The Johns/Morrison Super Project

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh, Justice League Elite was awesome, but it had the Flash and Green Arrow...

 

[Tron Bonne]

Yeah, I get what you guys are saying, I just don't believe it's necessarily some cosmic rule that the JL can and will only work with certain member line-ups. I think it can possibly work in different ways as long as the right writer(s) try to tackle it. Maybe I'm just too open-minded for my own good with the concept, but I just don't rule it out completely.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Oh, Justice League Elite was awesome, but it had the Flash and Green Arrow...

But Justice League Elite was still tied to JLA when it had all of the Big 7 as members.

 

[trustyside-kick]

What's being said is simply that the core of the JLA is larger than the core of the Avengers. So obviously there is more wiggle room for the Avengers to still be THE Avengers. I really am hoping that there will be a JLA story/book/team that I care about soon.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

(Read: "One with Aquaman on the roster.")

 

[hippie_hunter]

What's being said is simply that the core of the JLA is larger than the core of the Avengers. So obviously there is more wiggle room for the Avengers to still be THE Avengers. I really am hoping that there will be a JLA story/book/team that I care about soon.

I disagree. The core of the Avengers is larger than the JLA's IMO being the Founding Members (Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Hank Pym, and Wasp), the Kooky Quartet (Captain America, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver), and Vision.

What makes the Avengers more flexible than the Justice League is that DC has always promoted the Justice League as the Big 7. It started with the Big 7. When it was relaunched with Morrison it was with the Big 7. And when Meltzer relaunched it, he hyped up the Big 7 to an incredibly high pedestal.

Meanwhile with the Avengers, while they were created in response to the Justice League, right away you had roster changes. Ant-Man became Giant Man. The Hulk left. Captain America joined. Everyone but Captain America left and were replaced by the Kooky Quartet. Etc. Even from the beginning, Marvel simply didn't place Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, Hank Pym, and Wasp on a pedestal like DC did with Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, the Flash, Aquaman, and the Martian Manhunter.

 

[trustyside-kick]

(Read: "One with Aquaman on the roster.")

Would be nice is J'onn was there too.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

You count the Hulk as a core member? Really? One issue and like 5 pages as a member qualifies him as a core member?

Personally, I'd call the core of the team Thor, Iron Man, Cap, Hawkeye, the Scarlet Witch, the Vision, Pym, and the Wasp.

 

[hippie_hunter]

You count the Hulk as a core member? Really? One issue and like 5 pages as a member qualifies him as a core member?

Personally, I'd call the core of the team Thor, Iron Man, Cap, Hawkeye, the Scarlet Witch, the Vision, Pym, and the Wasp.

They have the Hulk as part of the statue commemorating the Founding Members. The Hulk was integral to the founding of the Avengers. He's a member in the Avengers movie. And most of all, he's a Founding Member, and IMO, Founding Members are automatically Core Members.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Yea I never considered Hulk a core Avenger. I felt they exposed him so much lately in the movies as one simply because he's the Hulk and it's a way to reach out to the non-comicbook reading fans.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Okay, even if you don't consider the Hulk to be a Core Member, the Core Members of the Avengers is still larger than the Justice League's Core Members.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

They have the Hulk as part of the statue commemorating the Founding Members. The Hulk was integral to the founding of the Avengers. He's a member in the Avengers movie. And most of all, he's a Founding Member, and IMO, Founding Members are automatically Core Members.

I get respecting him as a founder and all, but he's absolutely not a core member to me at all. He got pissed at Iron Man and left like a couple pages into #2. One issue and change as an actual member does not a core member make to me.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Speaking of core and founding members...so Black Canary isn't as of this current time a founding member anymore of the JLA right? Before she was but there's another example of someone who at one point was stated as a founding member but just doesn't have that feel as a core member. Granted when they granted her founding member status it wasn't when the team was literally first created, still the example shows.

And I do like Dinah fyi. But I don't view her as core even when she was in cannon as a founding member.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Wonder Woman re-replaced her, I believe. Or maybe they were on the team together now. I don't know.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Nope, Dinah's gone from the Founding Members' status.

 

[Kurosawa]

WW back as a founding member, Dinah back as coming in right before Ollie lost his fortune (I assume), Hippolyte out as JSA member, so the JSA has no WW which means they should have died in All-Star #38 I guess.

 

[Anubis]

I don't consider the Hulk an Avenger at all.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, there's a reason he's always with the Defenders in those Avengers/Defenders crossovers.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I can understand it. I'm not saying I'm a creative mind on the level of Johns or anything, but I draw in my spare time and I haven't really had the desire to draw my own stuff since I was in middle school. I just draw established superheroes now. Some people are just content to play with the established toys.

Also, I call bulls*** about not wanting to bring the "real" characters back. Whether that was his intention or not, the fact that DC's jumped onboard and placed Hal and Barry as the main representatives of those franchises in literally everything means that they're viewed (tacitly, perhaps, although I don't see it as all that subtle) as the "real" versions.

I don't give a s*** about the vast majority of people. You're a pre-Crisis nut, you know what that's like.

Anyway, I was just speaking directly about that quote from Johns. He brought Hal and Barry back, and that's fine. But don't give me that double-talk and pretend like you didn't know they'd be treated as the "real" versions of the characters, to the minimization of all others. "Oh, I didn't intend for" blah blah blah. Intentional or not, everyone knew what the end result would be.

I agree.

Exactly. When I think Flash and Green Lantern, I think Jay Garrick and Alan Scott.

Dude, you must be really old!

 

[Hush]

Nah he's only 41 Earle.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Ah OK then.

 

[Assassin]

Exactly. When I think Flash and Green Lantern, I think Jay Garrick and Alan Scott.

i call bull ****, even for you. actually, esp for you, Hal and Barry should be your "real" Flash and Green Lantern. I think you're making it up just so you wont admit you agree with Johns.

 

[hippie_hunter]

i call bull ****, even for you. actually, esp for you, Hal and Barry should be your "real" Flash and Green Lantern. I think you're making it up just so you wont admit you agree with Johns.

No, Kuro comes off as more of a Golden Age fan than Silver Age.

 

[The Batman]

I know for me Hal and Barry are the "real" GL and Flash. No one would give a damn about either franchise if it werent for them, really. GL and Flash would just be relic golden age heroes that only fanboys would know about

 

[Kurosawa]

i call bull ****, even for you. actually, esp for you, Hal and Barry should be your "real" Flash and Green Lantern. I think you're making it up just so you wont admit you agree with Johns.

Nope, I grew up with Barry and Hal but always liked Alan and Jay way better and got every reprint of them I could. I always consider the originals to be the real thing. Without them none of the later versions would exist. I also feel the same way about Hawkman and Atom, although at least Ray has totally different powers than Al. Why do you think I'm pissed over COIE and Zero Hour? The JSA and All-Star Squadron are my favorite characters and series of all time.

I also consider Kal-L to be the real Superman although I love Bronze Age Supes as written by Maggin.

And I've *****ed a TON about Johns because I think his plots suck, his characters have become one note jokes and I hate hate hate the gore he uses. That said, I'm glad he likes Hawkman, I just wish he wrote him with the depth that he once did. The guy's a scientist, an archeologist, a historian and a prince and he deserves a much better characterization that his current "HAWKMAN KILL HATH-SET!" personality he has in Brightest Day.