The Avengers The Official Rate/Review Thread for Marvel's The Avengers! (TAG SPOILERS!!!) - Part 3

[JAK®]

Now you're just being needlessly self-righteous.

If that was the case I would be going around judging whether films were 'legitimate' or not.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

In the other conversation I just had about TA, I actually brought that scene up myself as a great example of Whedon attempting to really thread some good stuff into the film; I loved it.

That said, I feel as though every time he attempted to to it, it kind of sputtered out before any satisfying resolution or conclusion could be made.

In what way does it sputter? I thought it was done ever so subtly, which is how commentary should be done. Like I said, the idea that in order for there to be true "peace", you would need someone to force it on us as a species. So to that end Loki is right. He says something to the likes of "the humans slaughter each other and you idly fret." He's right. We do kill each other. But that is the price you have to pay for having free will. To that end, it was great. Plus there were some themes of not trusting power, by having Stark and Banner and Cap gang up against SHEILD and find out about phase 2. Shoving in political buzzwords is a lazy and cheap way to try and make something seem more important than it actually is.

 

[CConn]

If that was the case I would be going around judging whether films were 'legitimate' or not.

I've already explained this to you once already. I meant that to me personally, it doesn't seem as legitimate as other films.

I wasn't trying to infer that my statement is definitive or universal as you assumed it to be.

 

[JAK®]

I've already explained this to you once already. I meant that to me personally, it doesn't seem as legitimate as other films.

I wasn't trying to infer that my statement is definitive or universal as you assumed it to be.

Nonetheless, it still bothers me that there is this notion of 'legitimacy' that you have in your head. And that The Avengers somehow doesn't live up to it.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Now you're just being needlessly self-righteous.

Expecting us to see that The Avengers needs more social and political sub-text, when most people are not calling for it, is also sort of self-righteous. That kind of subtext works well for Nolan's Batman series since it's been in there from the start, but with the way the MCU was done, adding it would be a serious change of course. That might have real jarring for fans and not what Marvel Studios was going for, who probably wanted a semi-serious movie that wouldn't turn off certain segments of the population with political and social statements.

 

[CConn]

In what way does it sputter? I thought it was done ever so subtly, which is how commentary should be done. Like I said, the idea that in order for there to be true "peace", you would need someone to force it on us as a species. So to that end Loki is right. He says something to the likes of "the humans slaughter each other and you idly fret." He's right. We do kill each other. But that is the price you have to pay for having free will. To that end, it was great. Plus there were some themes of not trusting power, by having Stark and Banner and Cap gang up against SHEILD and find out about phase 2. Shoving in political buzzwords is a lazy and cheap way to try and make something seem more important than it actually is.

Because there was no resolution to it.

He posed the question, but what was the answer?

There needed to be something to tie it all together. Maybe show the public more worshipping the Avengers like Loki wanted them to worship him. Madeinstalled a scene that delves a bit into Loki's own personal feelings on dominance vs. submission in regards to his relationship with the Chi'Tari; maybe espouse his own hidden desire to worship Thanos like he expects man to worship him. Something like that.

 

[CConn]

Nonetheless, it still bothers me that there is this notion of 'legitimacy' that you have in your head. And that The Avengers somehow doesn't live up to it.

So...me having an opinion you disagree with bothers you?

 

[CConn]

Expecting us to see that The Avengers needs more social and political sub-text, when most people are not calling for it, is also sort of self-righteous.

I'm not expecting anyone to "see" it necessarily. I'm merely expressing my thoughts on the matter. You can agree or disagree all you like for all I care.

That kind of subtext works well for Nolan's Batman series since it's been in there from the start, but with the way the MCU was done, adding it would be a serious change of course. That might have real jarring for fans and not what Marvel Studios was going for, who probably wanted a semi-serious movie that wouldn't turn off certain segments of the population with political and social statements.

What you're saying is little more than naysaying; paying more attention to what supposedly "can't" be done than what's possible.

 

[JAK®]

Because there was no resolution to it.

He posed the question, but what was the answer?

There needed to be something to tie it all together. Maybe show the public more worshipping the Avengers like Loki wanted them to worship him. Madeinstalled a scene that delves a bit into Loki's own personal feelings on dominance vs. submission in regards to his relationship with the Chi'Tari; maybe espouse his own hidden desire to worship Thanos like he expects man to worship him. Something like that.

You got the answer at the end when Hulk beat him up after Loki told him he should worship him.

That scene, as I have already said but you chose to ignore, was not social commentary about humanity wishing to be ruled, but a look into Loki's own deluded sense of grandeur. It was a character moment.

Also see Thor's conversation with Loki at the beginning. Loki is wrong, and the fact that he believes what he is saying is his downfall. He vastly underestimates humanity and he loses.

In fact the whole Cosmic Cube plot is based around that idea.

 

[CConn]

You got the answer at the end when Hulk beat him up after Loki told him he should worship him.

That scene, as I have already said but you chose to ignore, was not social commentary about humanity wishing to be ruled, but a look into Loki's own deluded sense of grandeur. It was a character moment.

Also see Thor's conversation with Loki at the beginning. Loki is wrong, and the fact that he believes what he is saying is his downfall. He vastly underestimates humanity and he loses.

In fact the whole Cosmic Cube plot is based around that idea.

Then it's too simple - and, IMO, a wholly unrealistic - a statement to be making.

People DO want to be ruled in a respect. As JSG said, that's how Hitler came to power. By simply punching Loki and saying that he's wrong, they ignored the truth in his original statement.

That's a lot of depth and commentary that was passed on simply to prove the generic point of "villain is bad".

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Then it's too simple - and, IMO, a wholly unrealistic - a statement to be making.

People DO want to be ruled in a respect. As JSG said, that's how Hitler came to power. By simply punching Loki and saying that he's wrong, they ignored the truth in his original statement.

That's a lot of depth and commentary that was passed on simply to prove the generic point of "villain is bad".

I also think the sequence in Berlin with Loki making people kneel before him and then Cap stopping him says something as well. Loki may think he's like no other and is all-powerful, but there will always be people, like the Avengers, to stand up to evil. It may be somewhat simplistic but going much deeper than that adds unnecessary pseudo-intellectualism/preaching that turns people off.

 

[CConn]

I also think the sequence in Berlin with Loki making people kneel before him and then Cap stopping him says something as well. Loki may think he's like no other and is all-powerful, but there will always be people, like the Avengers, to stand up to evil. It may be somewhat simplistic but going much deeper than that adds unnecessary pseudo-intellectualism/preaching that turns people off.

You're making it more complex than it needs to be.

How would Loki kneeing before Thranos turn people off?

Or having people be a little bit too gracious to the Avengers turn people off?

 

[JustSomeGuy]

Because there was no resolution to it.

He posed the question, but what was the answer?

There needed to be something to tie it all together. Maybe show the public more worshipping the Avengers like Loki wanted them to worship him. Madeinstalled a scene that delves a bit into Loki's own personal feelings on dominance vs. submission in regards to his relationship with the Chi'Tari; maybe espouse his own hidden desire to worship Thanos like he expects man to worship him. Something like that.

What was the answer? There is no answer, that's why it is considered an issue. If you mean an answer to Loki's personal ravings about how humans should be ruled by someone bigger than them, it was the Hulk putting him into the ground. That part was so brilliant, had so much more weight to it than simple comic relief.

Thor: You think yourself above them.
Loki: ...well yes.

He's almost taken aback by the question. Humans are so far beneath him, he doesn't care about the individual in any way, doesn't care about killing because people don't even register on his radar. Not to mention he constantly is talking about the mindless beast of the hulk, plus his whole plan to stall the avengers was to set the hulk off, which he did. And the resolution is the Hulk putting him in the ground. Loki is absolutely a puny god. That is character resolution. He has no business ruling humans, even if it does end up in world peace. This film was brilliant, IMO...

 

[JAK®]

Then it's too simple - and, IMO, a wholly unrealistic - a statement to be making.

People DO want to be ruled in a respect. As JSG said, that's how Hitler came to power. By simply punching Loki and saying that he's wrong, they ignored the truth in his original statement.

That's a lot of depth and commentary that was passed on simply to prove the generic point of "villain is bad".

But the film isn't about people wanting to be ruled.

This is the mistake you're making, you're desperately looking for subtext which is not there and not necessary.

Just enjoy the story. It's a good one.

 

[CConn]

But the film isn't about people wanting to be ruled.

This is the mistake you're making, you're desperately looking for subtext which is not there and not necessary.

Just enjoy the story. It's a good one.

...

I'm not desperately looking for subtext. I realize instances where subtext could easily be interjected to, IMO, great success.

I thoroughly enjoy the story for what it is, but again, for about the fourth time, for me, subtext IS necessary. I'm not knocking your enjoyment or opinions of the film at all, but you need to stop giving me a hard time just because I don't conform to your way of thinking.

 

[JAK®]

Okay. I'll let you go. I've made my point. Feel free to discuss all the ways you could add an extra hour to the movies runtime.

 

[CConn]

What was the answer? There is no answer, that's why it is considered an issue. If you mean an answer to Loki's personal ravings about how humans should be ruled by someone bigger than them, it was the Hulk putting him into the ground. That part was so brilliant, had so much more weight to it than simple comic relief.

Yes, I understand that, and thoroughly appreciate it, don't get me wrong.

But I'm more approaching it from the perspective of what does Loki's opinions on submission and dominance say about himself? What's the universal constant in his head when it comes to the subject?

Yes, he thinks humans are ants. Most villains do. It's not really anything new. It would be why he feels that way that would be of interest to me, and it's never touched upon.

Thor: You think yourself above them.
Loki: ...well yes.

He's almost taken aback by the question. Humans are so far beneath him, he doesn't care about the individual in any way, doesn't care about killing because people don't even register on his radar. Not to mention he constantly is talking about the mindless beast of the hulk, plus his whole plan to stall the avengers was to set the hulk off, which he did. And the resolution is the Hulk putting him in the ground. Loki is absolutely a puny god. That is character resolution. He has no business ruling humans, even if it does end up in world peace. This film was brilliant, IMO...

That's really a good example of how we're really talking about two different things;

TA is all about characterization, character arcs, and character progression - and it's all very good, don't get me wrong - but it's more about the actual introspection that I personally find interest in.

The examples you're giving a great examples of the resolution of Loki's character arc - and it was done very well, and I give the film a lot of credit for that - but in terms of explaining Loki's original motivations - or, better yet - creating parallels to mankind in general, is never touched really touched upon.

 

[CConn]

Okay. I'll let you go. I've made my point. Feel free to discuss all the ways you could add an extra hour to the movies runtime.

Again, you're just being pointlessly dismissive.

And as I already said - and illustrated in the case of Batman Returns - proper subtext is done without adding any large amounts of additional running time.

 

[Rock Sexton]

 

[Flemm]

...
I'm not desperately looking for subtext. I realize instances where subtext could easily be interjected to, IMO, great success.

I thoroughly enjoy the story for what it is, but again, for about the fourth time, for me, subtext IS necessary. I'm not knocking your enjoyment or opinions of the film at all, but you need to stop giving me a hard time just because I don't conform to your way of thinking.

Avengers isn't trying to mean anything. It's just trying to be fun, with some self-awareness and a sense of humor, so that the intelligence of the viewer is not insulted (while also not being solicited very much).

Liking or not liking that approach makes sense to me. But questioning its legitimacy? Meh, I don't see it. There are times when I'm tempted to go the other way with that reasoning, tbh. None of these blockbuster movies mean much, really, subtext or no subtext. X-Men: FC certainly doesn't. Often I'd rather a movie like this simply strive to entertain in a non-stupid way.

 

[CConn]

Yes, I understand that.

Again, my entire point has been that I, personally, prefer subtextual depth.

I'm not trying to infer anyone else should feel the same way.

 

[Doc Ock]

I saw Avengers a few weeks ago(yeah it took me a while, I wasn't going to see it by myself!) and there isn't much for me to say that has not already been said by the many who saw it before me previously. It was a fantastic film! I didn't truly realize how great it was until I saw Thanos smiling on screen, which in turn made me smile bigger. Joss Whedon and the cast was just perfect. Hulk, Loki, and Thor were my favorites though.

I give it a 9/10. Or more so a 9.5. Its the perfect superhero team film IMO. Or so far. Being a fan of Buffy and Firefly its good to see Joss is the one to do this so perfectly! My favorite moments of the film wasn't the action but the dialog between the characters.

 

[Vartha]

Well Doc, If I knew where you were over there I would have gone too. lol I'm around 15-20 miles from Ok. lol

 

[Doc Ock]

Well Doc, If I knew where you were over there I would have gone too. lol I'm around 15-20 miles from Ok. lol

You'd drive all the way for just a movie!? lol

 

[Pedro Parque]

Who would ever thought that The Avengers would be the best superhero film of the year?

The Avengers 10/10
The Amazing Spider-Man 9.5/10
The Dark Knight Rises 4/10
Ghost Rider II 3/10