The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

[Travesty]

I love BTAS.

 

[The Endless]

I thought Keaton's Batman, although more quiet and collected, was much more intimidating than Bale's.

If someone was staring at me like Keaton's Batman and then someone was screaming and shouting like Bale's Batman, I know who i'd be more afraid of. Although in Begins Bale had more of a hiss going on, which was pretty effective.

 

[CountOrlok]

Keaton had a bit of a twisted/psycho thing going on which made his Batman a lot more effective as someone who would scare criminals.

 

[Rodrigo90]

That is pretty creepy lol

He's smiling because Jack said
"Nice outfit"

At least that's what we think he's smiling at, you just never know! Because in the next shot he's gone, then the next he's back again, looking all serious and intimidating again after Jack shoots Eckhart.

That smile was a little out of character for Bruce/Batman, but it makes you think he's slightly more unhinged than he lets on.
Same with the little girl he rescued in the deleted scenes. Of course he's smiling to a child when she's commenting on his appearance.
But smiling, teeth slightly showing, to a murderous criminal when he remarks on his appearance? That's really creepy and I'm still not sure to this day what was going on his head to make that happen lol

The only time Joker makes Batman smile

 

[The Endless]

He should be unhinged. At the end of the day, here's a guy who watched his parents get gunned down as a kid. Grew up and became so obsessed with fighting crime he devoted his entire life to being a vigilante who dresses up like a bat to frighten criminals. There is nothing sane about Bruce Wayne in my eyes.

I never got that with Nolan/Bales Batman. I love the physicality of their version. But he's just some really angry guy. I never got the impression he was utterly obsessed and compelled to be Batman because of the tragedy of his parents death. Hell, outside of Begins it's not even really touched on.

 

[The Joker]

He should be unhinged. At the end of the day, here's a guy who watched his parents get gunned down as a kid. Grew up and became so obsessed with fighting crime he devoted his entire life to being a vigilante who dresses up like a bat to frighten criminals. There is nothing sane about Bruce Wayne in my eyes.

Define unhinged. BTAS Batman never came across as crazy or unhinged. Neither as Bruce Wayne or Batman. He never even had traumatic images and nightmares about bats like Bale's Batman did. Even Kilmer's Batman had that.

Is Peter Parker crazy because he chose a life as a masked vigilante to fight criminals in red and blue spandex? I never bought that Bruce Wayne was unhinged or crazy. Emotionally troubled definitely. But not unhinged or insane.

I don't see people like Alfred and Gordon backing a nut case, even if he had noble intentions. I don't associate Batman with creepy grins and always being so calm and collected. Batman's an emotional character. He sometimes shows it. Even BTAS got that:

He even tore Harley a new one for pressing a Batmobile button lol: [YT]-AHa6VI5Uvw[/YT]

I never got that with Nolan/Bales Batman. I love the physicality of their version. But he's just some really angry guy. I never got the impression he was utterly obsessed and compelled to be Batman because of the tragedy of his parents death. Hell, outside of Begins it's not even really touched on.

I never got it from Burton's either outside of Batman '89 (I think the main reason it's in Batman '89 is because it's tied to the Joker). They never touch on Bruce's parents' death affecting him in Batman Returns either. They didn't talk about the death of his parents in every episode of BTAS. In fact you could count on one hand how many times his parents death was brought up in that show. In TDKR you at least see photos of his parents in Wayne Manor, his father's stethoscope, his mother's pearls, he even wears his father's dressing gown.

I don't think there's so much as a photo of Bruce's parents in Wayne Manor in Burton's that I can recall. Even when Vicki asks him why he has to be Batman, his answer is because nobody else can, and that it's not a perfect world. He doesn't even mention his parents.

 

[The Endless]

The Animated Series is like the comics in the sense that it had multiple episodes. Bruce's parents death isn't mentioned in every comic, so it shouldn't be in every episode. And obviously BTAS is a family friendly show aired when kids come home from school. Having the protagonist an unhinged obsessive vigilante was never going to fly.

But the point is, the ONLY reason Bruce becomes and more importantly perhaps, STAYS Batman, is because he is driven by his parents death. That he has become obsessed with keeping their city clean. It's his crusade. He's not so much insane, but completely obsessed with his crusade. He's compelled, there is no escape from it. This is how i view Batman and it's what makes him compelling and unique for me. He can't be compared to Spidey because he was given superpowers. He just chose to use them for good and out of a sense of responsibility. Bruce Wayne? He wasn't gifted anything. He became so obsessed with fighting crime he went out and travelled the world seeking the skills and knowledge, physically and mentally, to become basically a crime fighting machine.

Batman Returns does bring up the issue with his parents, that is the essence of his duality with the Penguin. They are both orphans. But the thing with Burton's films is, once the final credits roll in Returns, you can imagine Batman never stopping until his final breath. With Nolan's films? He's in Italy with a woman he barely knows who betrayed him and left him for dead.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

I think once it is established, there isn't a need to bring up why he is Batman in following stories. Do we really want to hear in every movie, "But my parents, Alfred!" Unless they add something new to it, it's just "MY PARENTS ARE DEAAAAAAAAAD!"

 

[The Joker]

The Animated Series is like the comics in the sense that it had multiple episodes. Bruce's parents death isn't mentioned in every comic, so it shouldn't be in every episode.

You're missing the point. There is never a huge emphasis on his parents' death, even in the small handful of episodes it is brought up. Mask of the Phantasm is the one that places most emphasis on what his parents' death means to him to becoming Batman, and even then he was totally prepared to break that promise and live a normal married happy life with Andrea.

If she had not run out on him he would have.

But the point is, the ONLY reason Bruce becomes and more importantly perhaps, STAYS Batman, is because he is driven by his parents death. That he has become obsessed with keeping their city clean. It's his crusade. He's not so much insane, but completely obsessed with his crusade. He's compelled, there is no escape from it. This is how i view Batman and it's what makes him compelling and unique for me. He can't be compared to Spidey because he was given superpowers. He just chose to use them for good and out of a sense of responsibility. Bruce Wayne? He wasn't gifted anything. He became so obsessed with fighting crime he went out and travelled the world seeking the skills and knowledge, physically and mentally, to become basically a crime fighting machine.

There's no difference there. Just because Peter has powers doesn't mean he has to use them to fight crime. In fact his initial intention was to use them to make money. It's the death of Uncle Ben that changes that. He chooses to adopt a life as Spider-Man, even when it totally wrecks his personal life and makes him utterly miserable.

His choice. Just like it's Bruce's choice to be Batman. That doesn't make them unhinged or insane.

Batman Returns does bring up the issue with his parents, that is the essence of his duality with the Penguin. They are both orphans.

That has nothing to do with how the death of his parents is affecting him.

But the thing with Burton's films is, once the final credits roll in Returns, you can imagine Batman never stopping until his final breath. With Nolan's films? He's in Italy with a woman he barely knows who betrayed him and left him for dead.

I'm not a big fan of The Dark Knight Rises' ending, but even I have to jump to it's defense there. For a start Selina not only came back and saved his life, but she risked her own life to help him save the city when she could have left. I think it's safe to say she proved herself as a good person and trustworthy.

It would be more accurate to say Keaton's Bruce was more foolish to rip his mask off in front of Max Schreck for a woman who beat him up, blows up department stores, and teamed up with the Penguin to frame him.

 

[The Endless]

Obviously his parents death shouldn't be mentioned every episode, or comic or film. But at the same time that is the essence of the character. You should always have this sense that he will never give up, that he is a deeply troubled person. And the reason for that is because as a young child he watched his parents get brutally murdered. Doesn't need to be mentioned, but it should always be there beneath the surface, in the eyes. That's why i prefer Keaton's portrayal. It's all in the eyes.

 

[Indy Flash]

My 80s crush as a three year old was Vicki vale.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

I am saving this for future use.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

Batman: "You're tearing me apart, Selina!!!"

 

[Travesty]

Oh hai, Alfred!

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

Anyway, how's your sex life?

 

[Bat Attack]

I just watched this film last night, I had forgotten how much I loved it. This is my first time posting here on these forums in four years by the way hahaha!

 

[milost]

Define unhinged. BTAS Batman never came across as crazy or unhinged.
I don't see people like Alfred and Gordon backing a nut case, even if he had noble intentions. I don't associate Batman with creepy grins and always being so calm and collected. Batman's an emotional character. He sometimes shows it. Even BTAS got that:

Define unhinged. BTAS Batman never came across as crazy or unhinged. Neither as Bruce Wayne or Batman.

Hallucinations, sure, but still depictions of Bruce's personal hell. His sanity comes into question several times. He was willing to take the chance of committing suicide to escape a world in which he isn't Batman (pretty deep for an animated cartoon). Robin and Alfred have all questioned whether he's nuts (I Am the Night comes to mind). He thinks his parents are actually talking to him in Mask of Phantasm at their graveside, forcing him to take on his vow.


Just because someone might be crazy, unhinged or obsessively driven doesn't make them any less heroic. The question of Batman being just as crazy as the villains he brings in has always been a staple of the character.

"The truth is, you created him."

 

[The Shape]

I love Bruce's response to Vicki asking why he has to be Batman. "Because nobody else can." Just so badass and so 'Batman', if you get what I mean. Had Keaton every said something along the lines of "My parents were murdered in cold blood and I vowed to protect the innocent from the scum of the underworld"...it just wouldn't have worked.

No, Keaton's Bruce never mentioned his parents but I love that he never had to speak those words. We, the viewers, were able to follow the mystery of Bruce's past as Vicki did. Living alone with Alfred in a huge mansion that wasn't "him". Lying about his plans so he could leave roses in a desolate alley. Seeing the newspaper clipping about the Wayne murders with a photo of a young Bruce slapped on the front page. And finally, Bruce sitting alone in his cave reading the case file, contemplative, thinking back to the night that changed him forever and made him the man he came to be.

Ugh, I just love this film so much LOL. I could go on and on about it. And the great thing is, I feel almost the same about The Dark Knight! Two wildly different Batman films that just absolutely captured the complete essence of the character and his world.

 

[The Joker]

Spoiler

They're not creepy grins. He's full on smiling there.

Oh come on, milost, that's from the episode 'Dreams in Darkness' where he was under the influence of Scarecrow's fear gas, crashed his Batmobile outside Arkham because of it, and they locked him up in there because he was ranting and raving like a lunatic because of the fear gas hallucinations he was seeing.

Hallucinations, sure, but still depictions of Bruce's personal hell.

That's what fear toxin does. Brings out everyone's personal hell. Their worst fears.

His sanity comes into question several times. He was willing to take the chance of committing suicide to escape a world in which he isn't Batman (pretty deep for an animated cartoon).

Because he was positive he was in a dream after trying to read books and newspapers and seeing the print made no sense, because you can't read in a dream. It's a different part of your brain.

Robin and Alfred have all questioned whether he's nuts (I Am the Night comes to mind).

Quote the lines where either of them question his sanity.

He thinks his parents are actually talking to him in Mask of Phantasm at their graveside, forcing him to take on his vow.

Not once in MOTP did he think his parents were talking to him.

Just because someone might be crazy, unhinged or obsessively driven doesn't make them any less heroic. The question of Batman being just as crazy as the villains he brings in has always been a staple of the character.

Only outsiders who don't know him question if he's as crazy as the villains. Not the people who know the man under the mask.

"I think the Batman deserves a medal"
"And a straightjacket to pin it on"

"The truth is, you created him."

Yeah, the criminals of Gotham. They're the reason why he's there. To fight them and their kind. That's what she meant.

 

[milost]

Nope, the one with Batman and Rupert Thorne is creepy.

That lack of stability is what made the BTAS interrogations so great (two of those screen grabs are lifted from interrogations). Is Batman crazy? Depends on which version. You said, "BTAS Batman never came across as crazy or unhinged. Neither as Bruce Wayne or Batman", I gave examples of where he might being coming across as one. Personally, I don't think BTAS Batman is crazy (or Keaton Batman for that matter) perse, but they are extremely driven.

"A fanatic is someone who redoubles his efforts while losing sight of his goal."



And he does think his parents are talking to him in Mask of the Phantasm, undeniably.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjAFbEP0wK4


[YT]TjAFbEP0wK4[/YT]

He's LITERALLY responding to them. Begging and pleading with them not to do this. Falling down to his knees and crying.

Like I said though, nothing wrong with that.

 

[The Joker]

Nope, the one with Batman and Rupert Thorne is creepy.

Not to me. It looks cocky and mischievous. Not creepy.

That lack of stability is what made the BTAS interrogations so great (two of those screen grabs are lifted from interrogations). Is Batman crazy? Depends on which version. You said, "BTAS Batman never came across as crazy or unhinged. Neither as Bruce Wayne or Batman", I gave examples of where he might being coming across as one. Personally, I don't think BTAS Batman is crazy (or Keaton Batman for that matter) perse, but they are extremely driven.

But milost you and I both know Batman is putting on a scary act to frighten the criminals. Like when he drops them off buildings and then catches them. We know he's not going to kill them. He'd never do that. It's all an act.

If he comes across as sane and rational to the criminals they're not going to be scared of him. They have to believe he's nuts and would really seriously hurt or kill them if pushed..

"A fanatic is someone who redoubles his efforts while losing sight of his goal."

Batman never loses sight of his goal.

And he does think his parents are talking to him in Mask of the Phantasm, undeniably.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjAFbEP0wK4

[YT]TjAFbEP0wK4[/YT]

He's LITERALLY responding to them. Begging and pleading with them not to do this. Falling down to his knees and crying.

Oh come on you don't really think he was actually expecting his parents to answer him there, do you? It's no different to people who talk to their loved ones at their graves all the time.

My Mum does it when she visits my little brother's grave.

 

[milost]

Oh come on you don't really think he was actually expecting his parents to answer him there, do you? It's no different to people who talk to their loved ones at their graves all the time.

My Mum does it when she visits my little brother's grave.

We all do, but do our loved ones ever answer back? Nope.


"It doesn't mean I don't care anymore. I don't want to let you down, honest, but... but it just doesn't hurt so bad anymore. You can understand that, can't you? . . . . Look, I can give money to the city to hire more cops. Let's someone else take the risk, it's different now! PLEASE!"


Hell Joker, look at the lightning and thunder. Every time he pauses after his questions or looks to abandon the vow, we see the storm as their "response". I'm not going to resort to "oh c'mon, it's right there", but that's clearly the intent of the scene. He's begging and pleading WITH HIS PARENTS (not himself) and "they're" answering him in his head. It's there, I'm not imagining it. As for other people, other than the villains thinking Batman is nuts? How about Superman in those episodes or Worlds Finest? How about Nightwing who thinks Bruce's obsession has gone too far (he thinks he's controlling everything and everyone like a madman, which he does kind of do). It's not just the outsiders that thinks he's bonkers , ("that nut in Gotham City").

By Beyond, Bruce even refers to himself in his head as Batman. I wouldn't be so sure to write off sanity or insanity, the writers are playing with something there. This is one of the reasons that Batman is so great. And for the record, again, I don't think this Batman is crazy really. That's my take on it. With that said though, he has come off as unhinged or crazy. Which was the argument here.

 

[The Joker]

We all do, but do our loved ones ever answer back? Nope.

I sincerely hope not lol!

"It doesn't mean I don't care anymore. I don't want to let you down, honest, but... but it just doesn't hurt so bad anymore. You can understand that, can't you? . . . . Look, I can give money to the city to hire more cops. Let's someone else take the risk, it's different now! PLEASE!"


Hell Joker, look at the lightning and thunder. Every time he pauses after his questions or looks to abandon the vow, we see the storm as their "response".

It's all for dramatic effect and atmosphere, milost. Notice the storm quietens when Andrea shows up and comforts him. It's just to suit the tone of the scene.

I'm not going to resort to "oh c'mon, it's right there", but that's clearly the intent of the scene. He's begging and pleading WITH HIS PARENTS (not himself) and "they're" answering him in his head. It's there, I'm not imagining it.

People hypothetically imagine what their loved ones might say when they're talking to them at their graves. It's human nature. Not insanity.

As for other people, other than the villains thinking Batman is nuts? How about Superman in those episodes or Worlds Finest?

What about him? He said "I heard you were crazy. I didn't think you were stupid, too". That was when he first met Batman, and didn't know him, or the man under the mask.

How about Nightwing who thinks Bruce's obsession has gone too far (he thinks he's controlling everything and everyone like a madman, which he does kind of do).

What episode was this?

Outsiders even thinks he's bonkers , (""that nut in Gotham City").

Like who?

By Beyond, Bruce even refers to himself in his head as Batman. I wouldn't be so sure to write off sanity or insanity, the writers are playing with something there. This is one of the reasons that Batman is so great.

"This is my gift. My curse. Who am I? I'm Spider-Man"

Peter Parker's internal monologue to himself. Thinking of himself as Spider-Man in his mind doesn't make him crazy any more than it does Batman.

 

[milost]

I love Bruce's response to Vicki asking why he has to be Batman. "Because nobody else can." Just so badass and so 'Batman', if you get what I mean. Had Keaton every said something along the lines of "My parents were murdered in cold blood and I vowed to protect the innocent from the scum of the underworld"...it just wouldn't have worked.

No, Keaton's Bruce never mentioned his parents but I love that he never had to speak those words. We, the viewers, were able to follow the mystery of Bruce's past as Vicki did. Living alone with Alfred in a huge mansion that wasn't "him". Lying about his plans so he could leave roses in a desolate alley. Seeing the newspaper clipping about the Wayne murders with a photo of a young Bruce slapped on the front page. And finally, Bruce sitting alone in his cave reading the case file, contemplative, thinking back to the night that changed him forever and made him the man he came to be.

Agreed.

This says everything you really need to know,

Pictures are worth a thousand words and all that. I also like how that concept of pictures is used in the film. Vicki is following Bruce around, taking photos of him, trying to learn more about him. Joker is has Bob on reconnaissance missions, trying to learn more about everyone, including Vicki. Then there's Batman/Bruce, pouring over the Jack Napier file and later, his own parents file.