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Discussion in 'Ant-Man' started by jaqua99, Oct 26, 2012.
Hank smash! t:
Wrights original concept for the film for those that missed it
possible, if unlikely, solution: flashbacks show Pym shrink into the microverse; where time, conveniently, progresses at a slower rate. he finds his way back to the present when Lang starts actively using the stolen pym particles.
I *really* like that idea. The theory could be that everyone just assumed Pym had died, or at least mysteriously vanished, all those years ago. And in the modern era, Lang, by finding Pym's gadgets, shrinks down and discovers that Pym has been alive all along, just trapped in the "microverse."
And, pipe-dreaming here: if there's any justice in the MCU world at all, Joss will admit that Pym actually created Ultron in the past when he was still "alive," and we'll get a follow-up/continuation of the Ultron story in Ant-Man.
I definitely think Pym will have a big role in Ultron's creation.
Not so much to say that he created outright created Ultron, but enough where he'll feel guilty over what happens.
That much would make sense with Wright's comments saying Pym has a redemptive arc in Ant-Man.
My theory is that he, and Simon Williams, created the technology, and Tony used it to create JARVIS and Ultron, the latter of which being put on ice..... until now.
The trapped in the mircoverse worked in the comics with Janet and I would take that over old man Pym. Its a better idea than my Pym makes and takes the infinity formula and disappears or is kidnapped.
The only problem I could see Marvel having with the trapped in the microverse idea is that when Pym gets out he is going to be another man out of time which might be too similar to Steve Rogers.
You could also easily say Pym and Tony worked on a basic AI together back in college. Tony developed it later on into Jarvis while Pym went off to focus on bio-chemistry.
To *some* extent, that story mirrors Cap's, but only marginally. In Pym's case, the differences would be that Pym isn't likely to be a well-known historical icon like Cap, and that Pym was, in fact, still active and alive all these years....just operating in what is essentially another universe. And it also leaves open the likelihood that Pym was continuing his research while he was shrunk, so you can legitimately OP him and make his knowledge/control over Pym Particles absolutely uber over the course of several decades.
exactly. sets up Giant-Man, at least. because, realistically, Pym would have to test his giant-man formula at some point. and it would draw attention. but not if he weren't in this dimension. plus, survivalist training would be implied; not too different than Ray Palmer's time in the jungle.
If time slows for Pym when he is small it will slow for everyone making things really wonky. Obvious plot hole is obvious.
durrrr. time slows in the microverse. Pym ages normally when he returns to the real world.
Come on man. Ever heard of quantum physics man? Quantum physics, yeah, that's the ticket.
You don't even have to use wonky pseudo/superhero science to explain it. General relativity actually breaks down at a subatomic level, so you'd be using *real* science to explain why Hank Pym would not age (or at least he'd age verrrrry slowly) in a theoretical microverse.
Are you making the microverse a place where stuff happens or are you sticking to some true bit of science? Before you go about explaining how time in the microverse works, you should define what the microverse is. Are you sticking to the comics microverse or are you making it some whole new thing so you can lazily shoehorn a youngish Pym into the story you want to make but that won't be made?
Allow me to plead some ignorance as I do not read the comics. I just read up a little on what the microverse is and it is nothing like what you guys are trying to make it. (So much for staying true to the comics, right?)
My first comment should have read "If time slows for Pym when he is small it will slow for everyone else who goes small including Pym the next time he goes small making things really wonky." However, after reading, the microverse is different than simply "going small." But now I have a question, what happens to Pym while he is sitting in the microverse? What cool thing happens that makes it worthwhile to spend the time to explain what it is and how it affects the plot of the film?
Personally, I think the film will stay away from microverses and slowing time. Your problems lie with Marvel and Edgar Wright not making the characters how you want them necessitating these ideas that we will never see on film. Good luck.
It could lead to multiple personas... things happening out of order, or at the same time (being in two places at once almost, like an electron), seeing all the versions of Pym's personas/the users of the Pym particles. Chance and freewill could be important to timelines. A decision not to be a hero, on Pym's part, at first... With time manipulation we can see things out of order and we could maybe see other personas first.. Rapid cycling through Pym's personalities... Maybe Prof Elias Weems (aka the Time Master) could be the bad guy in charge of the past, along with Egghead. Weems has the ability to reverse the aging process... Or speed it up, if need be.
We've already heard that Pym and Lang will team up in the present... I really think Pym is a traveler of space and time, more than it being about the microverse specifically.. Pym would basically slip through the cracks in-between dimensions and could end up moving through any, or a few, of the dimensions that are between time and space if something like this is the case... He could disappear from this reality for a while, and return at a point in the future from an alternate dimension that's not the microverse but a different time/space altogether like the negative zone that then leads him to other in-between dimensions... (meaning Stark had to be tricked into doing a lot of the creation of Ultron in his absence from the timeline). This could lead to the negative zone as well as Limbo (Immortus's castle mainly), or some of the other dimensions that are semi-free of time.
The whole negative zone thing might bring about a lot of other things later. After they stop using whatever prison they're using for villains right now.
Basically I think Pym goes on a very long trip through many different dimensions, through many different shapes and sizes and masks, and time/space travels to the present to team up with Lang against Equinox, Whirlwind, and others. Lang gets tricked into working for them to steal vibranium. Some of the villains would be loosely connected to AIM, and Weems is an unofficial Master, the Time Master. who had Pym looking for a way to get Red Skull back from where he was sent to in time/space when Pym discovers a subatomic particle.
Maybe Pym was forced into a very small time loop of some sort by the villains in a similar way to what Cherokee is describing, but this fractures Pym's psyches and makes him into more of a Yellowjacket persona... After being trapped in the ant farm that he never made it out of in this timeline... Gets trapped in his small state within the ant-farm and decides to go even smaller to the size a subatomic particle to be able to crawl around through the fabric of space-time. Bringing some of the ants with him into the timeloop within the grains of sand of the Antfarm... Most rocks are actually made up of empty space, it's just that the spaces between the matter are so hard to see and the atoms are moving around so fast that you wouldn't be able to pass through a rock unless you shrank down to the proper size/time/dimension...
Basically Pym cycles through many lifetimes within this timeloop within an antfarm -- he starts to be in two places at once when he shrinks himself down past the size of electrons... Had to choose to fight the ants with what he had at the time, by shrinking them smaller (because he gets trapped in the antfarm in a different way, and doesn't have enough time to figure out how to get big, Ultron has manipulated this himself in some ways after surviving age of ultron with some time manipulation, and is existing in multiple timelines as well..). Ultron tried to kill his own creator, but he had to trap Pym at a certain point in time to continually re-create himself with the timeloop... ultron is his own creator in some ways now, tried to take Pym out of the equation... Pym loses his mind because of the time/space disorientation, dying a few times, and having only one very altered Pym make it out of the timeloop... In this timeline things happen a little differently because of chance and freewill, Pym never wanted to be a hero... but it's his destiny in the timeline in some way, shape , or form.
He gets trapped in the timeloop and is unable to figure out a way to get bigger at this point in time... So he doesn't become Giant Man. He develops a ray that can shrink the ants down into another dimension and into the negative zone. Pym's mind becomes fractured by the time travel and there is no more Pym, he becomes Yellowjacket...
There is no AntMan Pym for a long time, Pym goes on the biggest journey/character arc of the series and travels to many corners of the universe... Becomes Yellowjacket right off the bat, loses the Pym persona and all that's left is Yellowjacket. Yellowjacket chose to fight the ants, and inspires Wasps costume.
Because of chance and freewill, and a decision not to be a hero, Pym would lose his mind and ironically becomes even more of a hero as Yellowjacket. Yellowjacket then skips through many dimensions and helps Lang in the present before gaining some of his identity as Pym back... Then he finally learns how to become bigger, and becomes Giant Man while Lang is still Ant Man....
Absurd and nonsensical. Other than that, LokiD, you hit the nail on the head.
I don't know, I think this movie will be more than just Honey I shrunk the Kids with an edge. If Pym is involved, then they'll probably explore the microverse in some way. Perhaps Pym is the only one with the capacity to actually shrink into the microverse. For example, if it's seen as an impossibility at first, but then Pym figures out a way to do it and suddenly disappears into the microverse. That way he's gone for however long is needed for the story while SHIELD keeps his equipment left behind. Making way for Lang who steals the equipment from SHIELD and uses it for his needs. Pym is finally able to escape the microverse and comes back in present time to find Lang has stolen his things and become the new Ant-Man. And the rest happens, etc. Something like that just works for me, because Pym can stay his young age in the current time after being gone for years.
Didn't Edgar Wright say that this will be a heist/spy film? That'd be a cool way to introduce the character to a GA.
It *is* a heist. It's "To Steal An Ant-Man." Scott Lang is the professional thief, and he steals the suit from Pym, or whoever's got Pym's stuff nowadays. Pym's role is what we know next to nothing about, other than he's apparently active in the 1960s.
I do wonder just how much the script was rewritten in order to fit it into the MCU, and if that effected the overall plot in any significant way?
"There's not a lot we have to do to fit it into the other movies, which is good" -Wright
there's good and bad in it. a link to the other movies would help it, imo. could be as simple as Jasper Sitwell (or a younger Nick Fury) appearing.
I really like the idea of Pym stuck in the micro verse, then brought back to ours unaged.
Same here. Especially if Wright is absolutely married to the idea of setting Pym's back story in the 60's.
The only problem there is the similarity to Cap, as others have mentioned. His defining characteristic can't be that he's displaced in time.
Unless part of his being stuck in the microverse is he's aware of the ongoing universe while stuck there and unable to communicate. That way he wouldn't be so out of place/time.