Justice League The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 43

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]536777[/split]

 

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]536549[/split]

 

[The Guard]

I honestly think it was a mistake to make Batman a lighter character in JL. Or at least they should have balanced it out with more angsty, cynical moments. He just lacked the epic-ness he had in BVS which made basically every Batfleck hater eat their words. His lines in BVS are so epic and quotable. "You were never a god. You were never even a man" "you're not brave. Men are brave" "I'm older now than my father ever was" "Tell me, do you bleed? You will" "They taught me the world only makes sense if you force it to"

First, quite a few of those lines are from the comics. They were already memorable.

Secondly, those are the lines of a creature of ego. They are more intense and assertive, so they tend to be more memorable. He has been humbled after what happened in BVS. He's more compassionate. His lines in JUSTICE LEAGUE reflect that

I think there are some pretty darn good lines in the movie, and the characterization is better from the standpoint of being faithful. The film does balance out his humor with quite a bit of "angsty" moments. There are discussions about the fate of the world, whether Superman should be brought back, etc. It's not all smiles and sunshine.

 

[Kane52630]

I honestly think it was a mistake to make Batman a lighter character in JL. Or at least they should have balanced it out with more angsty, cynical moments. He just lacked the epic-ness he had in BVS which made basically every Batfleck hater eat their words. His lines in BVS are so epic and quotable. "You were never a god. You were never even a man" "you're not brave. Men are brave" "I'm older now than my father ever was" "Tell me, do you bleed? You will" "They taught me the world only makes sense if you force it to"

So much good stuff. I can't think of a single truly epic Batman line in JL. All that comes to mind is his pep talk to Barry and maybe when he talks about the stranger that comes on the king tide.

Other than the bleed line, none of those lines even approach being quotable. And they're never quoted.

The only line that has been quotable....

 

[FunkMiller]

The only line that has been quotable....

For all the wrong reasons...

Martha and Moustache - the two biggest pop culture takeaways from these films.

 

[FunkMiller]

First, quite a few of those lines are from the comics. They were already memorable.

Secondly, those are the lines of a creature of ego. They are more intense and assertive, so they tend to be more memorable. He has been humbled after what happened in BVS. He's more compassionate. His lines in JUSTICE LEAGUE reflect that.

I think there are some pretty darn good lines in the movie, and the characterization is light years "better" from the standpoint of being faithful.

The teenage fanboy smile he gives when Superman appears is most definitely not faithful.

 

[C. Lee]

But why did everyone who loved WW not turn out for JL? Why didn’t the audience care about seeing her again? Why did they not care about seeing this Aquaman, Flash, Cyborg? Literally - why did nobody care about the Justice League?

I can't speak for all the others....I loved WW, but JL looked and sounded like a mess. I didn't like the look of the Flash and thought Cyborg looked laughable. Scenes from the movie all looked like an extension of the Snyderverse...which I didn't like. So I took a pass on it.

 

[MbJ]

Scenes from the movie all looked like an extension of the Snyderverse...which I didn't like. So I took a pass on it.

That's pretty much the long and short of it. People keep trying to perform logistical gymnastics to deny it, but end of the day, a lot of people who didn't like the last movie ended up staying away.

The DCEU as a brand, has been damaged.

 

[FunkMiller]

I can't speak for all the others....I loved WW, but JL looked and sounded like a mess. I didn't like the look of the Flash and thought Cyborg looked laughable. Scenes from the movie all looked like an extension of the Snyderverse...which I didn't like. So I took a pass on it.

You, and millions upon millions of others, it would seem, for probably much the same reason. Some will argue that people stayed away due to Snyder making bad movies previously, some will argue that they stayed away because JL was a badly-made, badly marketed mess. But the truth is, it’s both.

Regardless, I just don’t see a logical or decent reason anywhere for WB not to reboot - one that isn’t due to personal investment in the DCEU, anyway.

 

[The Guard]

I do think people are overcomplicating things when it comes to JUSTICE LEAGUEs' box office.

Many people who saw BVS were either bored by it or turned off by the character depictions. It became a meme on social media, and it became "cool" to hate the franchise. The media ran with that narrative, the ultimate reviews were again, lousy, and here we are. JUSTICE LEAGUE seems to have better legs than BVS, and seems to be getting better audience responses, but that just wasn't enough after BVS. WONDER WOMAN doesn't magically improve how people felt about Batman and Superman in BVS.

They have to find a way to improve the narrative surrounding this franchise.

 

[FunkMiller]

I do think people are overcomplicating things when it comes to JUSTICE LEAGUEs' box office.

Many people who saw BVS were either bored by it or turned off by the character depictions. It became a meme on social media, and it became "cool" to hate the franchise. The media ran with that narrative, and here we are. JUSTICE LEAGUE seems to have better legs than BVS, and seems to be getting better audience responses, but that just wasn't enough after BVS.

They have to find a way to improve the narrative surrounding this franchise.

...and there’s only one way the can do that at this point.

 

[Scarecrow_King]

They put themselves into a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" situation.

There's no indication that any movie in the DCEU would fare better than JL, apart maybe from WW2 and maybe the Batman movie (just because it's Batman).

But if they do reboot, what exactly do they say about it? It's a PR nightmare. They'd either have to admit to screwing it up the first time, or admit that they're cutting their losses and betting on something new--which probably wouldn't have much faith put in it because of how they screwed the pooch the first time.

Part of me feels bad, because I want to see good DC movies, but part of me laughs because they brought this on themselves.

 

[MbJ]

I'm not usually a fan of Campea, but he laid out the problems with a reboot. The DCEU has been seeing diminishing returns, so there's no guarantee right now launching a new universe is gonna do anything to combat the franchise's PR problem.

Part of the reason Batman Begins was so successful was the fact that it came out a full 8 years after the failure of Batman and Robin, meaning there was time for the stink to wear off. And even with Spider-Man Homecoming, Marvel at least had the option of introducing their rebooted Spider-Man in a hit crossover that was well regarded by critics and audiences.

Is there a way to pull off something similar with DC's characters? I'm not sure.

 

[The Guard]

I think they're in for even worse PR if they abandon the whole thing. They need to continue to do what has worked in films like WONDER WOMAN, find out what worked for audiences and critics in JUSTICE LEAGUE and move forward with more reasonable productions and approaches to their films. This is the first film to outright lose them money in the franchise, and if back to back critically lambasted films led them to double down on expanding their universe, somehow I don't see them abandoning it now. They just won't put all their eggs in one basket with the DCEU, nor should they.

 

[C. Lee]

That's pretty much the long and short of it. People keep trying to perform logistical gymnastics to deny it, but end of the day, a lot of people who didn't like the last movie ended up staying away.

The DCEU as a brand, has been damaged.

That's my opinion. I'm a huge superhero fan. I own almost every superhero movie and TV show. I can safely say I have spent more of my life watching superhero movies and shows more than pretty much anyone else here on the Hype. But I do not like the Snyderverse one bit. I went to the theater and saw MoS....and was highly disappointed. I bought the DVD, watched it again...and was again disappointed. I went to the theater and saw BvS....and was even more disappointed. I bought the DVD and watched it again....and was downright mad at what they had done. So when pics and trailers from JL came out....all I saw was BvS Part 2. I took a pass.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

They put themselves into a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" situation.

There's no indication that any movie in the DCEU would fare better than JL, apart maybe from WW2 and maybe the Batman movie (just because it's Batman).

But if they do reboot, what exactly do they say about it? It's a PR nightmare. They'd either have to admit to screwing it up the first time, or admit that they're cutting their losses and betting on something new--which probably wouldn't have much faith put in it because of how they screwed the pooch the first time.

Part of me feels bad, because I want to see good DC movies, but part of me laughs because they brought this on themselves.

It's a PR nightmare right now. People are more likely to give you another shot if you humbly state that you screwed up. Staying this course is gonna bury the DC brand for good.

I'm not usually a fan of Campea, but he laid out the problems with a reboot. The DCEU has been seeing diminishing returns, so there's no guarantee right now launching a new universe is gonna do anything to combat the franchise's PR problem.

Part of the reason Batman Begins was so successful was the fact that it came out a full 8 years after the failure of Batman and Robin, meaning there was time for the stink to wear off. And even with Spider-Man Homecoming, Marvel at least had the option of introducing their rebooted Spider-Man in a hit crossover that was well regarded by critics and audiences.

Is there a way to pull off something similar with DC's characters? I'm not sure.

Use Reeves The Batman to do it.

 

[FunkMiller]

I'm not usually a fan of Campea, but he laid out the problems with a reboot. The DCEU has been seeing diminishing returns, so there's no guarantee right now launching a new universe is gonna do anything to combat the franchise's PR problem.

Part of the reason Batman Begins was so successful was the fact that it came out a full 8 years after the failure of Batman and Robin, meaning there was time for the stink to wear off. And even with Spider-Man Homecoming, Marvel at least had the option of introducing their rebooted Spider-Man in a hit crossover that was well regarded by critics and audiences.

Is there a way to pull off something similar with DC's characters? I'm not sure.

Campea is 100% for a reboot though! His point is that the DCEU has been a massive turn off, and he thinks a full reboot is the right way to go, simply because nobody cares about this DCEU anymore, and movies based in it featuring the same actors won’t do well at the box office.

 

[FunkMiller]

They put themselves into a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" situation.

There's no indication that any movie in the DCEU would fare better than JL, apart maybe from WW2 and maybe the Batman movie (just because it's Batman).

But if they do reboot, what exactly do they say about it? It's a PR nightmare. They'd either have to admit to screwing it up the first time, or admit that they're cutting their losses and betting on something new--which probably wouldn't have much faith put in it because of how they screwed the pooch the first time.

“We have heard what the audience has had to say, and we are listening. We want to bring these DC characters to life in a universe that the public will love, and we’re going to make every effort with a new crop of creative talent to make sure that happens. There’s always been a fantastic tradition of reinvention and recreation at DC Comics, and the new cinematic ventures we are planning will live up to that spirit and fresh creative energy, starting with Matt Reeves’s Batman project.”

Simple.

 

[Flemm]

Use Reeves The Batman to do it.

Batman is the easy one, because he is a top tier character individually, like James Bond.

Of course, doing it right is not easy for the film-maker, but I think it's easy *conceptually*.

Just give audiences a compelling, fresh direction for the character, with a new cast, and they will show up. Maybe not to max potential initially, but the first installment should do well, and then build from there.

They have a second big opportunity with the Wonder Woman sequel. Audiences are going to be there for that, so it is another important chance to build the brand in a positive way.

Outside of that, it's a murkier picture.

One can debate the details, but I think they need to use certain basic principles of the "reboot" concept.

Which is not to abandon the properties in question, but to break with poorly received past incarnations and send the signal to audiences that this is something fresh and different.

 

[Scarecrow_King]

“We have heard what the audience has had to say, and we are listening. We want to bring these DC characters to life in a universe that the public will love, and we’re going to make every effort with a new crop of creative talent to make sure that happens. There’s always been a fantastic tradition of reinvention and recreation at DC Comics, and the new cinematic ventures we are planning will live up to that spirit and fresh creative energy, starting with Matt Reeves’s Batman project.”

Simple.

So admitting that they screwed up.

 

[Astro13Zombie]

“We have heard what the audience has had to say, and we are listening. We want to bring these DC characters to life in a universe that the public will love, and we’re going to make every effort with a new crop of creative talent to make sure that happens. There’s always been a fantastic tradition of reinvention and recreation at DC Comics, and the new cinematic ventures we are planning will live up to that spirit and fresh creative energy, starting with Matt Reeves’s Batman project.”

Simple.

That would be the best way to play it

 

[Flint Marko]

But how do you reboot this whole universe when Wonder Woman 2 and Aquaman are coming down the pipeline?

Let's be honest, the DCEU as a brand is damaged largely due to the simple fact that WB has screwed up their two biggest characters: Superman and Batman. Wonder Woman works all on her own (it's downright staggering how her movie seemingly did nothing to help JL) and they're banking on audience's wanting more of this Aquaman. To late to turn back now. I also think that a Flash movie has potential.

How do you move forward with those properties while giving Batman and Superman a fresh start? I really think it's as simple as keeping all the same actors (save for Affleck) and the world they've established, but just completely ignore what has come before.

 

[Scarecrow_King]

But how do you reboot this whole universe when Wonder Woman 2 and Aquaman are coming down the pipeline?

Let's be honest, the DCEU as a brand is damaged largely due to the simple fact that WB has screwed up their two biggest characters: Superman and Batman. Wonder Woman works all on her own (it's downright staggering how her movie seemingly did nothing to help JL) and they're banking on audience's wanting more of this Aquaman. To late to turn back now. I also think that a Flash movie has potential. How do you move forward with those properties while giving Batman and Superman a fresh start?

Kill one of them and resurrect him.

 

[FunkMiller]

So admitting that they screwed up.

Well, they did, so yes. Best way to gain a little trust back.

 

[Predator jp]

"the brand new DC cinematic universe will start with Matt Reeves’s Batman so enjoy the last breath of Snyderverse that is WW2, Aquaman, Shazaam!"