Iron Man 3 The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

[Surfer]

I think expectations were lower back then. For my part, I was just thrilled by what they DID get right about Ras. better than almost any attempt at a comic villain outside of Spider-man 2 for me. Blame Loki if you want, because he's a hard bar to match and he's pretty spot on the spirit and many of the details of the character.

Killain just felt like a lesser creature that the guy I was expecting. I felt super Osama kind of missed the point also though. That being said , if I hasn't loathed the rest of the movie including the final fight scene, I might not care as much.

You make a very valid point about audiences expectations. Back when I saw X-men in the theater (in I believe it was 2000), I loved it because I was just so excited that we got the characters that I overlooked many of the changes they made from the comics. However, usher in the Marvel studio's age of movies several years later, where the origins of the characters seemed to be for the most part pretty close to their comic counter parts, at that point everything changed for me and my expectations changed with it. So, unfortunately if I had gotten Killian as the Mandarin (as his current representation as a business man / mad scientist character) back in the early 2000's I would have probably thought it was the best thing ever, but today I just feel with Killian we got only part of the package that should have been the Mandarin and that was not enough for me. Once again though, I am hopeful that moving forward if he is to reappear that they can use him with more of a warlord look to tie his look more to the comics. To me that would go a long way towards appeasing me, even though it might sound silly. I think it would be easy enough to explain that he goes into seclusion in the outskirts of a small town in Asia where he begins to master his extremis powers. There the people believe him a god and make him their ruler, and slowly he starts rebuilding his army.

Anyways, that is what I would like to see if Killian was to return, but hey I know I am just one person and they are going to do whatever they think the general public wants to see, so really I am just venting.

Surfer

 

[metaphysician]

Pepper killed him? Nah, he probably escaped, it's not difficult to explain, he just survive a suit explosions mortality and an explosions 10 times bigger than that.

Actually, I agree with this, though I don't think he "escaped" so much as "eventually, he managed to regrow his body." If they wanted him to return, they totally could have him return.

Doesn't change my main point, though, about the strain of reaction.

 

[The_Manhunter]

See my problem with Killian as the Mandarin is mostly about his costume and to a smaller degree his powers. Now, I know it is superficial (as a characters personality and traits have more relationship to who a character is then these other attributes), and in this way Killian did seem similar to the Mandarin from the comics, but I am an artist and I tend to be a very visual person. As a result I felt Ben Kingsley's look (pre Trevor) felt like more of the Warlord character I see the Mandarin to be in the comics. Even the image you provided above (while not really in robes) still has that Warlord impression, and while the Mandarin did wear a suit and tie in some of his incarnations in the comics, I always felt those versions did little to separate him visually as a character, as a suit and tie just seems so predictable, boring and very unimaginative. Now I realize the image above also shows a Dragon tattoo, that one could suggest ties Killian's Mandarin to the character, but to me that still does not do enough to convey the Warlord look of the character, that I personally feel best describes the Mandarin visually. As for the Powers from the rings, I would have loved to see them working (I won't lie), but I was prepared to accept them as a symbol that connected Ben Kingsley's Mandarin pre Trevor to Iron Man 1, as he still looked very Mandarin-ish with his warlord type costume. He also seemed to be very much in control and very strategic, which we later learn was not Ben Kingsley's doing, but Guy Pearce's, but before the twist he seemed to have some of those inner Mandarin traits as well. So anyways, as I have said before I am not necessarily against Killian being the Mandarin, but I just hope if they use him moving forward that they can give him more of a Warlord look to tie him more visually into the comics and maybe show him gaining more control of the Extremis virus so that he can conduct various types of powers from his hands instead of just fire. Although, I would equally be okay with the idea some other people have had about Killian learning about the Mandarin as a legend and took the name for himself and fashioned Ben Kingsley's character after what he thought the Mandarin would look like, and only to find out the Mandarin is real and unhappy with the incompetence of Killian and his lackey's. I guess for me I am just not completely satisfied with how things are at the moment, but I feel Marvel can still correct these things moving forward in a variety of ways without destroying the events that unfold within the Iron Man 3 movie. But, I guess we will see what happens.

Surfer

This is my dream storyline for IM4. It really doesn't crap on IM3, Killain can still be "Mandarin." But there is also "The Mandarin," a Batman-like legend.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Barf

 

[Victarion]

You know what? I like the Mandarin now. I think people are getting hung up on the twist and missing the brilliance of having Tony alone and isolated at a time of the year that's associated with friendly and familial gatherings. I haven't seen anyone mentioning the fact that it's a normal guy from Tony's pre-Avengers past that caused him the most grief rather than some intergalactic beasties. Well played on Black's part.

 

[Lord]

Incompetence? Killian almost killed Tony, almost killed and replaced the president and caused multiple acts of terrorism and bombings

 

[TheHeatKitchen]

You know what? I like the Mandarin now. I think people are getting hung up on the twist and missing the brilliance of having Tony alone and isolated at a time of the year that's associated with friendly and familial gatherings. I haven't seen anyone mentioning the fact that it's a normal guy from Tony's pre-Avengers past that caused him the most grief rather than some intergalactic beasties. Well played on Black's part.

Ok... But what does that have to do with the Mandarin? You changed the subject. They could have still done ALL of that as well as they did if the Mandarin was portrayed as we were led to believe in the trailers. Or if he had alien rings. Or if he was the owner of a car dealership. The fact that Tony was alone at Christmas had nothing to do with the character of the Mandarin.

 

[Lord]

A guy named Mandarin isn't racista at all.

 

[Victarion]

Ok... But what does that have to do with the Mandarin? You changed the subject. They could have still done ALL of that as well as they did if the Mandarin was portrayed as we were led to believe in the trailers. Or if he had alien rings. Or if he was the owner of a car dealership. The fact that Tony was alone at Christmas had nothing to do with the character of the Mandarin.

So a Mandarin with alien rings would still create a situation where the threat to Tony didn't come from an unearthly source?

 

[TheHeatKitchen]

So a Mandarin with alien rings would still create a situation where the threat to Tony didn't come from an unearthly source?

Fine, lose the alien rings. But the point is the the dynamic of his lonely struggles has nothing to do with Mandarin's character. The twist and Tony's Christmas time problems aren't related.

 

[metaphysician]

Incompetence? Killian almost killed Tony, almost killed and replaced the president and caused multiple acts of terrorism and bombings

After having both built himself a superhuman army, and remade himself into a rather monstrously powerful supervillain.

 

[Surfer]

After having both built himself a superhuman army, and remade himself into a rather monstrously powerful supervillain.

I see where you guys are going with the whole incompetence thing, by showing what Killian achieved you hope to show that he was competent, but to a true Villain looking on he would way Killian's competence only with the successful destruction of his enemy, and since he failed to do this he is therefore incompetent.

Surfer

 

[metaphysician]

I see where you guys are going with the whole incompetence thing, by showing what Killian achieved you hope to show that he was competent, but to a true Villain looking on he would way Killian's competence only with the successful destruction of his enemy, and since he failed to do this he is therefore incompetent.

Surfer

 

[Surfer]

I am absolutely serious. I am not saying if there was to be another incarnation of the Mandarin that he would have any better success himself with beating Iron Man, but he would believe himself a superior Villain and looking on at the situation (ego in tact), he would believe Killian's attempts and failure to be incompetence, and that if he himself were to have taken on Iron Man he would not have lost. The truth is irrelevant it is only about his perception, and that is how I think he would perceive it. Although, it is most likely a moot point, since it probably will not happen, but still I keep my hopes up for something moving forward that will enhance the way I see the Mandarin as a character in Iron Man 3.

Surfer

 

[Lord]

In that case every single villain we'll see in these films is painfully incompetent, because no matter how many times they try, the heroes will allways win, even if they can win a battle, they will lose the war.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

I see where you guys are going with the whole incompetence thing, by showing what Killian achieved you hope to show that he was competent, but to a true Villain looking on he would way Killian's competence only with the successful destruction of his enemy, and since he failed to do this he is therefore incompetent.

Surfer

Serious question, have you ever seen a superhero movie? The only time that a villain ever won was TDK.

 

[Victarion]

So the Mandarin failed to stop a scientific genius with access to extremely futuristic tech...yeah, he's pretty inept.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Don't forget the whole fact that he had everyone in the world duped about his identity, and got away with a hell of alot of stuff for a majority of the movie.

 

[Surfer]

In that case every single villain we'll see in these films is painfully incompetent, because no matter how many times they try, the heroes will allways win, even if they can win a battle, they will lose the war.

True, but it is generally their belief they will be the exception going into the battle, and they think where others have failed they will succeed. I mean competence is having the ablitlity and qualifications to perform the job. What is the job in this case? Kill Iron Man / Destroy Tony Stark right. So, did Killian successfully perform this job? No, he did not therefore he could be easily viewed as incompetent, especially by someone that believes themself superior.

Serious question, have you ever seen a superhero movie? The only time that a villain ever won was TDK.

Yes, I have seen many super hero movies, and your right villains don't generally win. However, this is not about whether I believe Killian to be competent after losing, but instead it is about whether or not another Villian would believe Killian to be competent after losing. I mean I see it all the time in movies and television shows where some thug goes back to report to his boss that he did everything he could do to complete the mission, but the boss doesn't care he just views it as incompetence and puts a bullet in his skull because he was not successful. I mean nothing to me says this is a character you don't mess with more then when a Villian starts killing other villians. I know it worked well for the Joker in the Dark Knight.

So the Mandarin failed to stop a scientific genius with access to extremely futuristic tech...yeah, he's pretty inept.

Once again, it doesn't matter what I think, it matters only what a Villain (that believes he is superior) would think, and I feel he would see himself succeeding where others have failed. I mean sure in the end he would also fall to Tony's genius and tech, but up to that point he would view others that have tried and failed as being inept, because he is going to be the one to successfully destroy him (or so he thinks).

Don't forget the whole fact that he had everyone in the world duped about his identity, and got away with a hell of alot of stuff for a majority of the movie.

Yes Killian got away with a lot, and was able to achieve many things, but ultimately in the end he was not successful at completing the one job that mattered to him most, of destroying Iron Man / Tony Stark. Therefore again to a new Incarnation of the Mandarin (if there was to be such a thing), he would view it as Killian's Incompetence and or ineptness that lead him to failure and that he will not fall to Iron Man like Killian did because he believes he possesses the qualities and abilities necessary to get the job done of Destroying Iron Man / Tony Stark. So, where Killian failed he will succeed.

Once again it doesn't matter what the truth is, it is all about what the character percieves to be the truth.

Surfer

 

[metaphysician]

Surfer, just stop. Your definition of "competence" is absolutely insane and irrelevant to anything actually meaningful to this discussion.

 

[Surfer]

Surfer, just stop. Your definition of "competence" is absolutely insane and irrelevant to anything actually meaningful to this discussion.

Sorry, you disagree with my use of the word "competence", as you have made it clear by the "Your definition" that you feel it is my take, version or opinion of the word. So, while some others might agree with you, I still don't appreciate you suggesting my opinion is insane, irrelevant and has no meaning to the discussion, just because you disagree with me. I realize this is a forum and I don't expect people to agree with my thoughts all of the time, but I do expect them to be respectful to me as I try to be with them.

So, as a token of respect towards you I will now stop, but please be polite to me as I come here to join in on the fun, and sometimes for me that means debating about a character, but at no time do I wish to argue or fight with others.

So, I wish you well, and appreciate you considering what I am saying.

Thanks!

Surfer

 

[MrMaooz]

I swear. Once you know the twist, the "serious" scenes with Kingsley are pretty funny!

 

[Steamteck]

A guy named Mandarin isn't racista at all.

Actually he's no more racist than a English character called the Earl or the Viscount or a Scottish character called the Chieftain. ( which as a Scot I'd have no problem with)Its a frickin name of a historical type of Noble. if that sort of thing offends people, They just want to be offended.

Even if its a now reviled title, he's a villain!!!

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

wow, i'm surprised at how close the love and the hate are

 

[Dagenspear]

I swear. Once you know the twist, the "serious" scenes with Kingsley are pretty funny!

Eh. More like a little disappointing.