The Kennedy Thread

[Demon Within]

Bullets pierce through you. Punches don't. That is why the body reacts differently to each.

Stop with your conspiracy theories. You are making claims with no evidence to back it up.

Watch the video. The driver turns around with a silver gun in his hand an shoots JFK in the temple. Thats pretty good evidence Oswald didnt shoot him.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Your a moron.

You're

Watch the video. The driver turns around with a silver gun in his hand an shoots JFK in the temple. Thats pretty good evidence Oswald didnt shoot him.

First of all, what video?

Second, are you seriously trying to tell me that the man DRIVING Kennedy's car shot him? That is absolute BS. Everyone would know it was him since it is on video. Wouldn't Gov. Connelly, his wife, Jackie, and the guy next to the driver have noticed the man driving the car and was inches away pull out a gun, shoot him, and continue driving? Don't even think saying "They were in on it" is a legitimate reason.

 

[DorkyFresh]

My example of punching is about momentum not force. When you get punched the momentum pushes you away from the fist, not to it like you are suggesting for a bullet.

you cannot compare a punch to a gunshot. a bullet is much smaller and faster than a fist can be. a fist can only do damage by impact, but a bullet's purpose is to penetrate. the fact that a bullet is at least 10 times smaller than a fist makes the way they work incredibly different especially in regards to momentum and impact. they're extremely different...that's why you really can't compare them.

bad comparison. i agree that when a person gets punched they move in the direction of the punch, but punches don't go through a person and make an explosion on the other side like bullets do.

His head does not jolt forward first in your video hes starting to slump forward when the bullet from the front flings his head back.

lol...denial is the first step to acceptance.

Also the front of his face isnt the one that was blown up it was the back of his head check the autopsy photos. If the bullet hit him in the back of the head first why would the bullet have blown up the back of his head an not the front where it should have?

i never said it blew up his FACE (please read more carefully next time), i said the front of his head exploded. if anyone needs to check the autopsy photos it's you. here...(warning: real photos of JFK's autopsy!)

http://www.celebritymorgue.com/jfk/kennedy-side.jpg
http://www.celebritymorgue.com/jfk/kennedy-back.jpg

...as you can see the first link shows the top of his head missing, but most of the damage is to the front part of the top of his head. even part of his forehead is damaged. the second link shows most of the back of his head intact. note the bald spot on his head which is on the top of a person's head in the back. these real autopsy photos contradict your assumption that the explosion occurred on the BACK of his head.

besides...you saying that he was shot from the FRONT with the BACK of his head exploding contradicts the movement of his head. if he were shot from the front with the BACK of his head exploding, we would've seen his head fling FORWARD because of the explosion happening on the BACK of his head. such is not the case, we see the FRONT of his head explode and his head fling backwards as a result of the explosion. go back and watch the film, it's very clear that the explosion happened in FRONT of him...not BEHIND him.

The bullet comes from in front thats why. It hits him just above the ear on the rights side. The angle in which the bullet entered is the wrong angle for Oswald to have shot but a perfect angle for someone from the knoll laying down with the rifle point slight upward to have done.

look at those autopsy photos and tell me that you really believe the bullet entered from the front, right above his ear...


...before i continue this discussion with you, i'd like to know if you're even open to the possibility that Oswald acted on his own. if you're not open to that possibility, discussion over.

 

[DorkyFresh]

Plus, as I mentioned, and you didn't address, the House Committee on Assassinations had access to thousands of classified scientific reports, testimonies, and interviews that still to this day have not been classified

that IS strange that all those documents haven't been declassified, but you don't need every piece of the puzzle in order to figure it out. there are detectives out there who can solve a crime with only one piece of evidence.

And it is naive to say that computer modeling alone proves that there was one assassin. Graphic modeling is an art, and like all art and media it is created and manipulated by people in any way they see fit. I'm simply saying that because ABC News says so doesnt mean it is so. They did not address many other important issues concerning November 23rd 1963, and stuck only to the material they could use to prove their case. Please, don't be so naive, and investigate some more diverse and credible sources.

graphic modeling is an art, but 3d simulation is a science. once again, the problem with your train of thought is that you don't think 3d simulations be accurate when the exact is true. 3d simulations are VERY accurate. i don't THINK simulations are accurate, i KNOW they are. i don't mean to toot my own horn but i work as a 3d person doing instructional materials and simulations for the Navy so you're not just talking to a person who blindfully saw the 3d simulation and instantly thought "omg! it's troo!!!" i'm not saying the simulation is the end all, be all of evidence...but it's shows a very convincing simulation of one possible way the events on that day happened.

so...please don't be so naive and think that the special on ABC is the only thing on JFK i've seen. it just happens to be the most convincing, to me, out of all the other theories i've heard about.

Watch the video. The driver turns around with a silver gun in his hand an shoots JFK in the temple. Thats pretty good evidence Oswald didnt shoot him.

please tell me you're joking...

 

[Demon Within]

you cannot compare a punch to a gunshot. a bullet is much smaller and faster than a fist can be. a fist can only do damage by impact, but a bullet's purpose is to penetrate. the fact that a bullet is at least 10 times smaller than a fist makes the way they work incredibly different especially in regards to momentum and impact. they're extremely different...that's why you really can't compare them.

bad comparison. i agree that when a person gets punched they move in the direction of the punch, but punches don't go through a person and make an explosion on the other side like bullets do.


lol...denial is the first step to acceptance.


i never said it blew up his FACE (please read more carefully next time), i said the front of his head exploded. if anyone needs to check the autopsy photos it's you. here...(warning: real photos of JFK's autopsy!)

http://www.celebritymorgue.com/jfk/kennedy-side.jpg
http://www.celebritymorgue.com/jfk/kennedy-back.jpg

...as you can see the first link shows the top of his head missing, but most of the damage is to the front part of the top of his head. even part of his forehead is damaged. the second link shows most of the back of his head intact. note the bald spot on his head which is on the top of a person's head in the back. these real autopsy photos contradict your assumption that the explosion occurred on the BACK of his head.

besides...you saying that he was shot from the FRONT with the BACK of his head exploding contradicts the movement of his head. if he were shot from the front with the BACK of his head exploding, we would've seen his head fling FORWARD because of the explosion happening on the BACK of his head. such is not the case, we see the FRONT of his head explode and his head fling backwards as a result of the explosion. go back and watch the film, it's very clear that the explosion happened in FRONT of him...not BEHIND him.


look at those autopsy photos and tell me that you really believe the bullet entered from the front, right above his ear...


...before i continue this discussion with you, i'd like to know if you're even open to the possibility that Oswald acted on his own. if you're not open to that possibility, discussion over.

Its possible but not likely. Theres far to many reasons of why he didnt.

1) How did he become such a good shot when on April 10, 1963 he failed to assassinate Major General Walker at less then a 100ft while he was sitting at a desk. Luck?

2) Why would Oswald deny having killed the President? Why would he claim he was a patsy? Fishy.

3) Not only was he one of the best (or luckiest) shooters in the WORLD he was also one of the fastest shooting 3 times (twice on target) in under 8 seconds. Two of the shots coming back to back in under 3 seconds. Amazing stuff.

4) A bullet goes through someone yes but it also carries that persons momentum with it because it "drags" through the area making Oswalds headshot about as impossible as it gets.

 

[Dark Vigilante]

Stop with your conspiracy theories. You are making claims with no evidence to back it up.

Eisenhower had been toppling leftist governments for years all throughout his presidency. Iran, Congo, and Guatamala to name a few.

Fact.

There were people in the top levels of our government whom had dedicated their lives to the anhiliation of communism all over the world.

Fact.

There were many people in the top levels of our government that would gladly force some sort of war with the Soviet Union.

Fact.

Kennedy was misled by the CIA in 1961 about the potential sucess of the Bay of Pigs Invasion.

Fact.

Kennedy refused to directly use the U.S. military and held the CIA responsible for the invasion's failure.

Fact.

Kennedy fired Allen Dulles, and many others that had been at the top of the CIA for years.

Fact.

The Mafia had multi-million dollar business interests in Cuba and lost all of it when Castro took power, and lost it all for good when the Bay of Pigs Invasion failed. They held Kennedy responsible.

Fact.

John F. and Robert Kennedy ruthlessly attack the Mafia and organized crime in the countries, one of the first administrations to seriously do so.

Fact.

The CIA had used the Mafia as an asset in it's dealings with Cuba and their attempts to covertly wage war with them.

Fact.

During the Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy decides to "quarantine" Cuba instead of listening to the advice of some of his top military advisors to attack and invade the country, much to their dismay.

Fact.

Kennedy compromises with Khrushchev to end the Cuban Missile Crisis. Concessions include a promise to never again interfer with Castro's Cuba and to remove American nuclear missiles from Turkey. Many hardliners fear Kennedy is a closet communist.

Fact.

Kennedy, realizing that Vietnam was lost and that further American involvement in the struggle to protect the country from communist unification would only result in a tragic quagmire, orders 1000 U.S. military advisors home by Christmas, 1963, and all forces withdrawn by Christmas of 1965. Kennedy publically remains optimistic, fearing that if he was blamed for losing Vietnam he would not win in 1964. Hardline Cold Warriors are outraged.

Fact. (Don't believe me? http://www.history-matters.com/vietnam1963.htm. The actual Defense Department orders and transcript of the 8th SECDEF Conference on Vietnam is on the left.)

There was a great deal of powerful people in the country, in the government specifically, in the Mafia, and in anti-Castro groups that had every reason and even the means to assassinate the President.

Fact.

Lee Harvey Oswald defended his innocence until he died, and called himself a "patsy".

Fact.

Jack Ruby claimed he was part of a massive conspiracy that would never be revealed to the public because the people responsible were in incrediblly high positions.

Fact.

One of the board members of the Warren Commission was Allen Dulles, the head of CIA that Kennedy fired in '61 and held responsible for the failure of the Bay of Pigs invasion.

Fact.

The deliberations of the Commission were done privately, and the documents used to come to their conclusions were sealed by President Johnson until the year 2032.

Fact.

The House Committee on Assassinations determined in 1979 that there was a conspiracy to assassinate the President, that there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll, and that they could not rule out the very real possibility that rouge elements in our government were responsible for the President's murder.

Fact.

The deliberations of the Committee, like the Warren Commission, were done privately, and the evidence used was also kept classifed.

Fact.

The U.S. government has still not released thousands of files pretaining to the assassination.

Fact.

Johnson reverses Kennedy's orders and exponentially escalates the Vietnam War shortly after JFK's assassination, claiming he will not see Vietnam go the way China did.

Fact.

The Gulf of Tonkin incident itself is highly questionable and has never been completely proven to have even taken place.

Fact.

Lee Harvey Oswald was deranged and acted alone in assassinating President John F. Kennedy.

No way.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

All of those are random and unrelated facts for the most part. You are construing them into seemingly cohesive evidence to support some left field conspiracy theory. None of that is clear, solid evidence to support a theory that Oswald did not do it. Some of that is even laughable (like Oswald and Ruby's testimony about their involvement).

Its possible but not likely. Theres far to many reasons of why he didnt.

1) How did he become such a good shot when on April 10, 1963 he failed to assassinate Major General Walker at less then a 100ft while he was sitting at a desk. Luck?

He was likely very nervous about his emotions caused him to miss. He was probably more prepared to shoot Kennedy.

2) Why would Oswald deny having killed the President? Why would he claim he was a patsy? Fishy.

Oh yeah. He was clearly innocent because he denied it.

3) Not only was he one of the best (or luckiest) shooters in the WORLD he was also one of the fastest shooting 3 times (twice on target) in under 8 seconds. Two of the shots coming back to back in under 3 seconds. Amazing stuff.

He had Marine Corp. training so he knew how use a rifle quickly.

4) A bullet goes through someone yes but it also carries that persons momentum with it because it "drags" through the area making Oswalds headshot about as impossible as it gets.

No it doesn't. The bullet goes through and when it goes out, it "explodes" and forces Kennedy's head back.

 

[Demon Within]

please tell me you're joking...

Watch the video. I dare you. http://youtube.com/watch?v=xPRpfsLKink

Theres the link. So you dont have to watch the whole video go to 29 seconds into it. Its the first appearance of blood mist an youll also notice the driver turned completely around with an outstretched arm an a silver object in his hand. Once the headshot is registered he quickly turns around an steps on the pedal. Also notice no one was watching him. Another thing to consider is the doctors who did the autopsy indicated JFKs headshot for more accurate of a hand gun wound the rifle.

One more thing. Multiple people including people inside of the cars following JFKs said they smelled gun powder.

 

[Dark Vigilante]

that IS strange that all those documents haven't been declassified, but you don't need every piece of the puzzle in order to figure it out. there are detectives out there who can solve a crime with only one piece of evidence.

Yes, but your straying from the topic. The U.S. government is a far more reliable source of information then ABC News. I'm not discrediting the validity of all television documentaries, I'm saying that on this matter, the government had more information available to them, more time to investigate, and more evidence to comb over, and they had a reason to lie or be misleading, yet they didn't. You can solve many crimes with only one piece of evidence, but when a case is so disputable that you have to get down to the most nitty gritty of science to use as your evidence, you need everything available to you to make some sort of determination.


graphic modeling is an art, but 3d simulation is a science. once again, the problem with your train of thought is that you don't think 3d simulations be accurate when the exact is true.

On the contrary, I know 3D simulations can be accurate, but I also know that they can be manipulated or used to mislead.

3d simulations are VERY accurate. i don't THINK simulations are accurate, i KNOW they are. i don't mean to toot my own horn but i work as a 3d person doing instructional materials and simulations for the Navy so you're not just talking to a person who blindfully saw the 3d simulation and instantly thought "omg! it's troo!!!" i'm not saying the simulation is the end all, be all of evidence...but it's shows a very convincing simulation of one possible way the events on that day happened.

Yes, and that one possible way is ABC's one possible way. It may be convincing, but as I said, 3D simulation can be manipulated, and we should still be skeptical, especially with the amount of evidence that is not included in the documentary, and when the U.S. government has already determined that there was a second shooter.

so...please don't be so naive and think that the special on ABC is the only thing on JFK i've seen. it just happens to be the most convincing, to me, out of all the other theories i've heard about.

The only evidence you've given so far in this debate is from the ABC special, which I'm certain we can now agree cannot be considered the most solid of sources to base your information on.

...

 

[Dark Vigilante]

edit

 

[Dark Vigilante]

All of those are random and unrelated facts for the most part. You are construing them into seemingly cohesive evidence to support some left field conspiracy theory. None of that is clear, solid evidence to support a theory that Oswald did not do it. Some of that is even laughable (like Oswald and Ruby's testimony about their involvement).

First of all, heres Oswald and Ruby's testimony:

Oswald
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZYAIiErTNg

Ruby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we2eucWXqjg

And secondly, the information I gave you is completely relevent. Perhaps if you could comprehend the big picture it would become more clear to you. Every thing I said in that post was factual motivation for an assassination of the President at the hands of some of the most powerful people in the country at the time. It historical fact that all of those things happened. You can find it by doing light research. To call it support for some "left field" conspiracy is incredibly naive and merely only displays your apalling ignorance. Open your mind and consider something other then what has been fed to you.

 

[Demon Within]

Talk about non solid evidence.

He was likely very nervous about his emotions caused him to miss. He was probably more prepared to shoot Kennedy.

Good one. More prepared and less nervous to shoot the President of the U.S.A in broad day light with hundred of people around then a Major General sitting a a desk with no one watching. Perfectly understandable.

Oh yeah. He was clearly innocent because he denied it.

He is the ONLY person to assassinate a public figure an deny it. Everyother assassin has admitted to doing so. Odd.

He had Marine Corp. training so he knew how use a rifle quickly.

Makes sense. Except for the fact his shots were something PROFESSIONAL SNIPERS dream of. He shot off 2 rounds in under 3 seconds. This was a bolt action italian rifle he had to chamber every shot. Shot>chamber>shot in under 3 seconds while reaquiring his moving target that was going away from him.

No it doesn't. The bullet goes through and when it goes out, it "explodes" and forces Kennedy's head back.

A bullet doesnt magically go through you it forces its way. Your sking/blood/skull and everything else "drag" the bullet or slow it down. The "exploding" effect is the bullet exiting an it along with air pressure and momentum force everything apart outwards. How again does the bullet coming from the back, that "explodes" the BACK of his head force his head and body BACKWARD toward the direction the bullet was shot? Please enlighten me.

 

[Demon Within]

An yet no one comments about the video I have given showing where the bullet came from even though I gave the link an exact time you can see the evidence.

 

[DorkyFresh]

1) How did he become such a good shot when on April 10, 1963 he failed to assassinate Major General Walker at less then a 100ft while he was sitting at a desk. Luck?

different situations. i don't know all the details surrounding that incident but it's possible that Lee Harvey was in a bad location, maybe there were structures or trees in the way. Lee Harvey had an almost perfect setup at Dealy Plaza.

2) Why would Oswald deny having killed the President? Why would he claim he was a patsy? Fishy.

he's not inhuman. he might've been calm and collective if he killed Kennedy but that was at that time. just because a person is calm and collective during a certain situation doesn't mean he always will be. if he killed Kennedy, at that point...he was in control. he wasn't in control when he was handcuffed with cameras and lights in his face. i'm sure he was very scared and fearful for his life. there are PLENTY of people that lie because of fear.

3) Not only was he one of the best (or luckiest) shooters in the WORLD he was also one of the fastest shooting 3 times (twice on target) in under 8 seconds. Two of the shots coming back to back in under 3 seconds. Amazing stuff.

there have been 40+ year old men (slower men) that have proven that 3 shots can be fired in 8 seconds with the same kind of gun with similar results. man can work wonders when his adrenaline is pumping.

4) A bullet goes through someone yes but it also carries that persons momentum with it because it "drags" through the area making Oswalds headshot about as impossible as it gets.

the momentum DID effect Kennedy's head. i showed you the animated gif of Kennedy's head jolting forward right before his head flings back. this forward jolt is the effect of the bullet digging into Kennedy's head. the backwards movement is caused by the explosion. his head doesn't move a few inches in 1 frame of film just because he leans. that's in impact effect....not a leaning effect.

 

[Dark Vigilante]

Watch the video. I dare you. http://youtube.com/watch?v=xPRpfsLKink

Theres the link. So you dont have to watch the whole video go to 29 seconds into it. Its the first appearance of blood mist an youll also notice the driver turned completely around with an outstretched arm an a silver object in his hand. Once the headshot is registered he quickly turns around an steps on the pedal. Also notice no one was watching him. Another thing to consider is the doctors who did the autopsy indicated JFKs headshot for more accurate of a hand gun wound the rifle.

One more thing. Multiple people including people inside of the cars following JFKs said they smelled gun powder.

Now how can you sit through that video and seriously tell yourself that the fatal shot came from Lee Harbey Oswald, positioned BEHIND the motorocade. I'm doubtful about the driver conspiracy, but it is painfully obvious that the shot came from the front.

 

[Demon Within]

Now you just making excuses. I have given evidence your giving excuses.

In your GIF I see his head along with his upper body jerk violently back. Also the back of his head later shows what is clearly an EXIT wound I.E. the "exploding" effect. This does not happen with an ENTRANCE wound which is usually slightly bigger then the acual bullet. What the hell was he using to explode the back of his head when making its entrance? A ****ing shotgun?

Your 40+ year old man theory is wrong. Its already been proven that no one, NOT ONE PERSON can duplicate what Oswald did that day. They used top pf the line snipers an they could not do it. That says something.

http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id87.htm

 

[Demon Within]

Now how can you sit through that video and seriously tell yourself that the fatal shot came from Lee Harbey Oswald, positioned BEHIND the motorocade. I'm doubtful about the driver conspiracy, but it is painfully obvious that the shot came from the front.

Driver go to 16 seconds into the video. Look at the drivers seat on the bottem right of the screen. If you can tell me what else that could be im all ears. Im serious.

 

[DorkyFresh]

it's obvious you 2 are going to think what you want to think regardless of whatever evidence is put in front of you...


...you're denying logic, reason, science, and proof. i'm done discussing this with you 2. whatever replies to my posts will be ignored by me...have a nice one.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Talk about non solid evidence.

Good one. More prepared and less nervous to shoot the President of the U.S.A in broad day light with hundred of people around then a Major General sitting a a desk with no one watching. Perfectly understandable.

I am speculating because there is nothing else to base it on. You are making it sound like Oswald was out in the middle of the street and feet away from Kennedy. He was in a building that was for the most part empty and tucked away in a corner several stories above the ground. No one was looking at the buildings for him, they were looking at the motorcade.

He is the ONLY person to assassinate a public figure an deny it. Everyother assassin has admitted to doing so. Odd.

That's great, but what does it prove? Millions of people claim innocent to a charge. You really think he's any different?

Makes sense. Except for the fact his shots were something PROFESSIONAL SNIPERS dream of. He shot off 2 rounds in under 3 seconds. This was a bolt action italian rifle he had to chamber every shot. Shot>chamber>shot in under 3 seconds while reaquiring his moving target that was going away from him.

It was not 3 seconds. Penn and Teller did this test as well and proved it was possible in the amount of time most "legitimate" conspiracy theorists believe.

A bullet doesnt magically go through you it forces its way. Your sking/blood/skull and everything else "drag" the bullet or slow it down. The "exploding" effect is the bullet exiting an it along with air pressure and momentum force everything apart outwards. How again does the bullet coming from the back, that "explodes" the BACK of his head force his head and body BACKWARD toward the direction the bullet was shot? Please enlighten me.

I've already gone over this. Look at my past posts.

 

[Dark Vigilante]

it's obvious you 2 are going to think what you want to think regardless of whatever evidence is put in front of you...


...you're denying logic, reason, science, and proof. i'm done discussing this you with 2. any replies to my posts will be ignored by me...have a nice one.

Don't get frustrated that you didn't convince me. I'm open-minded, if you presented anything other then what I've already seen I would analyze it completely free of bias. No need to get angry.

 

[DorkyFresh]

don't waste your time, Spidey-Bat...Kennedy himself could come back in ghost form and tell them that Lee Harvey Oswald was the assassin and they still would deny it.

 

[Demon Within]

it's obvious you 2 are going to think what you want to think regardless of whatever evidence is put in front of you...


...you're denying logic, reason, science, and proof. i'm done discussing this with you 2. whatever replies to my posts will be ignored by me...have a nice one.

No you make it obvious you dont want to believe anything other they what your already do. Give me evidence that supports a lone gunman did this. Iv given MULTIPLE ways in which it could not have gone down including the website I just linked. Furthermore you refuse to even comment about what the driver is doing in either links iv given you.

It was not 3 seconds. Penn and Teller did this test as well and proved it was possible in the amount of time most "legitimate" conspiracy theorists believe.

"Numerous witnesses, from all over the plaza, said that two of the shots came so closely together that they were almost simultaneous. Some witnesses even said they sounded like a single burst from an automatic rifle."




http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id87.htm source.

 

[Dark Vigilante]

Driver go to 16 seconds into the video. Look at the drivers seat on the bottem right of the screen. If you can tell me what else that could be im all ears. Im serious.

I couldn't make out anything. It appears that he only turned around to see what was happening. It's a bit far fetched to say that the driver did it, point blank, with a hand gun, in open day light, in front of a crowd of people.

 

[Demon Within]

don't waste your time, Spidey-Bat...Kennedy himself could come back in ghost form and tell them that Lee Harvey Oswald was the assassin and they still would deny it.

You havent given ANY evidence to support your claim an the few things you have given iv easily dismissed with LOGIC like the EXIT wound being on the back of his head when by your own admission the bullet came from the BACK meaning it should be on the temple.

Or the fact that Oswald did something UNHEARD OF BY EXPERTS and that it has not been duplicated since he did it 44 years ago.

Iv even given 2 videos with exact times of a person holding a gun who seems to shoot him in the head an you have said NOTHING about what else it could be.

I applaud you for leaving its obvious you have nothing to add except "It was oswald".

 

[Demon Within]

I couldn't make out anything. It appears that he only turned around to see what was happening. It's a bit far fetched to say that the driver did it, point blank, with a hand gun, in open day light, in front of a crowd of people.

Give me a way to screen capture it an ill post it in a second.