The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Part 3

[Godzilla2014]

Has anybody ever noticed how many scenes Spider-Man 2 has of people talking out loud by themselves? Ock's conversation with himself in the pier? Peter asking "why is this happening?" Peter asking "am I not supposed to have what I want?" while staring longingly out the window?

I think Spider-Man 2 is the most well-crafted of the entire trilogy, but I liked how scenes in the first movie, like Peter realizing that the spider bite gave him powers and that he can crawl up walls, are sold entirely by the music and the looks on Tobey Maguire's face.

I love both, just a nitpicky observation.

Interesting observation. I never noticed that, personally.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

I have an interesting what-if question for Spider-Man 3: What if the symbiote chose to bond with Harry Obsorn (or attempted to) in lieu of Eddie Brock after Peter Parker rejected it?

Ehhh, I wwouldn't like that idea, lol.

 

[The Joker]

Has anybody ever noticed how many scenes Spider-Man 2 has of people talking out loud by themselves? Ock's conversation with himself in the pier? Peter asking "why is this happening?" Peter asking "am I not supposed to have what I want?" while staring longingly out the window?

I think Spider-Man 2 is the most well-crafted of the entire trilogy, but I liked how scenes in the first movie, like Peter realizing that the spider bite gave him powers and that he can crawl up walls, are sold entirely by the music and the looks on Tobey Maguire's face.

I love both, just a nitpicky observation.

Technically Ock wasn't talking to himself for most of that. He was actually talking to the A.I. When you compare that to the conversations Norman had with himself, Norman talked to himself more.

You also had Goblin saying to himself "No one says no to me". Or Peter's "Shazam, fly, up up and away web" sayings to get get his web to go etc.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Ehhh, I wwouldn't like that idea, lol.

I wouldn't either, but I was trying to think of how I would fix Spider-Man 3, and I thought of the following:

• The role Eddie Brock plays in the story of Spider-Man 3 is much like Harry Osborn in Spider-Man 2 and Spider-Man 3: the unreasonable, revenge-obsessed person who wants Spider-Man dead. They gain knowledge of Spider-Man's identity and power and hunt him down.
• Harry Osborn, by the start of the film, already had the qualities needed for the symbiote's host as Venom. Eddie Brock's motivations just wouldn't have the time in a single film to be developed as well as Harry's were over the course of three films.
• I don't think that Venom would work as well for the main villain in Spider-Man 4, since he would be doing a lot of the same things as Harry did as New "Goblin" in Spider-Man 3.
• I have a hard time seeing how to make the climax work without shifting the focus away from the rivalry between Harry and Peter if Harry makes a heel-face turn to help Peter defeat Venom.
• And really, is combining characters that bad? After all, it was a speciality of The Spectacular Spider-Man, one of the most acclaimed incarnations of the Spider-Man mythos in recent history.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

I have an interesting what-if question for Spider-Man 3: What if the symbiote chose to bond with Harry Obsorn (or attempted to) in lieu of Eddie Brock after Peter Parker rejected it?

................

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

^^ This, lol.

 

[Gunga Diner]

I wouldn't either, but I was trying to think of how I would fix Spider-Man 3, and I thought of the following:

• The role Eddie Brock plays in the story of Spider-Man 3 is much like Harry Osborn in Spider-Man 2 and Spider-Man 3: the unreasonable, revenge-obsessed person who wants Spider-Man dead. They gain knowledge of Spider-Man's identity and power and hunt him down.
• Harry Osborn, by the start of the film, already had the qualities needed for the symbiote's host as Venom. Eddie Brock's motivations just wouldn't have the time in a single film to be developed as well as Harry's were over the course of three films.
• I don't think that Venom would work as well for the main villain in Spider-Man 4, since he would be doing a lot of the same things as Harry did as New "Goblin" in Spider-Man 3.
• I have a hard time seeing how to make the climax work without shifting the focus away from the rivalry between Harry and Peter if Harry makes a heel-face turn to help Peter defeat Venom.
• And really, is combining characters that bad? After all, it was a speciality of The Spectacular Spider-Man, one of the most acclaimed incarnations of the Spider-Man mythos in recent history.

I suggested this a few months ago, the reaction was like I suggested all the hype members organize an assassination attempt on Stan Lee.

I think it would be a really interesting concept and would have been more economical (Eddie Brock and the Symbiote story weigh down the whole movie, honestly.) but you pointed out the main reason it doesn't work. Harry and Peter have to team up at the end to defeat a common threat to complete the arc.

 

[Godzilla2014]

I suggested this a few months ago, the reaction was like I suggested all the hype members organize an assassination attempt on Stan Lee.

I think it would be a really interesting concept and would have been more economical (Eddie Brock and the Symbiote story weigh down the whole movie, honestly.) but you pointed out the main reason it doesn't work. Harry and Peter have to team up at the end to defeat a common threat to complete the arc.

True, I guess one could have had both Mary Jane and Peter talk to Harry about what happened to his father, and then Harry comes to realize that it was Norman's desire for revenge above his own life was his undoing, and Peter is in no way responsible. Even if Peter had not dodged the glider, Norman would still have been impaled. Then Harry has a good reason to change.

That's something I think the film should have done. The blade his father was impaled on coming from his own glider doesn't say anything about how it happened. From what we saw of Harry prior to that moment, I think he would have assumed that Spider-Man stabbed Norman with it.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Anybody remember this interivew? I sure do. The game, IMO, is definitely underrated. As good as the S-M2 game? No, but still very enjoyable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aglZpDP2FQ&feature=related

 

[Godzilla2014]

................

The basic question is: How would the events of the film change if Harry Osborn had become Venom instead of Eddie Brock?

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

But it wouldn't really make much sense, lol.

 

[Godzilla2014]

But it wouldn't really make much sense, lol.

What doesn't make sense about it?

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Well, if you look at it in the sense of faithfulness. I mean, the Symbiote going with Harry would be different than what was expected.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Well, if you look at it in the sense of faithfulness. I mean, the Symbiote going with Harry would be different than what was expected.

True. I'm not saying that Spider-Man 3 should have had Harry become Venom. I'm just saying it could have worked. He was already doing some of the same things as Venom did in his initial appearances, like ambushing Peter Parker, before the symbiote even shows up in the movie. In this scenario, Harry is still New "Goblin" at the start of the film. He continues to be New Goblin until Peter rejects the symbiote and removes it at the church.

Then the symbiote finds Harry and offers him Peter's powers and memories. Harry accepts, and the symbiote joins with him to become Venom. You get Harry's revenge AND Venom in one package.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Well, as a "What If?" story, it definitely would have been interesting.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Well, as a "What If?" story, it definitely would have been interesting.

Indeed. I wonder if Harry would still use his technology or just cast it aside and use the power of the symbiote?

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

I think he'd actually have a combination of both. It really does rile up some awesome ideas if you think about it.

 

[Godzilla2014]

I think he'd actually have a combination of both. It really does rile up some awesome ideas if you think about it.

Like Venom on a Goblin Glider? I wonder if Harry's appearance as Venom would be different from Brock's?

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

^^ Yeah, a combination of the two.

 

[Godzilla2014]

^^ Yeah, a combination of the two.

Do you think Harry would incorporate goblin features into his appearance as Venom?

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Hmmmm, not sure. I think there could be a difference in the face, but still. I think the overall difference would be with the weapons, , glider, and voice overall. However, I would see the look changing a bit.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Hmmmm, not sure. I think there could be a difference in the face, but still. I think the overall difference would be with the weapons, , glider, and voice overall. However, I would see the look changing a bit.

Agreed.

 

[Vid Electricz]

Anybody remember this interivew? I sure do. The game, IMO, is definitely underrated. As good as the S-M2 game? No, but still very enjoyable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aglZpDP2FQ&feature=related

Hey, I saw this video on the side-bar of the one you posted and I thought this was incredible.

I hate, hate, hate the fact that they had to shove so many villains into SM3. The stuff Topher is talking about in this interview, Eddie Brock's strong exterior versus his weak interior as a mirror to Parker and Brock being a "Talented Mr. Ripley" type character is all genius. None of this was used or explored whatsoever though.

It makes me sad just knowing what a great film this COULD have been. My personal solution would be:

-Take Sandman out of the film completely. He is the weakest and most uninteresting character. The dynamic between Peter and Eddie and their fall from grace would have been amazing.

-I know it's been slagged off time and time again, but show the symbiote affecting Parker is more violent, aggressive ways. They REALLY did a poor job of this in the movie. It was played for laughs which makes the audience unable to take it seriously at all.


*sigh*...This could have been a brilliant movie that I'd enjoy watching over and over again like the first two. Almost 5 years later and I still can't believe it...

http://youtu.be/-XKhcVjRu2Y


Edit: My actual final solution would be to get Avi Arad out of there and let Sam do his thing, get Alvin Sargent back, writing a stronger script more in the scope of SM2 and get Danny Elfman back composing some new music in the vein of what he did for SM1 and 2. That would be my perfect end to the trilogy.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Agreed.

On that note, I wonder if the spider on the front/back would have changed?

 

[Godzilla2014]

On that note, I wonder if the spider on the front/back would have changed?

Good question.

Interesting note on the idea of Harry Osborn being Venom: I've noticed a few renditions of the Spider-Man mythos (USM, TSSM) have Eddie Brock as Peter's best friend, who becomes soured on their friendship, and becomes his enemy. So he has a similar dynamic with Spider-Man to Harry as the second Green Goblin, only he's a far more terrifying villain, because while Harry is ultimately only the Green Goblin because he wants to live up to his father's legacy, Eddie Brock is Venom because he wants to be. He's also a more competent foe, and far deadlier.