The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Part 7

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Nonsense. X-men was nothing but a furthering of The Matrix style of film. Simple Black suits, people with powers that had no origins and the main guy (Wolverine) was a kung-fu master with attached blades. It paid little to no heed to the comics.

Spider-Man worked from the source material. Gave him an origin, gave him a comic book style villain (X-men didn't have the courage to hire someone of the right age for Magneto or to suit him up in his comic style armor), AN ACCURATE COSTUME and comic style battle scenes. Spidey 1 and all of the Raimi films had problems but it was definitely a new threshold for comic book movies. And the Effects were groundbreaking. You wouldn't have the Avengers if Spidey hadn't been made.

I strongly disagree with your views on X-Men. It may have taken visual cues from the Matrix, but it also paved the way for comic films to be taken seriously and deal with actual themes of social prejudice. There's a lot of comic book material in the film, including an origin (for Magneto) but you must understand that X-Men is a far more complex thing to adapt to film than Spider-man was.

I've never seen Ian McKellen's casting described as a lack of courage before in my life.


Yah....because it's not like films like Batman Begins or Casino Royale had no effect in reboots or anything or has given any inspiration of such.

And Aziz mentioned it already, but X-MEN changed the face of CBMs, not Spider-Man. People seem to always forget that Bryan Singer is the one that really brought CBMs to life and Sam Raimi only went on for the ride in bringing back Spidey. If anything, Spider-Man shouldn't be the one on the list, X-Men should.

I agree about X-Men, but I don't about Begins. It didn't do anything to further comics on-screen. Reboots are hardly something to marvel at, and certainly weren't new at the time either.




97. Star Trek VI: The undiscovered country
64. Sin City
53. The Truman Show
48. Batman Begins
44. Kick-Ass
24. Star Trek (2009)
15. The Fifth Element
14. Inception

These films shouldn't even be on this list. That they included Star Trek VI and didn't include III & IV at all says there's something really wrong here.

And hell- I'd even say that as horrible as the Transformers films are, they expanded the genre more than any of these.


Truman Show is my favourite film so I'm happy to see it up there.

Star Trek and Inception are only there because they're recent.
 
I agree about X-Men, but I don't about Begins. It didn't do anything to further comics on-screen. Reboots are hardly something to marvel at, and certainly weren't new at the time either.

TAS-M, The Incredible Hulk, Man of Steel, Star Trek, Planet of the Apes...the directors/writers/etc. have all acknowledged that their inspiration is partly for what Nolan did with the Batman franchise by giving it some new and unique life.
 
I strongly disagree with your views on X-Men. It may have taken visual cues from the Matrix, but it also paved the way for comic films to be taken seriously and deal with actual themes of social prejudice. There's a lot of comic book material in the film, including an origin (for Magneto) but you must understand that X-Men is a far more complex thing to adapt to film than Spider-man was.

I've never seen Ian McKellen's casting described as a lack of courage before in my life.




I agree about X-Men, but I don't about Begins. It didn't do anything to further comics on-screen. Reboots are hardly something to marvel at, and certainly weren't new at the time either.







Truman Show is my favourite film so I'm happy to see it up there.

Star Trek and Inception are only there because they're recent.

Actually it was Batman '89 that got comic films being taken seriously. Up until then every comic book film was approached as being a comedy (See the 80's Spider-Man script or early concepts for Batman). X-men only put Marvel films on the map and even in that case only after Blade's success.

Like I said, X-men didn't take the chances that Spider-Man did. If Spidey had been as cowardly as X-men, he'd have at best been in the black suit and maybe fought the Kingpin or other uncostumed type of villain. X-men made use of elements from the comics but watered all of them down. Again, I think X-men and X2 were certainly good, enjoyable movies, but they did nothing to move the comic book film genre or sci-fi fantasy genres forward.

As far as McKellan. Yes, he's a great actor. But he's not right for Magneto. Michael Fassbender was a far better choice even though First Class still was too tame (I actually neglected to include First Class on my list of what should've been excluded). Fox in general is simply a poor studio for producing comic movies (Note the Fantastic Four debacle, or their squeamishness about the Sentinels).

That list is supposed to be the top 100 fantasy/sci-fi films of all time. Not the top 100 comic films, which I'd agree X-men belongs on. There are so many movies that deserve to be on that list simply because of innovations- Where's Poltergeist? Where's The Howling? Where's Nightmare on Elm Street? Star Terk III and IV? Even for recent films Ironman is more deserving than many of the films listed. And which Body Snatcher's movie are they talking about? There's been about 4 of them. Why not Goldfinger considering the impact that Bond films have had on the sci-fi fantasy genre?

This list is again, bull**** reflecting voters with short memories or little film knowledge at all.
 
TAS-M, The Incredible Hulk, Man of Steel, Star Trek, Planet of the Apes...the directors/writers/etc. have all acknowledged that their inspiration is partly for what Nolan did with the Batman franchise by giving it some new and unique life.

Of course a successful reboot would be inspiration for other reboots. Doesn't mean it was a significant step forward for the medium though.

Actually it was Batman '89 that got comic films being taken seriously. Up until then every comic book film was approached as being a comedy (See the 80's Spider-Man script or early concepts for Batman). X-men only put Marvel films on the map and even in that case only after Blade's success.

Like I said, X-men didn't take the chances that Spider-Man did. If Spidey had been as cowardly as X-men, he'd have at best been in the black suit and maybe fought the Kingpin or other uncostumed type of villain. X-men made use of elements from the comics but watered all of them down. Again, I think X-men and X2 were certainly good, enjoyable movies, but they did nothing to move the comic book film genre or sci-fi fantasy genres forward.

As far as McKellan. Yes, he's a great actor. But he's not right for Magneto. Michael Fassbender was a far better choice even though First Class still was too tame (I actually neglected to include First Class on my list of what should've been excluded). Fox in general is simply a poor studio for producing comic movies (Note the Fantastic Four debacle, or their squeamishness about the Sentinels).

The Batman that Burton started devolved into the campy mess that all but killed comic book adaptations. X-Men may not have been the first to take things seriously, but it led the second wave which is significant. Blade preceded it, but that is a fringe character and not the risk or success that X-Men was.

It also was the first comic book film to touch on weighty themes in my opinion. Batman '89 was good but it wasn't exactly rich in social commentary.

I'm not discrediting anything Spider-Man did. It was a big step in comic book film history.
 
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Of course a successful reboot would be inspiration for other reboots. Doesn't mean it was a significant step forward for the medium though.

It was when we got some pretty great reboots that tried to be more than the previous installments of their respected series.
 
X1 came before SM1 and was successful, yes. But what X1 started, SM1 perfected in terms of bankability. I have said many times in regard to X1, I just can't take the movie seriously because Magneto's plan is flat out, stupid.
 
The original Spider-man did get the ball rolling. Not only was it Marvel's greatest character getting his first film,but the amount of money it made,the records it set and the huge amount of attention the film recieved definetly put comic book films on the map for the new century. Spidey opened the doors for the flood of comic book films we've seen since 2002.
 
X1 came before SM1 and was successful, yes. But what X1 started, SM1 perfected in terms of bankability. I have said many times in regard to X1, I just can't take the movie seriously because Magneto's plan is flat out, stupid.

It was rare for a while to get a villain with a great plan though. I mean, can we really say Green Goblin had a great plan? Lol. It went from killing the board members, which he achieved, then wanting to team up with Spidey, or something about Spidey that got Gobby's attention. And that didn't make much sense at all.
 
actually Magneto's scheme made more sense to me than GG's. Magneto saw that humans hate and fear whats different than their own. So if you make all the world leaders mutants then the persecution will stop....think about it....if someone had a laser that turned people gay and hit the world leaders with it how soon would gay marriage be approved across the board?
 
Would those new gay people turn into water too?

THAT part of Magneto's plan seemed useless. He saw what happened to the senator and still wanted to turn everyone into mutants. It definitely seemed like it had to be something from birth and not just hit upon right there.
 
Technically Magneto did not see what happened to the Senator. He just saw that he was able to slip through the prison bars. He didn't see him disintegrate into liquid.

When the X-Men told him he didn't believe them. He thought they were trying to con him out of his plan.
 
Would those new gay people turn into water too?

THAT part of Magneto's plan seemed useless. He saw what happened to the senator and still wanted to turn everyone into mutants. It definitely seemed like it had to be something from birth and not just hit upon right there.

he didn't see what happened to the Senator...Storm told him and at that point anyone would have thought the X-men would say anything to get free.
The thing about Magneto is that he is about the short cut. He knows that at some point mutants will become the dominant species. He doesn't want to wait that long. He wants mutant dominance to happen now with him as the top mutant.
Magneto saw it worked on the Senator and didn't even think about the long term effects.
 
Oh....I thought the senator had a blue-like color of liquid when he went through the bars though, maybe not, haha.
 
Oh....I thought the senator had a blue-like color of liquid when he went through the bars though, maybe not, haha.

the senator at that time was adapting to survive his environment...squeezing between the bars...developing gills and fins in the water
 
Magneto bugs the hell out of me. I guess he's blinded by rage and anger,but how could a character be that dumb? Ok,so he was upset that the Nazis treated him and all jews like subhumans,that the only way to deal with him/them was through extermination. So,what's he do? He just adds to the hate and fails to learn the lesson's of history. Now that's he the more evolved species and the one with all the power,he uses it the same way the Nazis did.
I see the irony there,of course. But still?
 
Magneto bugs the hell out of me. I guess he's blinded by rage and anger,but how could a character be that dumb? Ok,so he was upset that the Nazis treated him and all jews like subhumans,that the only way to deal with him/them was through extermination. So,what's he do? He just adds to the hate and fails to learn the lesson's of history. Now that's he the more evolved species and the one with all the power,he uses it the same way the Nazis did.
I see the irony there,of course. But still?

That is Magneto. He has witnessed firsthand the evil of humanity and responded to it. He's a kill them before they kill us type. We (I use we from Magneto's point of view) tried to kill off the jews, we massacred and enslaved africans...what are we gonna do to a budding race thats the next step of evolution that will replace them?
 
actually Magneto's scheme made more sense to me than GG's. Magneto saw that humans hate and fear whats different than their own. So if you make all the world leaders mutants then the persecution will stop....think about it....if someone had a laser that turned people gay and hit the world leaders with it how soon would gay marriage be approved across the board?

It made more sense, yes. But, Green Goblin was basically a crazy lunatic, so you can excuse him not making sense. Magneto's plan was just silly. How was it any different than Grodd turning people into apes? It isn't. That and the film leans FAR too heavily in Wolverine's favor. But, ignoring that...I just can't take a movie with that silly plan, dialogue as bad as that Toad/lightning line, or some of the goofy side acting. Ian and Patrick are awesome. Hugh was good. But, the film itself is silly.
 
I don't find Magneto's plan silly...making everyone into 'us' so they won't hate us seems perfectly logical from someone who lived thru the holocaust
 
It was rare for a while to get a villain with a great plan though. I mean, can we really say Green Goblin had a great plan? Lol. It went from killing the board members, which he achieved, then wanting to team up with Spidey, or something about Spidey that got Gobby's attention. And that didn't make much sense at all.

Green Goblin didn't have a plan at all.

His thing was killing those board members. He accidentally meets Spider-man and then he wanna be friendies with him. That's it. Friends with Spider-man in order to do... what exactly? Who knows.


Spider-man 1 openeed doors in terms of money. But it was X-Men that set the style for Marvel movies.
 
The Green Goblin absolutely had a plan. The same plan that mobsters, corrupt politicians and dictators have. To achieve power and be free to follow their whimsy. He saw that Spider-Man was the only one who had a chance of stopping him and he figured, being of a power-crazed mindset, that anyone with Spider-Man's powers could also be corrupted. Especially once the Goblin pointed out to the "naive" Spider-Man that his desire to help the masses would ultimately backfire on him and that he'd suffer for it.

Having a plan doesn't have to involve achieving a specific end such as Magneto's. And BTW- Magneto's plan was silly, because he assumed that there'd somehow be world unity if everyone was a mutant, when there wasn't even unity of the few mutants that already existed. He and Professor X differed in their perspectives and were in combat because of it. If every human suddenly developed powers then they wouldn't all suddenly be of one mind. Many- many would follow their own selfish pursuits and still battle with others. Some would form their own factions and seek their own bases of power. The Star-bellied Sneetches would hate the Plain-bellied Sneetches. Little to nothing would change.
 
that doesn't make the plan silly...its just means Magneto was short sighted...which is a character trait of his.
 
The Green Goblin absolutely had a plan. The same plan that mobsters, corrupt politicians and dictators have. To achieve power and be free to follow their whimsy. He saw that Spider-Man was the only one who had a chance of stopping him and he figured, being of a power-crazed mindset, that anyone with Spider-Man's powers could also be corrupted. Especially once the Goblin pointed out to the "naive" Spider-Man that his desire to help the masses would ultimately backfire on him and that he'd suffer for it.

Having a plan doesn't have to involve achieving a specific end such as Magneto's. And BTW- Magneto's plan was silly, because he assumed that there'd somehow be world unity if everyone was a mutant, when there wasn't even unity of the few mutants that already existed. He and Professor X differed in their perspectives and were in combat because of it. If every human suddenly developed powers then they wouldn't all suddenly be of one mind. Many- many would follow their own selfish pursuits and still battle with others. Some would form their own factions and seek their own bases of power. The Star-bellied Sneetches would hate the Plain-bellied Sneetches. Little to nothing would change.

A plan does need to achieve a specific end. It could be a grand scheme or a little thing. But Goblin had no need nor purpose in acieving total power.

Other than killing the old guys, he never attacked anyone else, the major, president or whoever it is in order to achieve power. All he did was to become friends with Spidey. He didn't try to corrupt anyone, he just made an honest invitation.

Okay, that could be a plan, but maybe the weakest, most meaningless plans ever in a superhero movie.



Anyways, I agree with you about Batman 89. :)
And I also don't think Batman Begins was that great movie everyone talks about.
 
The Batman that Burton started devolved into the campy mess that all but killed comic book adaptations.

EVERY franchise devolved. Batman, Superman, X-Men, Spider-Man etc. etc. Batman's failures did nothing other than push the idea of the reboot. It isn't as if post X-men the same things didn't happen.


X-Men may not have been the first to take things seriously, but it led the second wave which is significant. Blade preceded it, but that is a fringe character and not the risk or success that X-Men was.

Blade may have been a fringe character in the comics, but Marvel made sure that everyone knew that it was their product on-screen. Again, X-men has done very little to present the comic book mythos. Most of the characters have little connection their their comic origins. Spider-Man did. His villains did. They were adapted, but the characters were who thery were in the comics.

It also was the first comic book film to touch on weighty themes in my opinion. Batman '89 was good but it wasn't exactly rich in social commentary.

X-men barely scratched the surface of social commentary. The mutants all lived separately in their various citadels and kicked the crap out of any humans in their paths. We didn't see mutants with non-combative abilities being bullied or forced to live in sub-standard ghettos or interment camps. Magneto's childhood experience was because of his being a Jew, not a mutant. And once it's made clear that he is a mutant, it begins to make no sense how he suffered under the Nazis. And First Class did nothing to clarify this BTW.

I'm not discrediting anything Spider-Man did. It was a big step in comic book film history.

It really was. Peter actually suffered more than the mutants in X-men. He was isolated before his powers and even after achieving his powers he continued to struggle alone (At least in 1 & 2). Again, Raimi took chances with Spidey that Fox refused to take with X-men. I maintain that Spidey did far more for the comic movie genre than X-men did. Especially considering that X-men had reigned for a good 20 years as the most popular comic book in the world, long-eclipsing Spidey.
 
A plan does need to achieve a specific end. It could be a grand scheme or a little thing. But Goblin had no need nor purpose in acieving total power.

Other than killing the old guys, he never attacked anyone else, the major, president or whoever it is in order to achieve power.

Are you kidding? The Goblin killed Slocum because he was going to transfer funding to Quest. That would have been a LOSS OF POWER for him and Oscorp.

And Norman says during the meeting that profits were up- Why do you think that was? Because he eliminated the competition.

All he did was to become friends with Spidey. He didn't try to corrupt anyone, he just made an honest invitation.

Dude, if you try to convince someone who is honest and forthright to do under-handed, criminal things- that is corrupting them. And his reaction to Peter's no wasn't that of someone making an honest invitation.

Okay, that could be a plan, but maybe the weakest, most meaningless plans ever in a superhero movie.

And trying to make the world love each other by turning them all into mutants makes sense?

Trying to achieve power and control is what most criminals do. See the Godfather, Scarface, Goodfellas, Casino, The Sopranos, JFK, etc. etc. They have no end to their plans. It's just continue to achieve power and wealth until they die.

Anyways, I agree with you about Batman 89. :)
And I also don't think Batman Begins was that great movie everyone talks about.

I just don't see anything great about Begins.
 
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