world did you misinterpret me blaming Adam and Eve for a sin I've committed...say...today? That is not what I said.

 

[Super Kal]

you just said you did, Sentinel... you said God saves us from future sins, so there's no need for repentance... you're the one that says a "Christian" can sin all they want and still be saved at the same time.

OSAS encourages sinning. it gives people a license to sin. it tells them exactly what Satan told Eve in the Garden... it's plain that you havent read a single verse that i have posted...

i'm gonna post this again, not for you, but for others who need to hear this.

Romans 11:22
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

salvation comes from repentance, baptism, and abstaining from sin. that is the biblical approach to salvation. what you teach is a calvinistic heresy, born from Gnosticism and Manichaeanism.

you say a true Christian will never sin... that's a true scotsman fallacy. true Christians do fall away. Demas if the perfect example. You accuse me of teaching sinless perfectionism, yet i never uttered such a phrase... what i preach, and what God wants from us, is moral perfection. you can't be morally perfect if you continue in sin.

the sad thing is that you equate repentance and the words of Jesus and His Apostles to stop sinning as work. you teach a false doctrine, and lead poeple to the lake of fire with gospel of antinomianism. I understand forgiveness and grace very well (more than you probably realize)... the Bible says i am saved by grace, through faith... yet that gace does not give you, or me, the right to continue in sin as if they've already been forgiven. i said this before, Hebrews 10 proves that, yet you ignore it.

I do believe that the death of Christ saved me, and all those who repent fo their sins, from their sins past and present... but it never once says our future sins are forgiven, and you have yet to show any scripture that would proclaim such a belief. The only inconsistency i see comes from you, who says it's okay to sin because sin doesnt separate you from God."

Isaiah taught differently. Ezekiel taught differently. Jesus taught differently, Hos Apostles taught differently, the ante-Nicene church taught differently. what you teach doesnt line up with scripture.
the bible says something about grace... something you havent realized yet

Romans 6:1-3
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Christ calls us to be separate from the world, and that includes the abstinence of sin in our lives. Jesus taught that, His Apostles taught that, the earliest church taught that.

the Bible makes it very clear. this is a warning from Paul to Timothy, and all like-minded Christians:

2 Timothy 2:12
if we deny Him, He also will deny us;

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[SentinelMind]

Ephesians 2:8-9

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.”


1 John 2:2
“[Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”


Roman 3!!!!

1. What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.


Let's repeat that again.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.


28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


EDIT BY ADMIN.: Chill with the Text Size, that is the equivalent of lambasting people and it doesn't go over very well, nor does it further the intelligence of your opinion.

 

[Warhammer]

i dont practice sinning anymore, Sentinel... Christ forgave us from our sins past and present, but you will never find one single Bible verse that ever says Jesus saves us from future sins.

May you tell me what that means?

 

[kaypain]

But then that falls exactly with Romans 10:9

If you truly believe Jesus died on cross on your sins then you wouldn't willingly go back to your ways. I think God knows we need to time to work on that, so I don't believe after I confess with my mouth Jesus is Lord and died for my sins that if the next I do a sin I"m not saved anymore. To become truly holy is to separate one's mind from the body, that is extremely difficult and I don't think God would punish us is we try but fail sometimes