The Avengers The Official Rate/Review Thread for Marvel's The Avengers! (TAG SPOILERS!!!) - Part 2

[Infinity9999x]

Jaws is a story about various strands of a community coming together to deal with a crisis, and political conflicts arising as a result, with a lot of moral implications arising as people put more importance on money over human life, there is a lot involved in that tale.
edit: and as I was saying, I dare say those other movie's stories could be told verbally around a campfire, with the Avengers, no, it would not be a good story to tell verbally, it is a special effects, action based film, what there is of the story is there to prop that up.

The Avengers is about some meaningless magic cube that was dreamt up in order to get some fighters together to fight who fight each other then fight nameless faceless bad guys.
It is a punch up movie with some humour.

and to compare 'The Avengers' to 'Twelve Angry Men' is one of the most outlandish comparisons I have ever read in my life. I think Joss Whedon would have something to say about that as well.
That is like comparing Sesame street to The Wire.

edit: the actual one genuinely tense argument between the leads in avengers is caused/aggravated by a frickin 'magic staff', lol, the dramatic tension and arguments in 12 angry men is the ultimate boiling point of human interaction, caused by pressure and disagreements over the fate of a man's life. that is the real sh**. Let's get real here, what the hell are you guys talking about?! lol.

I would disagree with your assessment of Jaws. At it's core, the movie is not about the community coming together or people's value of money over human life. Those are side elements, but again, if that was the point of the movie, the climax would have dealt with those issues. We don't see the community banding together to defeat the shark in the climax. At it's core, Jaws is a simple thriller story with one man trying to stop the monster.

I never said that Avengers was on the same level as 12 Angry Men. I was saying it reminded me of that kind of story. Yes, I think 12 Angry Men is deeper, because that play is focused solely on the characters and the character interaction. It's a character study of 12 people. Avengers isn't as deep as that, but the core of the movie is seeing these people who normally would never interact forced to do so. That's the same basic premise of 12 Angry Men. Do I think Avengers delves as deeply into questions about the moral standards of people as 12 Angry Men? Of course not. I don't recall ever saying Avengers was on the same level as that play, so please don't jump to conclusions regarding that. I was simply using it as a reference.

And honestly, what is with everyone saying Avengers wouldn't be a good campfire story? Have you guys heard campfire stories? You know what they are mostly? Suspense, shock, and action! That's what verbal stories started out as! That's what storytelling started with. Just look at some of the stories in our culture that started out as being traditionally verbal. The Odyssey is a great example. That's basically the ancient example of a a special effects bonanza with tons of action. And it was told verbally before it was ever written down. You think people don't like hearing action stories around a campfire? Why do you think we have that old notion of the ancient men telling a story about killing a lion around a campfire? Because that's what actually happened way back when. People often told stories with lots of action. The Avengers would fit right in.

Again, I'm not saying I think this film is incredibly cerebral. It has a simple plot. My point was, it's plot is just as simple as many other famous blockbusters. Raiders is a great example. It's plot is very simple. You said in another post that Avengers is a saturday morning cartoon brought to life. You're right. But Raiders is a child's pulp adventure magazine brought to life. Literally. So you have to acknowledge that.

My point was never to say that Avengers was anything more then an incredibly fun movie with a simple plot, my point was to point out to the people who listed that as a negative, that many other blockbusters that people list as some of the greatest movies ever made.

 

[Drummerdude7]

Well said Infinity.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Has anyone else read GRRM review of the Avengers? Its a funny read, apparently BlackWidow was just eye candy for the audience and didnt do anything.

 

[Crimson King]

Link? I'd like to hear his take on a story where they don't kill off everyone I love.

 

[Drummerdude7]

Link? I'd like to hear his take on a story where they don't kill off everyone I love.

They killed off someone I loved

 

[The Morningstar]

I would disagree with your assessment of Jaws. At it's core, the movie is not about the community coming together or people's value of money over human life. Those are side elements, but again, if that was the point of the movie, the climax would have dealt with those issues. We don't see the community banding together to defeat the shark in the climax. At it's core, Jaws is a simple thriller story with one man trying to stop the monster.

I never said that Avengers was on the same level as 12 Angry Men. I was saying it reminded me of that kind of story. Yes, I think 12 Angry Men is deeper, because that play is focused solely on the characters and the character interaction. It's a character study of 12 people. Avengers isn't as deep as that, but the core of the movie is seeing these people who normally would never interact forced to do so. That's the same basic premise of 12 Angry Men. Do I think Avengers delves as deeply into questions about the moral standards of people as 12 Angry Men? Of course not. I don't recall ever saying Avengers was on the same level as that play, so please don't jump to conclusions regarding that. I was simply using it as a reference.

And honestly, what is with everyone saying Avengers wouldn't be a good campfire story? Have you guys heard campfire stories? You know what they are mostly? Suspense, shock, and action! That's what verbal stories started out as! That's what storytelling started with. Just look at some of the stories in our culture that started out as being traditionally verbal. The Odyssey is a great example. That's basically the ancient example of a a special effects bonanza with tons of action. And it was told verbally before it was ever written down. You think people don't like hearing action stories around a campfire? Why do you think we have that old notion of the ancient men telling a story about killing a lion around a campfire? Because that's what actually happened way back when. People often told stories with lots of action. The Avengers would fit right in.

Again, I'm not saying I think this film is incredibly cerebral. It has a simple plot. My point was, it's plot is just as simple as many other famous blockbusters. Raiders is a great example. It's plot is very simple. You said in another post that Avengers is a saturday morning cartoon brought to life. You're right. But Raiders is a child's pulp adventure magazine brought to life. Literally. So you have to acknowledge that.

My point was never to say that Avengers was anything more then an incredibly fun movie with a simple plot, my point was to point out to the people who listed that as a negative, that many other blockbusters that people list as some of the greatest movies ever made.

Great post.

 

[Tony Stark]

Heck even a movie like inception isn't that complicated, and had been done several times before (the matrix, the 13th floor, dark city). It was just executed superbly with great acting.

Character is the first and foremost thing of a movie, far more than story. If the characters aren't interesting, you don't care about the movie.

 

[Crimson King]

They killed off someone I loved

If you're upset by that one death, don't ever read the Song of Ice and Fire books. It will drive you to prescription meds.

 

[Tony Stark]

If you're upset by that one death, don't ever read the Song of Ice and Fire books. It will drive you to prescription meds.

No kidding! None of the people you want to die, die, and all the people you care about get whacked.

 

[Crimson King]

It's super-depressing. And yet, awesome (except for the 4th book )

 

[Primal Slayer]

Link? I'd like to hear his take on a story where they don't kill off everyone I love.

Id link it but it is whoshallnotbelinked.

so ill just quote it

I liked THE AVENGERS a lot... but maybe "loved" is too strong. I do have quibbles.

I definitely want to see it again, this time in 2D. I did not think the 3D added much, and the process made many of the scenes too dark. I am really not in love with today's 3D process. Yes, sometimes it works very well, as on HUGO, but mostly it doesn't.

Lots of lots of great stuff in THE AVENGERS, which most of the world has commented on, so I won't. The action scenes were spectacular, and overall I thought they did very well with Iron Man, the Hulk, Thor, Captain America, and Nick Fury. All great characters, all handled well, their interactions were one of the best part of the films.

However, I think they wasted the Black Widow and Hawkeye. Hawkeye is actually one of my favorite Avengers, so that saddened me. I missed the dynamic from the comics, where it's Hawkeye who is the cynical smartass (not Iron Man), always in conflict with the super straight guy Captain America. I guess, having capitalized on the undeniable talents of Robert Downey Junior to create a terrific character in Movie Iron Man, they did not feel there was room for a second wise-cracking iconoclast. Fine, but it left Hawkeye without a personality. Or much to do.

Same's true of the Black Widow. Scarlett Johanssen looked great in that outfit, but she seemed to be there only as eye candy. The shot in the middle of the battle where she pulls out a pistol was silly. I don't know who this Black Widow was, and I don't think the screenwriter did either. She wasn't the original comic Black Widow, the Russian femme fatale who seduces Hawkeye into trying to kill Iron Man. She wasn't the later comic book Black Widow, who dons a costume, comes over to the good guys, and teams with first Hawkeye and then Daredevil. She was just... there.

My own golden rule for these Marvel movies is simple -- stay with the way Stan Lee did it, and you won't go far wrong. THE AVENGERS should have done that. Hawkeye was not actually a founding member of the group, he came in later... around the same time Iron Man and Thor were leaving. Black Widow came in even later than that. So I would have followed Stan's scenario, left them out of this first movie, and replaced them with... Ant-Man and the Wasp! Who WERE founding members of the Avengers. They wanted a woman in the group, sure, but the Wasp would have done just as well as Black Widow, and Ant-Man... hey, I love Hank Pym.

All that being said... these are, ultimately, just quibbles. I did really like the film. The Hugo for Best Dramatic Presentation Long Form next year in San Antonio is really going to be a fanboy bloodbath, with AVENGERS, PROMETHEUS, and THE HOBBIT all contending for the same rocket.

Its a funny read, it is like we watched a different movie. Not to mention he was expecting a straight adaption of the comics.

 

[Drummerdude7]

If you're upset by that one death, don't ever read the Song of Ice and Fire books. It will drive you to prescription meds.

I've watched season 1 and read the first book. Moving on to 2 and its respective book now. Everything is so depressing. "Things can't possibly get worse" And then they do.

 

[Crimson King]

Red Wedding. Just you wait.

 

[CConn]

I never said that Avengers was on the same level as 12 Angry Men. I was saying it reminded me of that kind of story. Yes, I think 12 Angry Men is deeper, because that play is focused solely on the characters and the character interaction. It's a character study of 12 people. Avengers isn't as deep as that, but the core of the movie is seeing these people who normally would never interact forced to do so. That's the same basic premise of 12 Angry Men. Do I think Avengers delves as deeply into questions about the moral standards of people as 12 Angry Men? Of course not. I don't recall ever saying Avengers was on the same level as that play, so please don't jump to conclusions regarding that. I was simply using it as a reference.

That's actually a pretty good point I never thought of before. It did have that same style of character exposition and focus.

I think the one (slight) failing though is that an Avengers move could have been deeper than it was and even closer in spirit to 12 Angry Men in some ways. There's just so many socio-politcal effects of having a team like the Avengers that they really could explored and really given the movie more dimension.

 

[Drummerdude7]

^^^Ultimates did very well with exploring those themes. And there's always a sequel to explore them in a film...I think this one did well in its first instalment with the theme of uniting/coming together. They've invested their audience, and now they can blow them away even more the next time

 

[Quasimod0]

Glad to see that George liked it. With only some minor problema

 

[CConn]

^^^Ultimates did very well with exploring those themes. And there's always a sequel to explore them in a film...I think this one did well in its first instalment with the theme of uniting/coming together. They've invested their audience, and now they can blow them away even more the next time

The only thing that legitimately kinda bothered me was how they handled the destruction of New York considering we've all seen New York be attacked for real, and you know, no matter what the circumstances, there'd be more sadness than "yay, the Avenger saved the day!"

Which, I guess, is technically accurate to how it is in the comics when NY gets leveled, but for me, it kinda took me out of the movie. Especially when there were themes of public distrust in the Avengers and superpowered people that could have been explored.

 

[Drummerdude7]

The only thing that legitimately kinda bothered me was how they handled the destruction of New York considering we've all seen New York be attacked for real, and you know, no matter what the circumstances, there'd be more sadness than "yay, the Avenger saved the day!"

Which, I guess, is technically accurate to how it is in the comics when NY gets leveled, but for me, it kinda took me out of the movie. Especially when there were themes of public distrust in the Avengers and superpowered people that could have been explored.

I see where you're coming from. I can say I agree with you...but then again we also didn't see people being killed. Really you can only assume death, naturally, with buildings being levelled and whatnot. I think it was just to reinforce the message of "we saved the day!" and end on a resolved, happy note.

 

[CConn]

I see where you're coming from. I can say I agree with you...but then again we also didn't see people being killed. Really you can only assume death, naturally, with buildings being levelled and whatnot. I think it was just to reinforce the message of "we saved the day!" and end on a resolved, happy note.

Yeah, and I definitely can see why they needed to go the positive route.

It's just one of those things that holds to movie back from being one of those all out legendary movies for me.

 

[CConn]

Oh, and I know not everyone cares for this list, but Avengers now ranks in at #32 on IMDB's Top 250.

Which is pretty cool.

 

[The Morningstar]

Yea i think that montage at the end could have been a bit more in depth. Maybe have an actual proper news report by CNN or something.

It did have a couple of people being sceptical about the Avengers though.

And the thing is, even though Avengers had movies leading into it, it's still an origin film, so to speak. It's the origin of the team. Origin movies are always a bit more straight forward. The sequels is where the mythology expands.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

For the record, I do understand the desire for more depth on some of the story elements. As one of the posters pointed out, even though Loki's staff and the cosmic cube are magic, they do represent a real issue that man has faced since splitting the atom...what do we do with all this power... the responsibility, the change in our place in the universe, etc. This is a very complex issue and could've have been explored with some serious cerebral expansion... but this is not the point of this movie. I am glad the writers/ directors stayed on task overall. The issues have been raised and can be explore in the follow-up movies more thoroughly. Again, I do understand some peoples desires for more of that this time.

For that matter, as some have pointed out, this was an Avengers movie from Captain America's tie in aspect. With that in mind, it would have been nice to see more depth with the man time stuff as well.

 

[C. Lee]

A word to the wise.....as unwise as it is to post a link to a story where the uncensored F word is used a couple dozen times.....it's just as unwise to quote that post so that you have now posted a link to a story where the uncensored F word is used a couple dozen times.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Id link it but it is whoshallnotbelinked.

so ill just quote it


Its a funny read, it is like we watched a different movie. Not to mention he was expecting a straight adaption of the comics.

Now...I love GRRM, he's quite possibly my favorite writer, but his ideas and opinions on how comic book films should be made astounds me, I mean he absolutely hated Thor all because it lacked the crippled Don Blake finding Mjolnir in a cave in Norway.

He's a talented man, but geez he's a purist.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Its a funny read, it is like we watched a different movie. Not to mention he was expecting a straight adaption of the comics.

Now...I love GRRM, he's quite possibly my favorite writer, but his ideas and opinions on how comic book films should be made astounds me, I mean he absolutely hated Thor all because it lacked the crippled Don Blake finding Mjolnir in a cave in Norway.

He's a talented man, but geez he's a purist.

Somebody should ask him his opinion on Supermans trunks