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Discussion in 'Iron Man' started by Thread Manager, May 6, 2013.
This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]457063[/split]
So, just for clarification, [BLACKOUT]the Mandarin referred to in this thread title is not just the one played by Ben Kingsley (who is actually playing an actor named Trevor Slattery), but also the REAL Mandarin in the movie, Aldrich Killian (played by Guy Pearce).[/BLACKOUT]
So...a quick rundown of how the Mandarin is handled in this film (at least as far as I understand it)...
[BLACKOUT]Aldrich Killian is humiliated by Tony Stark in 1999, and goes on to create the AIM organization in public and the Ten Rings terrorist organization in private. He does this in an effort to control demand and supply on both sides of a general war on terrorism by weaponizing the human body with Extremis to fight terrorists (?).
Killian also creates a persona called "the Mandarin" that will act as the head of his terrorist organization and hired drunken, but gifted actor Trevor Slattery to play the part. He outfits Trevor with robes and rings, and writes the words he will speak. For all intents and purposes, the bearded Mandarin in the terrorist videos is a puppet, and Killian is pulling the strings.
In fact, Killian has injected himself with Extremis, and has gained superpowers as a result. With his glowing dragon tattoo, he exclaims in the end that he himself is actually the Mandarin...which would in turn make Ben Kingsley's Mandarin something of a facade.[/BLACKOUT]
So what's your opinion on the Mandarin in Iron Man 3?
[BLACKOUT]*This thread is something of a rebirth of the "twist of Mandarin" thread...just with everyone posting SPOILERS in SPOILER TAGS or BLACKOUT TEXT...and a less spoilery title! [/BLACKOUT]
Pepper gets superpowers.
Mandarin gets nothing.
Mandarin was Killian. He wasn't that great a character to begin with, Iron Man isn't Spider-Man or Batman, he's the selling point not his rogues. Most casual fans were upset with the Arc Reactor being removed rather than the Mandarin reveal.
Except the ability to breathe fire, cut through Stark armor with his bare hands, throw massive objects around like they're made out of paper, and the ability to instantly regenerate and regrow lost limbs. Did I leave anything out?
I loved it. It was probably the most original and fun part of the film. However, keep in mind that Mandarin is not an iconic villain like Red Skull or Green Goblin. He's only Iron Man's archenemy by default because he has the worst rogues gallery of pretty much any major superhero. So it didn't bother that they 'ruined' him, unlike it would if it was say...Dr. Doom.
Did you miss the part where Killian breathes fire at Rhodey and screams, "I'M THE MANDARIN!" at Tony?
I personally felt IM3 was...ok.
Where to begin? I will say there were some good comedic moments in the movie, and I was diggin' the Mark 42 armor. I also felt like the relationship between the young Tennessee boy and Tony was a highlight of the film, as we see that Tony hasn't completely grown up, and still has a bit of boyish rogue going for him.
That being said...
I wasn't really onboard with the Tony-PTSD portrayal. It felt very strange, and forced. I certainly hope we aren't going to see a depressed Cap and a stressed out Thor in the coming movies. Frankly, I got the general feeling from Tony that after New York, he would never be a hero again, and that's just not the Iron Man I want to see.
I felt like the portrayal of AIM was butchered at best, slaughtered at worst. They did the same thing they pulled with the Whiplash/Crimson Dynamo mix-n-match in Iron Man 2, and it doesnt work in my opinion. AIM was a completely different kind of opponent for Iron Man, with The Controller, MODOK and the science aspect of the Marvel Universe, while the Mandarin is more of a history and magic angle. Mixing the two just felt forced.
Then there is the Extremis story. While there were certainly elements of Extremis in the movie, I much prefer the comic book story, and Tony's use of Extremis to take his game to another level, along with it being the primary method of defeating Mallen. Instead, we got an Extremis-in-name-only story, with bits and pieces cobbled together for effect.
I have 2 other points of contention. First is the lack of SHIELD. Granted, this was supposed to be a non-Avengers story...however, the President is kidnapped, you have a super-villian blowing stuff up all across the country, and yet, other than a mention of Tony using their database, it's as if SHIELD doesn't exist. Don't get me wrong, I feel this needed to be an Iron Man centric story, however, I fel like they went out of their way to make SHIELD invisible in the movie, and it ultimately did a disservice to the film. I feel there could have been ways to incorporate SHIELD into the plot of the film, while still leaving this as Tony's problem to solve.
Finally, there is the relationship between Rhodey and Tony. Is it just me, or did it feel like Rhodey and Tony were more "passing aquaintences" than real friends and heroic partners in this film? In the final fight, War Machine isn't even hardly involved, and the majority of the movie the two of them are apart. Furthermore, there isn't even a single instance of Tony questioning why War Machine didn't have his back in New York. Heck, in the bar scene they could have had Tony giving Rhodey a bad time for missing the battle with the Chitauri and that would have been not only a nod to the Avengers, but also tie up the question of why War Machine was non existent in the attack.
While it might seem I'm picking the movie to shreds, I will say I did enjoy myself. It was a good film to kick back, relax and enjoy some Iron Man, but I do feel it could have been better, and it certainly didn't deliver (at least for me) as strongly as The Avengers did.
On a scale of 1-10, I give IM3 an 8.
I find that extremely hard to believe. Do you have any proof to back up that assertion? Did you survey "casual fans"?
Yeah, he turned from a butt ugly, sympathetic nerd to badass Guy Pearce.
I'm just burned that they left out some of Kingsely's best lines of dialogue from the trailers in the film.
"Ladies, children, sheep..." - Not in film.
"Lesson. Number. One... Heroes, there is no such thing." - Not in film.
"I'm going to offer you a choice. Do you want an empty life, or a meaningful death?" - Not in film.
"Mr. Stark. Today, is the first day of what's left of your life." - Not in film.
I would have accepted the [blackout]twist[/blackout] a lot easier, especially knowing it was going to happen -- I if I had still gotten to see MORE of Kingsley absolutely owning the role and being a total badass. He was so spot-on. So perfect. I wanted these lost pieces to get every bit of it. Why were these cut?
Don't sell me a bill of goods, promising my money for an amazing take and performance by an amazing actor -- and then leave almost EVERYTHING that you advertised him doing on the cutting room floor.
SHIELD had probably already investigated "The Mandarin" and correctly deduced that it was smoke and mirrors. They'd put their ear to the ground and listen to chatter in the terrorist networks and find no evidence of such a person actually existing, and chalk it up to some nut trying to take credit for things he had nothing to do with.
Plus, SHIELD seems to be devoted to investigating and countering superpowered threats, not "mundane" ones that can be handled by the FBI or CIA or other appropriate organizations.
There's a prequel comic to IM3 that explains why WM wasn't at the Battle of New York. (The US had sent him to fight a Ten Rings cell in Hong Kong at the very same time the Chitauri invasion dropped.) And Tony and Rhodey *had* to be apart for most of the film because (a) Tony was laying low, and (b) Rhodey was very high profile, by contrast. The Prez had pretty much personally tasked him with taking on The Mandarin mano-a-mano. So neither could be seen together.
But I agree that they missed a huge opportunity to debut the "new" War Machine armor during the final fight. Rhodey asks Tony to suit him up, and Tony blows him off. I fully expected to see the new WM armor at that moment, but.....nothin'.
Exactly. I find it funny now that all of a sudden, Mandarin is now considered an iconic comic book villain when in fact I personally don't think any of Iron Man's best comic book stories even had The Mandarin in it.
Who ever said he was a classic villain?
Agreed. He's basically the least crappy in a long line of crappy villains for a second tier character.
I don't think he's an iconic comic villain. What I DO think is that a whole ton of people were excited for the movie version based on the awesome trailers which built him up and those expectations were completely dashed when he was revealed to be some drunken idiot named Trevor. I could give a fig about comic-Mandarin. I was excited for "you'll neveeerrrrr seeee meeee comminnnng" Mandarin. Instead I got "don't go in the bathroom for 20 minutes" Mandarin. Yeah, it was damn disappointing.
I truly loved it and just about everything about this movie.
How are you defining "iconic". As someone who didn't read comics, I wouldn't say Green Goblin was iconic. I always thought Dr. Octopus was Spider-man's arch enemy. Never even heard of Loki for most of my life, and they still made him bad ass. Galactus wasn't iconic, and I always found him corny, but everybody lost their minds because of how he was treated in the second Fantastic Four movie, and understandably so. Iron Monger, Whiplash, and even Justin Hammer were much more awesome in their movies, and they are less iconic than Mandarin. So I'm not sure why Mandarin getting the shaft is acceptable.
Oh, and why is this poll closed already? The movie has only been out for four days in America. I would like to add my voice to the dissatisfaction.
Some wonderful points.
LET THE MAN VOTE! His voice must be heard!
I felt like this version could have been iconic and a proper arch-villain for Stark had they actually gone with it. I loved what they had done with the multi-cultural look and stately voice that seemed to be mocking the U.S.
The Mandarin seen in the trailers + Magic rings = potential Loki levels of awesome
I'm not upset because the villain wasn't an offensive Asian stereotype. I'm upset because Trevor was a lame twist and "the real Mandarin" is a generic bad guy despite being able to breath fire.
And that's exactly what they got. They created a character that drew upon a bunch of different symbols, tropes and stereotypes to create a menacing and enigmatic figure.
It just so happens that the creation of such a figure is part of the plot.
On the flipside, we get a hero, Iron Patriot whose every element "tested well with the focus groups."
I understand the frustration, but personally it was more interesting than anything that I've seen in a comic film in a long long time.
I actually liked the movie, but it's just such wasted potential by not using Kingsley's take on the Mandarin. I would've even gave him the magic rings and bring in some Foom.
Magic has already been introduced into the MU already, so I don't get the fear of not going there.
Their "twist" would've worked with me, but it felt clever for the sake of being clever.
And it brought focus back on Pearce, who I feel is the most uninteresting character in the whole trilogy.
The one thing I didn't get was all the footage of Kingsley's Mandarin in the desert with those terrorists, so were they all suppose to be actors too?