Iron Man 3 The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

[Tony Stark]

I interpreted that differently. The prequel comic also established that the 10 rings operated in cells that were independent from one another, each one headed up by one leader that didnt really have any contact with any of the other cells. Each cell would receive weapons and money from a unknown source (more than likely Killian and AIM), and as long as they kept getting it they didnt care where it was coming from. Raza was clearly the leader of his cell but just because his cell was defeated doesnt mean the whole organization came down.

I dont think Killian just adopted the name and logo, I believe Killian as the Mandarin created the 10 Rings right from the get go and was controlling them from the shadows in order to create a terrorist group in order to give America a perpetual enemy to fight in order to set in motion his plans to profit from that fighting. He then came up with Trevor in order to give a public face to the group while still operating behind the scenes.

That was my thought as well.

 

[Human Torch]

What it comes down to is that Shane didn't like the villain The Mandarin so he came up with a cheap twist that mirrors his dislike of the character, instead of actually trying to respect a character by it's own merits and making him interesting if he wasn't before. Then as a final insult to "satisfy the fans", he slapped the name of The Mandarin on Killian. neat

Exactly.I remember reading that Mandarin was going to be in this film,and I remember thinking "Is this the same Shane Black that was saying 'Never ever-I -swear-on-my-momma's-soul-EVER,would I use The Mandarin'?"

It should've tipped me off then.

I get a kick out of how Raimi gets crap for using Venom,when he hated the character.Turned out more faithful than Black's "stroke of genius" Mandarin.

 

[Mjölnir]

Exactly.I remember reading that Mandarin was going to be in this film,and I remember thinking "Is this the same Shane Black that was saying 'Never ever-I -swear-on-my-momma's-soul-EVER,would I use The Mandarin'?"

It should've tipped me off then.

I get a kick out of how Raimi gets crap for using Venom,when he hated the character.Turned out more faithful than Black's "stroke of genius" Mandarin.

In my view Venom was more in need of something new though. I've never really understood how he became such a popular Spider-Man villain. I think he's a fairly flat monster villain that also suffers from being a copy, while there's so many Spidey antagonists that have interesting personalities and powers.

While I don't want it with every character I think the IM franchise has had a couple of good variants where they've combined villains/elements into something that's both old and new. With such things here and there it keeps things fresh while still being Marvel. Of course it can go wrong as well, but that goes for keeping it faithful as well, as Spider-Man 3 shows in my view.

 

[MichaelChen]

The Mandarin was a name of an established character so it has a meaning thus you can't just give that name to anyone. Killian is the puppet master and he gets the credit for being the master mind, but that doesn't mean he also has to/gets to bear the name of The Mandarin when Killian and Kingsley's Mandarin are 2 totally different things

What? Killian is The Mandarin in-story because he was the one actually giving the orders. And he's The Mandarin in a meta sense because he's a mad scientist and superhuman martial artist who is motivated by rage and vanity, just like comic Mandarin.

 

[JMan616]

(Post has been deleted by its poster)

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Of course no one is going to respond to a rambling, 3500+ word first-time post that appeared so early in the morning on a topic that some care to keep on denying was the intention of Marvel and Shane Black.

 

[Dagenspear]

Of course no one is going to respond to a rambling, 3500+ word first-time post that appeared so early in the morning on a topic that some care to keep on denying was the intention of Marvel and Shane Black.

Nobody's denying anybody's intention. What they're denying is the stupidity behind the intention. Justifying it is the only they can cope with the betrayal of trust they feel.

 

[Disciple of Syn]

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, this is just my opinion, but I don't see how you can not feel just a bit slighted by the Mandarin reveal. Everything about Kingsley's performance as Iron Man's "arch-nemesis" seemed to scream 'iconic, remarkable, memorable,' in the trailers. I just felt that Iron Man was going to face something unlike anything he's faced before, and is beyond a 'terrorist.' And then he's revealed to be almost a cut-and-paste copy of Justin Hammer, just with kung-fu skills and a more restrained personality. With the quality actor that Pearce is, I'm sure he would've been an amazing Mandarin if given reign, why not just have him be the actual Mandarin instead of half an amalgamation of the same character? All for the sake of a "brilliant" twist and a ten-twelve minute comedy scene? Maybe I just don't get it...

 

[Spideysays]

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, this is just my opinion, but I don't see how you can not feel just a bit slighted by the Mandarin reveal. Everything about Kingsley's performance as Iron Man's "arch-nemesis" seemed to scream 'iconic, remarkable, memorable,' in the trailers. I just felt that Iron Man was going to face something unlike anything he's faced before, and is beyond a 'terrorist.' And then he's revealed to be almost a cut-and-paste copy of Justin Hammer, just with kung-fu skills and a more restrained personality. With the quality actor that Pearce is, I'm sure he would've been an amazing Mandarin if given reign, why not just have him be the actual Mandarin instead of half an amalgamation of the same character? All for the sake of a "brilliant" twist and a ten-twelve minute comedy scene? Maybe I just don't get it...

 

[cherokeesam]

I interpreted that differently. The prequel comic also established that the 10 rings operated in cells that were independent from one another, each one headed up by one leader that didnt really have any contact with any of the other cells. Each cell would receive weapons and money from a unknown source (more than likely Killian and AIM), and as long as they kept getting it they didnt care where it was coming from. Raza was clearly the leader of his cell but just because his cell was defeated doesnt mean the whole organization came down.

I dont think Killian just adopted the name and logo, I believe Killian as the Mandarin created the 10 Rings right from the get go and was controlling them from the shadows in order to create a terrorist group in order to give America a perpetual enemy to fight in order to set in motion his plans to profit from that fighting. He then came up with Trevor in order to give a public face to the group while still operating behind the scenes.

That doesn't jibe with the explanation in the movie that Killian created the Mandarin and the faux terrorist attacks as a way to cover up the exploding Extremis soldiers who couldn't "regulate." The war profiteering was a *by-product* of that, not a *cause* of that.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, this is just my opinion, but I don't see how you can not feel just a bit slighted by the Mandarin reveal. Everything about Kingsley's performance as Iron Man's "arch-nemesis" seemed to scream 'iconic, remarkable, memorable,' in the trailers. I just felt that Iron Man was going to face something unlike anything he's faced before, and is beyond a 'terrorist.' And then he's revealed to be almost a cut-and-paste copy of Justin Hammer, just with kung-fu skills and a more restrained personality. With the quality actor that Pearce is, I'm sure he would've been an amazing Mandarin if given reign, why not just have him be the actual Mandarin instead of half an amalgamation of the same character? All for the sake of a "brilliant" twist and a ten-twelve minute comedy scene? Maybe I just don't get it...

I don't recall Justin Hammer ever breathing fire, walking unscathed through lethal explosions, throwing around multi-ton equipment and containers at a shipyard, all while commanding an army of superhumans and being on the verge of having the White House in the palm of his hand.

Restraint was absolutely necessary on Killian's part, because he had to operate from the shadows. Trevor/"Mandarin" was the facade that would distract the public and the government and the troops. If Killian had been public, over-the-top and very much out in the open, then suspicion and attention would've turned to him immediately and the whole charade would be lost.

 

[JMan616]

Of course no one is going to respond to a rambling, 3500+ word first-time post that appeared so early in the morning on a topic that some care to keep on denying was the intention of Marvel and Shane Black.

I thought thought the first post organized well enough, but regardless you know what, you're right. I was to brazen/blunt in a rather boneheaded move/attempt to try and incorporate myself involved in the conversation out of frustation. I'll just pull out, at least for now as I guess for lack of a better term I'm not acclimated to this sort of forum.

 

[Disciple of Syn]

That doesn't jibe with the explanation in the movie that Killian created the Mandarin and the faux terrorist attacks as a way to cover up the exploding Extremis soldiers who couldn't "regulate." The war profiteering was a *by-product* of that, not a *cause* of that.



I don't recall Justin Hammer ever breathing fire, walking unscathed through lethal explosions, throwing around multi-ton equipment and containers at a shipyard, all while commanding an army of superhumans and being on the verge of having the White House in the palm of his hand.

Restraint was absolutely necessary on Killian's part, because he had to operate from the shadows. Trevor/"Mandarin" was the facade that would distract the public and the government and the troops. If Killian had been public, over-the-top and very much out in the open, then suspicion and attention would've turned to him immediately and the whole charade would be lost.

Alright then, Justin Hammer+super-powers/kung-fu skills=Killian. When I strip away the powers and what feel like last-minute attempts to create likeness between Killian and The Mandarin, it seems like he's just another Iron Man villain hell-bent on completely dominating Tony Stark's life and/or the world they inhabit in some form. A Justin Hammer, or a Stane, only he doesn't have a truly clear, or strong motivation for doing so. The fact that there are pages upon pages STILL debating what Killian's true motivation was for doing the things he did isn't because he was complex, at least imo, but because his motivations didn't line up or were confusing. I'm also of the school of thought that it's not necessarily what a villain does that cements his/her legacy in a movie or a film, but the way he/she does it and how it makes them stand out from all the would-be rulers of the world. You list the things Killian has 'almost done' as if he's reached a certain standard of super villainy that should be acknowledged, and to me that's not the case. (sorry if I'm wrong, though...)

As for his restraint and his behavior and whatnot, I have, or would have had no problem with Killian being as suave, coy, and sarcastic as he was..don't have a problem with his attitude..it's just the execution behind it all that bothers me. If they were that hell-bent on having Killian be the actual Mandarin, then have him from the beginning, or do so in a way that doesn't portray a more classical approach to the character (Kinsgley's version) as a complete joke or parody. Wasn't necessary. The Mandarin isn't as well known as other iconic super villains, so I understand this allowed them to take liberties with the character, but they could've used that privilege to create a Mandarin worthy of potentially being Iron Man's last greatest foe and they, imo, dropped the ball. When Killian yelled, "It was me all along, I'M THE MANDARIN!" it kind of took me out of the film because it was like he was trying to convince me to believe in something I knew in my heart was a blatant lie.

 

[cherokeesam]

The way Mandarin was portrayed in the movie *was* necessary to the intent of the film. The film's whole raison-d'etre was to make a comment on the way we --- as comic book/movie fans, and as people in general....particularly Americans living in the "Age of Terror" --- create false boogeymen and use them as excuses for our wars, both personal and political/(inter)national. The "Twist" was a thematic choice, and central to what the movie was saying. It wasn't some gimmick.

 

[Disciple of Syn]

As a political message for the war of terror, I guess it accomplished its goal, but imo it was at the cost of some of its quality, and managed to rob Mandarin fans of the experience of seeing a more faithful and impressive "Mandarin" on screen, as well as cheated casuals who might not know any better from the true potential that a character of Mandarin might have. This film wasn't/isn't supposed to display the way Americans live in an age of terror, although it's a nice twist and gives the film a lot more depth, above all else it's supposed to be a "comic book" film. If Ben Kingsley remained as The Mandarin throughout the entire film, with a full fledged arc and everything, I don't think the reason some people would be unhappy with his betrayal because it didn't fit with the film's intent. You actually telling me about this actually makes it even more disheartening because they could've still (if they needed to) done that without the bait-and-switch, I'd like to believe at least.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

But Killian's drive wasn't to get back at Tony.

It sort of was if you think about. He kidnapped Pepper and used her as a "trophy" and what Tony did to him in '99 turned him into a supervillain. I think he kind of wanted to get back at Tony.
It was the Incredibles. t:

 

[cherokeesam]

It sort of was if you think about. He kidnapped Pepper and used her as a "trophy" and what Tony did to him in '99 turned him into a supervillain. I think he kind of wanted to get back at Tony.
It was the Incredibles. t:

It's a common misconception that Killian was trying to get "revenge" for the New Years Eve party, but simply not true. The party wasn't significant to Killian because of his meeting with Stark, it was significant to him because of his meeting with *Maya.* By introducing him to Extremis, she literally saved his life and gave him purpose and meaning. Yes, he resented Stark's callous attitude from NYE99, but he never sought to "get back" at him. In fact, the movie opens with him going to Stark Enterprises in present day to ask for *help.*

 

[Ms. Marvel]

It's a common misconception that Killian was trying to get "revenge" for the New Years Eve party, but simply not true. The party wasn't significant to Killian because of his meeting with Stark, it was significant to him because of his meeting with *Maya.* By introducing him to Extremis, she literally saved his life and gave him purpose and meaning. Yes, he resented Stark's callous attitude from NYE99, but he never sought to "get back" at him. In fact, the movie opens with him going to Stark Enterprises in present day to ask for *help.*

Yes and Syndrome resented Mr. Incredible but his main aim was to be respected as a superhero. Hence that robot thingy he created so he can "defeat" it in public.
And he tied Mr. Incredible up and told him he killed his family (the missile attack on the jet) .
Killian tied Tony up and showed him Pepper undergoing Extremis and telling him she might die.
I liked IM3 and all but it has some similarities to the Incredibles. I'm not saying its a ripoff though.

 

[MichaelChen]

It's actually much older than the Incredibles. Lex Luthor was created when Superman accidentally rendered him bald, and thereafter Luthor was out for revenge. Joker was created when Batman accidentally dropped him into some chemicals, and thereafter Joker was out for revenge. It's very standard for villains to be out for revenge.

The few that aren't about revenge, tend to be guys who think that they and the hero should rule together. Green Goblin wanted Spidey to rule with him, and became his enemy once rejected. Lizard wanted Spider-Man to work together with him, and rejection was part of his motives.

The Killiandarin actually combines both motives.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

It's actually much older than the Incredibles. Lex Luthor was created when Superman accidentally rendered him bald, and thereafter Luthor was out for revenge. Joker was created when Batman accidentally dropped him into some chemicals, and thereafter Joker was out for revenge. It's very standard for villains to be out for revenge.

The few that aren't about revenge, tend to be guys who think that they and the hero should rule together. Green Goblin wanted Spidey to rule with him, and became his enemy once rejected. Lizard wanted Spider-Man to work together with him, and rejection was part of his motives.

The Killiandarin actually combines both motives.

But they were never put in movies. t:

 

[TheWallCrawler]

Spoiler

So the logicial conclusion is that Ten Rings was pretty much defunct after IM1; so when Killian was looking for a terrorist group to scapegoat for his lab experiments gone wrong, it looked like a good idea to resurrect the Ten Rings concept and steal their logo and symbols. So "The Mandarin" probably didn't even come into existence until some time between 2010 and 2012, between IM2 and Avengers. That would give a convenient explanation for why such an apparently powerful and charismatic leader of Ten Rings didn't exist during the IM1 movie.

So you are basically saying that Killian only renewed the Ten Rings as their leader so he could use it it to scapegoat his fail lab experiments. In that case, Killian being the leader of Ten Rings is completely phony. He's not really a terrorist group leader in spirit at all, he's just using them. Even when people working for him in Ten Rings believe he's a legit leader, it doesn't change the fact that he's faking. Then when he creates a completely different kind of character for Trevor Slattery called The Mandarin, he then later says that he is actually the real Mandarin himself, even though their characters are so far apart that it makes zero sense at that point.

Then there's the dumb line that contradicts your theory: "It was always me". That basically means that Killian was always behind everything that happened, even in Iron Man 1. It also means that they just slapped the twist in there without thinking of the consequences. There's just too much holes in the twist

In a nut shell (now this is all based on your theory), Trevor was the fake Mandarin and Killian is the real one, but Killian is a fake himself too. this is the genius twist that you all have been praising, starting to see my point yet?

 

[cherokeesam]

So you are basically saying that Killian only renewed the Ten Rings as their leader so he could use it it to scapegoat his fail lab experiments. In that case, Killian being the leader of Ten Rings is completely phony. He's not really a terrorist group leader in spirit at all, he's just using them. Even when people working for him in Ten Rings believe he's a legit leader, it doesn't change the fact that he's faking. Then when he creates a completely different kind of character for Trevor Slattery called The Mandarin, he then later says that he is actually the real Mandarin himself, even though their characters are so far apart that it makes zero sense at that point.

Then there's the dumb line that contradicts your theory: "It was always me". That basically means that Killian was always behind everything that happened, even in Iron Man 1. It also means that they just slapped the twist in there without thinking of the consequences. There's just too much holes in the twist

In a nut shell (now this is all based on your theory), Trevor was the fake Mandarin and Killian is the real one, but Killian is a fake himself too. this is the genius twist that you all have been praising, starting to see my point yet?

No, "It was always me" does *not* mean he's been around ever since IM1, or even before. Some people, yourself included, choose to read it that way, but that's not set in stone by any stretch of the imagination. There is no proof whatsoever that Killian was ever involved in the events of IM1 or IM2.

And as I stated earlier, the fact that Killian begins this movie with hat in hand coming to Stark Industries for help absolutely disproves that he was already at war with Tony, or sought out "revenge" for an imagined slight from 13 years ago.

As to your point about Killian being a "fake," too: what *is* your point? Regardless of whether or not he actually created the Ten Rings (he didn't), he's obviously commanding them now (you might have to use the IM3 prequel comic for "proof" of that, but Marvel Studios says it's film canon, so). So he's still a supervillain, a master manipulator, a kingmaker, a commander of both terrorists and superhuman mercenaries. So yeah, Killian-Mandarin is still the biggest bad-ass Tony Stark has ever faced on his own.

 

[Saitou Hajime]

Yes and Syndrome resented Mr. Incredible but his main aim was to be respected as a superhero. Hence that robot thingy he created so he can "defeat" it in public.
And he tied Mr. Incredible up and told him he killed his family (the missile attack on the jet) .
Killian tied Tony up and showed him Pepper undergoing Extremis and telling him she might die.
I liked IM3 and all but it has some similarities to the Incredibles. I'm not saying its a ripoff though.

Syndrome didn't want to be respected as a hero, he wanted to invalidate the very concept of the superhero as a personal FU to Mr. Incredible. Defeating the robot was just a means to gain notoriety with the public and setup that goal.

Killian did what he did to compel Tony to cooperate, not out of pure spite like with Syndrome and Mr. Incredible.

 

[blksuperman2]

Yes and Syndrome resented Mr. Incredible but his main aim was to be respected as a superhero. Hence that robot thingy he created so he can "defeat" it in public.
And he tied Mr. Incredible up and told him he killed his family (the missile attack on the jet) .
Killian tied Tony up and showed him Pepper undergoing Extremis and telling him she might die.
I liked IM3 and all but it has some similarities to the Incredibles. I'm not saying its a ripoff though.

Not sure if you saw this already but it's pretty funny.

[YT]OUYW0JyzydA[/YT]

 

[TheWallCrawler]

Spoiler

No, "It was always me" does *not* mean he's been around ever since IM1, or even before. Some people, yourself included, choose to read it that way, but that's not set in stone by any stretch of the imagination. There is no proof whatsoever that Killian was ever involved in the events of IM1 or IM2.

And as I stated earlier, the fact that Killian begins this movie with hat in hand coming to Stark Industries for help absolutely disproves that he was already at war with Tony, or sought out "revenge" for an imagined slight from 13 years ago.

As to your point about Killian being a "fake," too: what *is* your point?

A line "it was always me" is too grand to only be placed on the time span of IM3, note that it all happened during christmas. Not that I even needed to point that out since the line already in very obvious cliched fashion implied that he always was the big bad behind the scenes (whether he knew or not at the time of IM1 that the afganistan branch of the ten rings had captured Tony). While I have an actual argument, you are just saying "well you might as well be wrong" without explaining what you base this on

Also, Killian coming to ask help from Stark doesn't disprove anything, it contradicts. The concept of Killian being the big bad behind the scenes was slapped on without thinking of the consequences and what it would contradict

and the point about Killian being a fake: Your theory was that Killian realized he could revive the semi-fallen terrorist group "the ten rings" so he could use them as a scapegoat for the accidental explosions. In that case Killian is a fake Mandarin in spirit because his motivations of leading this terrorist organisation are the following: scapegoating explosions and later profit from a self-made war. He made up the Mandarin persona to disguise his own persona thus he could lead the group

So the Mandarin persona is fake from the start. But later that persona takes human form in Kingsley's The Mandarin, so when you think about it, in spirit Ben Kingsley's Mandarin was always the leader of Ten Rings and not Killian at all. When he says "I AM the Mandarin" it would mean that he's the fake persona he created when he joined the Ten Rings. But he is not that persona at all, thus he can't say that he's the Mandarin

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Syndrome didn't want to be respected as a hero, he wanted to invalidate the very concept of the superhero as a personal FU to Mr. Incredible. Defeating the robot was just a means to gain notoriety with the public and setup that goal.

Killian did what he did to compel Tony to cooperate, not out of pure spite like with Syndrome and Mr. Incredible.

After his plans to fraudulently become a superhero and replace the supers that he had killed off were foiled by both the Incredibles and Frozone, Syndrome has his assets frozen along by the authorities with a warrant for his arrest. - So he did want to be a superhero t:
And yeah I kind of got this idea from HISHE but I totally agreed