The Official Blue Beetle Thread

[SonOfCthulhu]

So after 2 issues of BB it seems very clear that the book will be marketed toward a much younger male hispanic audience. I'm not opposed to that, if the stories and art are good. So far the the artwork is unique and fantastic. The story, however, is lacking some refinement.

In both the past and future story settings, our new Blue Beetle has no clear grasp on how to use his powers. The suit is on autopilot, taking Jamie with it. While this may get us the necessary 4-7 pages of action poses necessary for this to still be considered a superhero book, it doesn't do to much in the way of developing our leading man as anything other than a puppet on the end of the scarab's strings. Using the "Deus Ex Machina" bag of tricks twice now is diminishing Jamie to the background of his own series. It would be better if Jamie was show to exhibit more control over the suit.

The family storyline works. The rat pack of enemies that make up the Posse are interesting. Sadly the question of alien tech or magic aspect of the scarb powers is being dealt with too slowly. At this pace, we'll be at issue 12 before we know what is up with the suit. Maybe that's what Keith has planned, but I really hope not. By then I think that many readers will have moved on to other titles.

Still miss Ted and the Wein/Cullins days...

 

[warren_sparta27]

i think it's been great so far, the first time i've read a Blue Beetle story, apart from the death of Ted and BB become one of my fav characters.

i was thinking maybe he could get training from someone, Teen Titans? Booster etc.

 

[drastic_quench]

So after 2 issues of BB it seems very clear that the book will be marketed toward a much younger male hispanic audience.

That's about the stupidest and most one dimensional conclusion you could come to. So by your logic Batman is marketed to the white billionaire b.a.s.e.-jumping/spelunking crowd?

 

[GoldenAgeHero]

i agree with sonof , DC did order a mandate to introduce new minority characters. aka asian atom, hispanic BB. etc.

 

[Tropico]

Riiiiight, because Milestone didn't teach them anything. I've yet to see anything that makes this particular to a hispanic setting. Are you telling me that it's incredibly uncommon for non-hispanics to live the same life Jaime does? I'm continually surprised at how people immediately pigeon hole something because of the ethnicity/race of the characters. Let me guess; WW, Manhunter, Supergirl, Batgirl and Birds of Prey are "chick" comics because their main character is female? Oh! Wait! Batgirl was aimed at young ASIAN women, sorry for that oversight!

I get all your other "praise" for the book as long as I overlook that you meant in in spite of the audience you perceive it was geared towards.

 

[SonOfCthulhu]

That's about the stupidest and most one dimensional conclusion you could come to. So by your logic Batman is marketed to the white billionaire b.a.s.e.-jumping/spelunking crowd?

So you don't believe that when DC sat down and drew up the character design for a new Blue Beetle, they didn't decide on purpose to make him a hispanic character?

I'm not arguing with that as business decision. It's a very smart move. Hispanics are a huge part of the population demographic. They are an under-represented minority when it comes to super heroes. Specifically super heroes that have a their own title publication. And the specific art design of the book is similar to Teen Titans funneled through Mike Mignola's Atlantis and Road to El Dorado. It's very clean, sacrificing realism for a comfortable cartoony feel. The look comes off as "young", "hip" and "street."

I didn't imply any of this was bad or negative. If you got that impression, I'm sorry. It's just the old BB was a middle-aged white guy who was super smart and had a penchant for one-liners. I could identify with him because I'm a older-than-middle-aged white guy who would love to be super smart and witty. So I can connect with that character very easily.

But so far the new BB doesn't really thrill me. I don't care to step back into being a teenager again unless the writers really do something impressive with them (say like Ultimate Spiderman). And Jamie appears to be a follower at this point, doing whatever the suit tells him. It's also making me think this book will only survive based upon art and shrewd product placement (tapping an under-served market segment). That's just my opinion.

Either way I'm in for a couple more issues before I make the drop decision on it.

 

[GoldenAgeHero]

Riiiiight, because Milestone didn't teach them anything. I've yet to see anything that makes this particular to a hispanic setting. Are you telling me that it's incredibly uncommon for non-hispanics to live the same life Jaime does? I'm continually surprised at how people immediately pigeon hole something because of the ethnicity/race of the characters. Let me guess; WW, Manhunter, Supergirl, Batgirl and Birds of Prey are "chick" comics because their main character is female? Oh! Wait! Batgirl was aimed at young ASIAN women, sorry for that oversight!

I get all your other "praise" for the book as long as I overlook that you meant in in spite of the audience you perceive it was geared towards.

\
can you honestly tell me that the book isnt geared towards them? to say" he are new superhero is hispanic, check it out" thats exactly what dc is doing.

 

[SonOfCthulhu]

Riiiiight, because Milestone didn't teach them anything. I've yet to see anything that makes this particular to a hispanic setting. Are you telling me that it's incredibly uncommon for non-hispanics to live the same life Jaime does? I'm continually surprised at how people immediately pigeon hole something because of the ethnicity/race of the characters. Let me guess; WW, Manhunter, Supergirl, Batgirl and Birds of Prey are "chick" comics because their main character is female? Oh! Wait! Batgirl was aimed at young ASIAN women, sorry for that oversight!

I get all your other "praise" for the book as long as I overlook that you meant in in spite of the audience you perceive it was geared towards.

So you think that Giffen/DC didn't decide to make this a hispanic character by choice? That they have a big wheel or something that decides ethicity? We need a new Robin - Let's spin for race!

 

[drastic_quench]

So you think that Giffen/DC didn't decide to make this a hispanic character by choice?

What does that even mean? As if white characters were created white by accident. Of course it was a conscious decision - but no more than deciding what the new costume would look like. I don't think the art is particulary "street". If anything it looks a lot like Invincible.

When they start to print this book in Spanish, then I'll concede that DC is targeting Latinos. Until then, save it. It's ridiculous. It's like saying Swamp Thing is geared toward folks who live on the bayou.

 

[Tropico]

See, you guys can't get over the character's ethnicity/race. I guess it couldn't be that the creators wanted to be...CREATIVE and not go with the cookie cutter caucasian superhero. I forgot that it's Marvel that's cracked up to be more realistic than DC (I don't agree with that statement, though) and DC couldn't have opted to go for a more realistic feel. You know, since one of you mentioned that there's an increase in minorities in the real world maybe they should reflect that in their comics even though it's DC.

Since you people are making all these questions as if I'm being unrealistic, look at this way. What in Jaime's story so far has been exclusive to a hispanic? Ok, apart from the part with the "slang" word which is something the writer got wrong, btw. Are you people seriously telling me that if he was called Chris and was caucasian that this story wouldn't be the same?

And, really, trying to use the "getting the minorities" statement? They have a bigger audience to catch with the established typically white fan base and more to lose by trying to hook the minority fan base. I've already seen how people have ridiculed the comic BEFORE it even came out just because the protagonist is hispanic. Now that it's certain that the character IS hispanic it alienates: 1)Those that can't get past ethnicity/race to relate to a character's STORY, 2)"Diehard" BB fans who are pissed off 'cause it's not Ted, his brother or Booster, 3)Hispanics that are under the misconception that the book will be catered to them and drop the book when they realize it isn't. I think that you're under the misconception that BB comes into the fray with an established fan base and DC would only have to gain by expanding into the minorities. White+Hispanics=Lotsa fans and mucho dinero, right? The thing is that the equation is wrong, those are NOT the factors DC comes into this book and I'm sure they are more aware of it than me and you. Like I said, they already have Milestone as a failed "experiment" and I don't even want to tell you what an incredible $h!+storm Firestorm raised in the begining.

It's your prerrogative if you still want to think that DC stands more to gain by making the character hispanic. I disagree completely with that stance from the stuff I've already seen, though.

 

[Tropico]

So you think that Giffen/DC didn't decide to make this a hispanic character by choice? That they have a big wheel or something that decides ethicity? We need a new Robin - Let's spin for race!

No, I think they DID make the character Hispanic by choice, but not for the same reasons you do. To say that the character is aimed at young hispanic males because the character is a teenager and hispanic is like saying that Wonder Woman is aimed at older Greek women or the defunct Batgirl was aimed at young Asian women. Of course, you're not going to see it that way because your statement is right and mine is wrong, right? If Giffen says (in an interview I read) that he told all the stories he wanted with the old BB and he wanted to do something new with the character, I believe him. I've seen very little of his work that I don't like so he still has my trust.

 

[SonOfCthulhu]

What does that even mean? As if white characters were created white by accident. Of course it was a conscious decision - but no more than deciding what the new costume would look like. I don't think the art is particulary "street". If anything it looks a lot like Invincible.

When they start to print this book in Spanish, then I'll concede that DC is targeting Latinos. Until then, save it. It's ridiculous. It's like saying Swamp Thing is geared toward folks who live on the bayou.

I don't know what Invincible looks like. I'll look for it next time I'm in my comics shop to see if I agree.

But I stand by my statement. Look at the first group he fights (outside of the OMACs and our favorite GL) called "The Posse". They look like they just stepped out of the barrio. Two guys are wearing muscle-Ts and the brick in the group is wearing a plaid shirt with only the top button closed. They look straight out of an Edward James Olmos flick.

Why not have him go up against the Madmen or Dr. Alchemy or some other old BB enemy?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I did notice the dudes he was fighting in the last issue were pretty blatant ethnic stereotypes. Still, nothing about Jaime himself, outside of his name, the luchadore-inspired mask, and the occasional bit of Spanish tossed into the dialogue, seems distinctly hispanic to me. If Tim Drake happened upon the scarab instead of becoming Robin, I imagine his story would've been pretty much the same.

 

[SonOfCthulhu]

No, I think they DID make the character Hispanic by choice, but not for the same reasons you do. To say that the character is aimed at young hispanic males because the character is a teenager and hispanic is like saying that Wonder Woman is aimed at older Greek women or the defunct Batgirl was aimed at young Asian women. Of course, you're not going to see it that way because your statement is right and mine is wrong, right? If Giffen says (in an interview I read) that he told all the stories he wanted with the old BB and he wanted to do something new with the character, I believe him. I've seen very little of his work that I don't like so he still has my trust.

I haven't seen an article where Giffen stated that. Can you link me to it. The only one I've seen is this one:
http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=50609
where he "knew Ted was dying," meaning that DC didn't have a place in their lineup for a Kord/Beetle anymore. Heck, he was still pumping out BB's stuff in the second Justice League comeback mini when Ted was killed of in IC.

I take the Kord/Beetle comment to mean DC looking around and seeing an aging, mostly male, mostly white superhero lineup and not being able to fit in a title like the one I hold in my hand.

And again I think it's a great business decision, I just don't like the book that much.

 

[SonOfCthulhu]

I did notice the dudes he was fighting in the last issue were pretty blatant ethnic stereotypes. Still, nothing about Jaime himself, outside of his name, the luchadore-inspired mask, and the occasional bit of Spanish tossed into the dialogue, seems distinctly hispanic to me. If Tim Drake happened upon the scarab instead of becoming Robin, I imagine his story would've been pretty much the same.

Thank you for making my point for me.

It's really a good thing that hispanic kids will have a character to look up to. I just wish they hadn't killed Ted to do it.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Ethnic stereotypes have appeared in every comic, from Superman to the X-Men. Those other elements are just surface details; the core of the character is the same, standard teenage superhero stuff that was perfected with Spider-Man decades ago. It's accessible to everybody, regardless of a few quirks, so I don't see how the book is aimed at hispanic people specifically. I'm not hispanic and I can relate to it and enjoy it just fine. By your definition, Batman is aimed at rich caucasian men, Batgirl is aimed at young Asian women, Green Lantern Corps is aimed at caucasian Irish-Americans, and Superman is aimed at extraterrestrials.

 

[Tropico]

It's really a good thing that hispanic kids will have a character to look up to. I just wish they hadn't killed Ted to do it.

It's good to see you show your true colors. Even meant as a joke your post comes off as extremely racist. Hispanic kids can look up to Superman, Batman, Spiderman or any other hero without them having to be hispanic. I hope you know that and were just trying to be mean spirited in your post.

Your last statement is one I've seen pop up a lot and attribute to bitterness. I mean, I certainly don't want to read it as "we had to kill a white hero so a hispanic one would have a chance"; cause that would just be wrong, right?

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Blue Beetle's not bad so far. Keepin' me interested at least.

 

[SonOfCthulhu]

It's good to see you show your true colors. Even meant as a joke your post comes off as extremely racist. Hispanic kids can look up to Superman, Batman, Spiderman or any other hero without them having to be hispanic. I hope you know that and were just trying to be mean spirited in your post.

Your last statement is one I've seen pop up a lot and attribute to bitterness. I mean, I certainly don't want to read it as "we had to kill a white hero so a hispanic one would have a chance"; cause that would just be wrong, right?

You're funny, because I'm the farthest thing from a racist. And I never said that a Hispanic teenager couldn't look up to Superman, etc, so anytime you want to stop calling me names and putting words in my mouth...

DC is a company that is out to make a profit. Making the new BB a member of one of the fastest growing ethnic groups in America would make a lot of sense from a corporate stand point.

And I don't like seeing a character that I did like very much get offed just to be replaced by a non-descript character that after two issues still has the personality of a 2 X 4. If Giffen had come out swinging with something that blew my socks off, I wouldn't care if the character was lime-green with yellow poka-dots. As it is, Jamie is a bland individual that doesn't stand out except as the stereotype that he is perpetuating. I see it more as DC decided to kill off a character that they couldn't market correctly.

 

[SonOfCthulhu]

Ethnic stereotypes have appeared in every comic, from Superman to the X-Men. Those other elements are just surface details; the core of the character is the same, standard teenage superhero stuff that was perfected with Spider-Man decades ago. It's accessible to everybody, regardless of a few quirks, so I don't see how the book is aimed at hispanic people specifically. I'm not hispanic and I can relate to it and enjoy it just fine. By your definition, Batman is aimed at rich caucasian men, Batgirl is aimed at young Asian women, Green Lantern Corps is aimed at caucasian Irish-Americans, and Superman is aimed at extraterrestrials.

Superman was raised as a poor white farmboy who finds out he comes from another planet. He is drawn as a caucasian. Not that this is my argument, but I'd say he fits into a caucasian mold for purposes of your question.

More to the point of what you are asking though, do you think at the time Batman and Superman were created it would have been possible to market or sell them as anything other than caucasian superheros?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I didn't ask a question, I just provided some examples that a character's race and/or ethnicity doesn't mean that they're necessarily marketed specifically to readers of the same. But no, I doubt Batman or Superman would've succeeded if they weren't white males. Of course, the world in general, and especially the US, was a lot different in the '30s.

As it is, Jamie is a bland individual that doesn't stand out except as the stereotype that he is perpetuating.

What stereotypes is Jaime perpetuating? I haven't found anything stereotypical of him beyond the teenage woes common to all adolescents, regardless of race, gender, or ethnicity. He's about two steps shy of being about as hispanic as Kyle Rayner, really.

 

[Tropico]

You're funny, because I'm the farthest thing from a racist. And I never said that a Hispanic teenager couldn't look up to Superman, etc, so anytime you want to stop calling me names and putting words in my mouth...

Ok, I don't agree with you, but ok.

DC is a company that is out to make a profit. Making the new BB a member of one of the fastest growing ethnic groups in America would make a lot of sense from a corporate stand point.

I already posted how DC is actually hurting itself instead of "gaining" a broader market with their decision. But, hey, it's just my opinion like yours.

And I don't like seeing a character that I did like very much get offed just to be replaced by a non-descript character that after two issues still has the personality of a 2 X 4. If Giffen had come out swinging with something that blew my socks off, I wouldn't care if the character was lime-green with yellow poka-dots. As it is, Jamie is a bland individual that doesn't stand out except as the stereotype that he is perpetuating. I see it more as DC decided to kill off a character that they couldn't market correctly.

The same happened to me with Firestorm when they replaced Ronnie, who wasn't even dead, with Jason. The writer had also expressed that he didn't care what the previous Firestorm fans thought or felt. What did I do? Not buy the comic. I only started buying it when Ronnie came back. The series is pretty good and I realize that if I hadn't been that angry at the begining maybe I would have given it more of a chance in the begining. I've gone back and read the first issues and admit that they're still not to my taste. Jason came off more as a thug than a hero. I won't go the road of saying that it's because of how black teenagers act because I can't say that it's true. I've read a lot of the comments from the fans of the series and most of them say that it's about a young man coming to terms with being a hero and that it took a while for him to reach that level.

I AM older than many of those people and realize that my view of what should be a hero is different. A hero should be a hero from the start, right? Well, apparently a lot more people than I thought like a hero to struggle at first (and it took quite a few issues for Jason!), it makes it more identifiable according to them. I never quite got what I wanted, though; Ronnie back as Firestorm and I know it will never happen. But the current one is pretty cool and I'm glad I gave it a chance.

 

[Tropico]

What stereotypes is Jaime perpetuating? I haven't found anything stereotypical of him beyond the teenage woes common to all adolescents, regardless of race, gender, or ethnicity. He's about two steps shy of being about as hispanic as Kyle Rayner, really.

I'd like to know that as well, although I can guess what they are from what a lot of Americans stereotype Hispanics as in America.

 

[Anubis]

Hardworking and family oriented? Because that's pretty much all I got from the character and his family. Terrible thing to be stereotyped as. I wish they would do that type of stereotyping for black characters.

 

[WormyT]

yeah, I'm not enjoying it so i've stopped collecting it after 2 issues. The art, the story doesn't even compell me to read it. I've not even read the second half of teh second issue.
but I love the costume design.