Justice League The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 50

[Iceman]

My parents definitely didn’t think that one through lol.

At least you turned out alright, well sort of.

 

[Vaibow]

I’ll never buy BvS as a dark film. It was sad sure, but not dark. The first movie I ever saw was The Crow though. I was 4. So there’s that.

So Superman not saying a word when first on screen, but smashing a warlord through a brick wall, which was used as the reason a whole village was burned alive....
Bruce, wanting to kill the first alien earth had every encountered - even though he saved them from the last of his own kind.
Batman, being seen for the first time in a sex den, branding criminals which gets them executed brutally in jail...
Luthor, serving up piss before killing a senator and the entire building, using a paraplegic as the patsy...
Martha being held hostage and possibly violated...
Superman and Batman against each other....
Superman dying...
The majority being shot at night, in rain...

Where was the hope in that?

About as cheerful as Schindlers list

 

[Vaibow]

At least you turned out alright, well sort of.

I think a lot of us who grew up around the 80's were exposed to Rambo, Freddy Kreuger, Robocop, Alien and other R rated films a lot earlier than we should have... kids these days get scared over Jurassic World.. i would like to see them sit through the exorcist on a sunday morning lol

 

[Iceman]

I think a lot of us who grew up around the 80's were exposed to Rambo, Freddy Kreuger, Robocop, Alien and other R rated films a lot earlier than we should have... kids these days get scared over Jurassic World.. i would like to see them sit through the exorcist on a sunday morning lol

Definitely true. It was like a rite of passage back then. I remember being ill from school once as a kid and I watched Predator, Total Recall and Terminator for the first time on the same day. Never looked back lol. I'm still a bit of a scaredy-cat when it comes to horror films though to be fair lol.

 

[Vaibow]

The toys were just as cool.. it didn't do me any harm either!!

 

[misslane38]

So Superman not saying a word when first on screen, but smashing a warlord through a brick wall, which was used as the reason a whole village was burned alive....

This isn't dark. That's like saying Grant Morrison's New 52 Superman was dark because he did stuff like this:

Bruce, wanting to kill the first alien earth had every encountered - even though he saved them from the last of his own kind.

Part of a story that ended with Bruce having a Road to Damascus moment that mirrored the acceptance and faith Superman ultimately earned from humanity itself. Bruce targeted Superman as a scapegoat for his own impotence and trauma. Yet, it was through Superman's grace that Bruce and humanity were able to put aside fear and prejudice. That is a story of hope.

Amazing Grace, How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost, but now am found
T'was blind but now I see

Batman, being seen for the first time in a sex den, branding criminals which gets them executed brutally in jail...

He saved those women, and it was Lex who was behind the prison assassinations.

Luthor, serving up piss before killing a senator and the entire building, using a paraplegic as the patsy...

He's the villain.

Martha being held hostage and possibly violated...

Violated? I don't know. Are you sure you're not the one with dark thoughts? Plenty of women (and men) are held hostage in superhero films. Pepper was held hostage in Iron Man 3, if I recall. Aunt May was attacked by Green Goblin in Raimi's Spider-Man. Those were not dark films.

Superman and Batman against each other....

Superman and Batman forgiving each other, recognizing good in each other, and working together.

Superman dying...
The majority being shot at night, in rain...

Where was the hope in that?

Neither death nor rain are inherently dark or light. Rain is a dichotomous symbol: it can imply both melancholy as well as renewal and rebirth. One of the greatest sources of hope for many around the world is the death of Jesus Christ. Sacrificial death is hopeful because it is proof that regardless of the sins of humanity, we are still worth fighting for. It means Superman didn't give up on Earth. In the face of relentless hate, he chose love. He chose to keep trying. It reminds me of what happened in this week's episode of NBC's The Good Place.

About as cheerful as Schindlers list

Schindler's List is one of the most hopeful films I have ever watched. It depicts a selfish man who chose saving lives over the money he once craved. In the midst of great evil, he was a source of hope and proof that good can exist in the most unlikely people in most challenging of circumstances. Schindler did not save millions of Jewish people from Nazi genocide, but he did save some. And just trying is enough. It matters.

Light that shines during the darkest night shines the brightest.

 

[Vaibow]

This isn't dark. That's like saying Grant Morrison's New 52 Superman was dark because he did stuff like this:

Part of a story that ended with Bruce having a Road to Damascus moment that mirrored the acceptance and faith Superman ultimately earned from humanity itself. Bruce targeted Superman as a scapegoat for his own impotence and trauma. Yet, it was through Superman's grace that Bruce and humanity were able to put aside fear and prejudice. That is a story of hope.

Amazing Grace, How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost, but now am found
T'was blind but now I see



He saved those women, and it was Lex who was behind the prison assassinations.



He's the villain.



Violated? I don't know. Are you sure you're not the one with dark thoughts? Plenty of women (and men) are held hostage in superhero films. Pepper was held hostage in Iron Man 3, if I recall. Aunt May was attacked by Green Goblin in Raimi's Spider-Man. Those were not dark films.



Superman and Batman forgiving each other, recognizing good in each other, and working together.



Neither death nor rain are inherently dark or light. Rain is a dichotomous symbol: it can imply both melancholy as well as renewal and rebirth. One of the greatest sources of hope for many around the world is the death of Jesus Christ. Sacrificial death is hopeful because it is proof that regardless of the sins of humanity, we are still worth fighting for. It means Superman didn't give up on Earth. In the face of relentless hate, he chose love. He chose to keep trying. It reminds me of what happened in this week's episode of NBC's The Good Place.

Schindler's List is one of the most hopeful films I have ever watched. It depicts a selfish man who chose saving lives over the money he once craved. In the midst of great evil, he was a source of hope and proof that good can exist in the most unlikely people in most challenging of circumstances. Schindler did not save millions of Jewish people from Nazi genocide, but he did save some. And just trying is enough. It matters.

Light that shines during the darkest night shines the brightest.

Oh Misslane38.. thanks, but.. you really shouldn't have.

With the greatest of respect, you're cherry picking what you want to see. I would do examples but i feel you would counter back with even more blinkered examples.

Just out of interests, i found Ant Man to be a very entertaining, bright and light hearted film - no doubt you could tell me i'm wrong and that day scenes - that daylight are ultraviolet rays that increase the risk of cancer, the fact Pym was in act an evil genius manipulating people for his own game, Cassie shouldn't be happy her dad is safe from jail, as it's morally wrong as rules is rules.

I'm just kidding - you get the idea... whilst i appreciate your intent, people, the general audience just don't think like that - hence reviews like:

Shouldn’t all this geeky property colliding still at least be entertaining? Shouldn’t it play to the cheap seats instead of wallowing in the murk? AV Club
most people will leave feeling drained and depressed, wondering how a studio can get away with withholding so much for the sake of future profits before audiences start to rebel. Vulture.
That this very long, very brooding, often exhilarating and sometimes scattered epic succeeds as often it does therefore has to be seen as an achievement.Variety.
“Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice” begins and ends with a funeral, which is fitting for a movie that plays like one long dirge. Washington Post
While this movie's violence doesn’t go beyond what we see in most Marvel flicks, the atmosphere here is so darkly brooding that it feels much harsher. PA

 

[_Superman_]

I miss New 52 Superman.

 

[misslane38]

Oh Misslane38.. thanks, but.. you really shouldn't have.

Oh, Vaibow, you really shouldn't think I give a damn about what you think I should or shouldn't do.

With the greatest of respect, you're cherry picking what you want to see. I would do examples but i feel you would counter back with even more blinkered examples.

Sure. You can posture all you want, but all I'm getting from you here is that you got nothing.

Just out of interests, i found Ant Man to be a very entertaining, bright and light hearted film - no doubt you could tell me i'm wrong and that day scenes - that daylight are ultraviolet rays that increase the risk of cancer, the fact Pym was in act an evil genius manipulating people for his own game, Cassie shouldn't be happy her dad is safe from jail, as it's morally wrong as rules is rules.

I wouldn't say that to you, because we weren't talking about whether something was entertaining. We were talking about something being light or dark. I also wouldn't say this to you because it's hyperbolic nonsense you've created as a strawman that you excuse with a "just kidding" qualifier.

I'm just kidding - you get the idea... whilst i appreciate your intent, people, the general audience just don't think like that - hence reviews like:

This isn't about reviews or what the general viewpoint is. This is about you and me, two people with our own minds and our own subjective experience of the films, discussing what we think and what we feel.

 

[Vaibow]

Oh, Vaibow, you really shouldn't think I give a damn about what you think I should or shouldn't do.



Sure. You can posture all you want, but all I'm getting from you here is that you got nothing.



I wouldn't say that to you, because we weren't talking about whether something was entertaining. We were talking about something being light or dark. I also wouldn't say this to you because it's hyperbolic nonsense you've created as a strawman that you excuse with a "just kidding" qualifier.



This isn't about reviews or what the general viewpoint is. This is about you and me, two people with our own minds and our own subjective experience of the films, discussing what we think and what we feel.

ok, cool.. was an interesting exchange - enjoy the rest of weekend.

 

[idiot09]

I think a lot of people just call a serious movie, "dark". I really find it funny when people call MOS or TDKT dark movies, lol they are not. You can make a case for BvS, but it still ends on a very hopeful note, and it could have been waaaay darker. Its funny, its actually cherrypicking at its finest. Titan's Nightwing has been waaaaaay more violent and sadistic than BvS's Batman, and yet *crickets*.

Anyway, @misslane38 you always mention "The Good Place". Is it a show worth checking out? What genre would you say it is? Comedy?

 

[Vaibow]

I think a lot of people just call a serious movie, "dark". I really find it funny when people call MOS or TDKT dark movies, lol they are not. You can make a case for BvS, but it still ends on a very hopeful note, and it could have been waaaay darker. Its funny, its actually cherrypicking at its finest. Titan's Nightwing has been waaaaaay more violent and sadistic than BvS's Batman, and yet *crickets*.

Anyway, @misslane38 you always mention "The Good Place". Is it a show worth checking out? What genre would you say it is? Comedy?

Which is what i was doing... i was backing up my claim that i personally felt it was dark, considering the characters involved. I used evidence to suggest i wasn't alone, citing other opinions similar to mine, but that was rebuffed, stating that only my opinion counted in that specific discussion, but ironically i was being schooled with examples of her own that my opinion was wrong... so.... there we go, forums hey, gotta love them.

 

[Da-Scribe]

It was still a movie about guys in tights punching each other. Did it deal with some weightier material? Sure, though that assault stuff didn’t happen and I dunno where you got that from. When I think of truly dark movies I’d think of something like Mandy. BvS was nothing close to that. None of these major CBMs have been.

 

[misslane38]

I think a lot of people just call a serious movie, "dark". I really find it funny when people call MOS or TDKT dark movies, lol they are not. You can make a case for BvS, but it still ends on a very hopeful note, and it could have been waaaay darker. Its funny, its actually cherrypicking at its finest. Titan's Nightwing has been waaaaaay more violent and sadistic than BvS's Batman, and yet *crickets*.

The only films I consider "dark" are ones that are ultimately cynical or nihilistic.

Anyway, @misslane38 you always mention "The Good Place". Is it a show worth checking out? What genre would you say it is? Comedy?

It's a half hour comedy made by Mike Schur who is responsible for shows like the US version of The Office, Parks and Recreation, and Brooklyn Nine-Nine. Ted Danson and Kristen Bell are the leads, but the entire cast is fantastic. My favorites are D'Arcy Carden as Janet and William Jackson Harper as Chidi. Its themes are existential and ethical; it's funny and full of amazing plot twists. At its heart, it's a show about what it means to be good and how to be good. I love it.

 

[misslane38]

Which is what i was doing... i was backing up my claim that i personally felt it was dark, considering the characters involved. I used evidence to suggest i wasn't alone, citing other opinions similar to mine, but that was rebuffed, stating that only my opinion counted in that specific discussion, but ironically i was being schooled with examples of her own that my opinion was wrong... so.... there we go, forums hey, gotta love them.

There's nothing ironic or contradictory about asking you to support your own claims with evidence just as I did rather than rely on a fallacious appeal to an ad populum defense. In other words, if you want to argue that Batman and Superman fighting is dark, rain is dark, Martha's kidnapping is dark, or Superman dying is dark, then you need to make your own case for why you feel that way. Just saying that other people agree with you isn't an argument.

 

[Vaibow]

There's nothing ironic or contradictory about asking you to support your own claims with evidence just as I did rather than rely on a fallacious appeal to an ad populum defense.

That's the thing... i made a statement, you came in from no where and gave examples of how i was wrong in my opinion - referencing how rain is actually a good thing blah blah. So then i gave examples of how i wasn't alone in my views and tried to keep it light hearted as i have seen your posts for a while and know that you are serious in your work - yet i was told i could only use my own views as evidence... i feel you have trouble filtering your understanding and expectations of others, forum social cues as it were - if someone has a different opinion, sure... share yours but don't belittle, derail a view point.

 

[heatvision38]

The only films I consider "dark" are ones that are ultimately cynical or nihilistic.



It's a half hour comedy made by Mike Schur who is responsible for shows like the US version of The Office, Parks and Recreation, and Brooklyn Nine-Nine. Ted Danson and Kristen Bell are the leads, but the entire cast is fantastic. My favorites are D'Arcy Carden as Janet and William Jackson Harper as Chidi. Its themes are existential and ethical; it's funny and full of amazing plot twists. At its heart, it's a show about what it means to be good and how to be good. I love it.

It's a good show. I've been watching myself.

 

[misslane38]

That's the thing... i made a statement, you came in from no where and gave examples of how i was wrong in my opinion - referencing how rain is actually a good thing blah blah. So then i gave examples of how i wasn't alone in my views and tried to keep it light hearted as i have seen your posts for a while and know that you are serious in your work - yet i was told i could only use my own views as evidence... i feel you have trouble filtering your understanding and expectations of others, forum social cues as it were - if someone has a different opinion, sure... share yours but don't belittle, derail a view point.

LOL! Did you read your initial reply to me?!? Let's see, in your incredibly dismissive and patronizing post you said, "you're cherry picking what you want to see" and as a result you wouldn't even bother trying to share you own counterexamples because I would only respond "with even more blinkered examples." The only counterargument you shared was a list of quotes from reviews to suggest that what the "general audience" perceives is the only thing that matters when it comes to evaluating whether a film, or elements in a film, are fundamentally light or dark. And now, you are accusing me of having trouble understanding social cues as some sort of ad hominem defense. I didn't belittle your opinion. I asked you to support your opinion with something other than appealing to the majority, which is a logical fallacy.

 

[Vaibow]

LOL! Did you read your initial reply to me?!? Let's see, in your incredibly dismissive and patronizing post you said, "you're cherry picking what you want to see" and as a result you wouldn't even bother trying to share you own counterexamples because I would only respond "with even more blinkered examples." The only counterargument you shared was a list of quotes from reviews to suggest that what the "general audience" perceives is the only thing that matters when it comes to evaluating whether a film, or elements in a film, are fundamentally light or dark. And now, you are accusing me of having trouble understanding social cues as some sort of ad hominem defense. I didn't belittle your opinion. I asked you to support your opinion with something other than appealing to the majority, which is a logical fallacy.

Ok, respectfully, i have nothing more to say on the matter - i don't think i'll be engaging with you in the future, you're just not my cup of tea - i'd appreciate if you did the same - enjoy your week!

 

[misslane38]

Here's an example of how to evaluate and respond to evidence with analysis. Let's look at the following quote from The Washington Post's review of BvS:

“Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice” begins and ends with a funeral, which is fitting for a movie that plays like one long dirge. Washington Post

The reviewer, in my opinion, misrepresents and overgeneralizes the symbolism of the two funerals. To this reviewer, funerals can only be construed as something dark, brooding, edgy, etc. But that's not the case in BvS. Chris Terrio, co-writer of BvS, has said that the film was designed as a chiasmus: a rhetorical device in which two or more clauses are balanced against each other by the reversal of their structures in order to produce an artistic effect.

The key is the idea of reversal for artistic effect. Thus, the funeral that opens BvS is meant to be opposed in meaning to the funeral at the conclusion of the film. And, thanks to Terrio's narration dialogue for Bruce, we understand the dual meanings of these funerals. The first is about Bruce's fall and deception: the beautiful lie. The second is about Bruce's redemption and hope: men are still good.

So, then, what's the point? The point is: critics are not gods. We can analyze and critique their interpretations, and in this case, I believe encapsulating one's analysis of BvS as defined by darkness by relying on its funeral symbolism is incomplete without really looking at what those two funerals represent.

 

[Vaibow]

Here's an example of how to evaluate and respond to evidence with analysis. Let's look at the following quote from The Washington Post's review of BvS:



The reviewer, in my opinion, misrepresents and overgeneralizes the symbolism of the two funerals. To this reviewer, funerals can only be construed as something dark, brooding, edgy, etc. But that's not the case in BvS. Chris Terrio, co-writer of BvS, has said that the film was designed as a chiasmus: a rhetorical device in which two or more clauses are balanced against each other by the reversal of their structures in order to produce an artistic effect.

The key is the idea of reversal for artistic effect. Thus, the funeral that opens BvS is meant to be opposed in meaning to the funeral at the conclusion of the film. And, thanks to Terrio's narration dialogue for Bruce, we understand the dual meanings of these funerals. The first is about Bruce's fall and deception: the beautiful lie. The second is about Bruce's redemption and hope: men are still good.

So, then, what's the point? The point is: critics are not gods. We can analyze and critique their interpretations, and in this case, I believe encapsulating one's analysis of BvS as defined by darkness by relying on its funeral symbolism is incomplete without really looking at what those two funerals represent.

Yup, a reviewer is wrong. As i said, have a nice week - let's stop this exchange.

 

[misslane38]

Yup, a reviewer is wrong. As i said, have a nice week - let's stop this exchange.

Fine with me.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

It was still a movie about guys in tights punching each other. Did it deal with some weightier material? Sure, though that assault stuff didn’t happen and I dunno where you got that from. When I think of truly dark movies I’d think of something like Mandy. BvS was nothing close to that. None of these major CBMs have been.

While I personally wouldn't call a film like BvS dark, I don't think a CBM is somehow impervious to being labeled as such simply by nature of what some of its most intrinsic elements (in this case, costumes and fisticuffs) allow for. That would be almost akin to saying a DC porn parody isn't really a skin flick just because it's got superheroes in it.

Anyway, to Vaibow's point, which, again, I don't wholly agree with (the "violated" stuff, for example, is utter nonsense), I think some people are a little too fixated on the utmost example of what dark can mean. And to be fair, there's some legitimate variance to be found there. An online definition of the word, for instance, reads as follows: relating to grim or depressing circumstances // dark humor. In that sense, one could argue that BvS certainly has its dark moments. However, and it's here where Vaibow loses me, the film isn't entirely devoid of joy and hopefulness. Case in point, Snyder's Superman, regardless of how he's perceived by fans and critics alike, rarely if ever wavers from trying to do the right thing even in the face of ever-mounting criticism from all sides. Details like this are significant because when you look at the film for all that it is, it's only then that you realize things aren't as dour as they appear to be.

Of course, the way people use "dark" nowadays isn't anything new. Even Batman himself is often referred to as a "dark knight", the term coined as far back as '39 with his comic book inception. And why? Because, despite his altruism or willingness to do good, he's nevertheless a violent and damaged hero, often walking a fine line between right and wrong. Interestingly enough, though, not everyone cares for that particular moniker. Most recently, in fact, I read a piece from an author who scoffed at the idea of perceiving Bats as a "dark" knight, something he erroneously credited Nolan for. A prime example of someone with an arguably narrow vision of what it means to be dark, the author couldn't make sense of the term as applied to anyone who hadn't committed the most egregious of acts (I believe he alluded to axe murderers and the like). So, it would seem that this kind of ambiguity over how and to what we apply the word in question is rather ubiquitous. Complicating matters further is the manner in which language has been known to change as popular usage drifts from guidelines.

 

[Da-Scribe]

Like I said, my first movie was The Crow. My view is admittedly skewed haha.

 

[flickchick85]

Snyder's Superman, regardless of how he's perceived by fans and critics alike, rarely if ever wavers from trying to do the right thing even in the face of ever-mounting criticism from all sides. Details like this are significant because when you look at the film for all that it is, it's only then that you realize things aren't as dour as they appear to be.

And that's the crux of why he wasn't received well, imo. He's Superman - people don't want him to appear dour to begin with. If they have to look beneath the surface to find the qualities they're looking for in Superman, you're not gonna have a successful Superman movie, imo.