BvS The Official Zack Snyder Directs Everything Thread

[The Batman]

I have yet to see anyone actually say "I wanted Superman to act more like the Donner version", especially since fans turned on Donner following SR.

Some fans just seemingly wanted no neck breaking and some blatant "Superman saves people" scene, a concept which is not exclusive to the Donner films and is seen in plenty of modern comic book films.

 

[MrsKent26]

Honestly, if you tell me...Superman fans do not know what they want. After Superman Returns failure, we hear "wtf man, it was time for a reboot, the Donner films were good for what they accomplished." Then MOS happened, and then some people were like "ehhhh the movie wasn't great" (which is fine), then others were like "wtf man, I was expecting Superman's characterization to be like Donner's Superman."

Truly damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Some superman fans do know what they want. I wanted MOS and was happy with it thematically. There were some technical aspects of film making in general that need improvement, but I'm on board with the rest.

I agree that some people fit with what you're describing though. It boggles me when some say no one whines about Supes not being like Donner. I had a conversation with someone the other day saying they wanted that.

 

[Lord]

Maybe because they could have liked an element of a film while not thinking it was a good movie itself. I don't see that close to "damned if you do, damned if you don't"

 

[The Batman]

I think if you had a stronger Director and Screenwriter, you could've taken all the elements of MOS, including the mass destruction and neck breaking, and ended up with a more universally loved film.

"Batman Begins" has Nolan Batman, who unlike Snyder Superman has a clearly defined "No kill" rule, leave his archenemy to die. Its not as much as a talking point as Superman killing Zod because Batman Begins is considered a good film by most fans and critics.

 

[EssayM]

Whoa...okay, let me try to clarify...

Just up front, I do have a copy of the movie on my computer and am waiting till I have a couple hours to sit down and watch it. The thing is, I'm honestly not looking forward to watching it - not because "everyone else says it sucks", but because, from hearing many arguments both for and against the movie, and even watching a considerable amount of footage from it (including the controversial bits), I personally think it seems dull, pretentious, forgettable, just generally unrewarding, and completely lacking in the elements that made Superman unique and fun. I could very well be completely wrong about that, but this is the impression I've formed from my limited exposure to the film, and I have very little confidence that this will change once I watch it.

On another note, I don't think every that every Superman movie has to be exactly like the Donner films. I'm totally in favor of being creative with the character and his world, and even going in a darker and more contemporary direction. That said, if your "creative new direction" is (again, what looks like, from my limited perspective) Batman Begins storyline meets every summer action movie ever made in the past couple yers, then what's the point? You might as well just take Superman out of it and make it a completely different movie, because that (to me) has nothing to with Superman.

 

[InJustice]

Some superman fans do know what they want. I wanted MOS and was happy with it thematically. There were some technical aspects of film making in general that need improvement, but I'm on board with the rest.

I agree that some people fit with what you're describing though. It boggles me when some say no one whines about Supes not being like Donner. I had a conversation with someone the other day saying they wanted that.

I agree with the technical stuff of Man of Steel needing to be addressed.

I think if you had a stronger Director and Screenwriter, you could've taken all the elements of MOS, including the mass destruction and neck breaking, and ended up with a more universally loved film.

"Batman Begins" has Nolan Batman, who unlike Snyder Superman has a clearly defined "No kill" rule, leave his archenemy to die. Its not as much as a talking point as Superman killing Zod because Batman Begins is considered a good film by most fans and critics.

I highly doubt having a good writer/director is going to change opinions. People even criticized about mass destruction in movies like the Avengers and Pacific Rim and they both had likeable directors. As for the neck-breaking, I can't see how that's a problem. If this is an origin story, then you'd have to explain why he chooses not to kill...and exploring it through having Superman kill the last citizen of Krypton leads to interesting narrative potential. Why is it that the comics could explore the storyline with Superman killing with little to no problems, but it's somehow sacrilegious to explore Superman killing in the movies?

Also, that's not really true for Batman Begins. I still see people criticize Batman for leaving Ra's Al Ghul behind despite having a no-kill rule, and it gets even worse in the latter movies. It's not because Nolan directed the film that they suddenly forgot about it. It has nothing to do with the big names involved, and everything to do with "does it line up with the internal logic of the film?" As strong as TDKT is IMO, the trilogy's weakest point is consistency.

 

[Glassjaw]

i'm tired of those that didn't think MoS was good being labeled as Donner fanboys.

Same, it's just a lazy way to defend the film. Synder pulled the Donner defense but makes no mention of the fact that Goyers script was seriously lacking. Even those who loved MoS were pleased to see he would be getting help in the writing department for the sequel.

When someome says they didn't like The Dark Knight Rises, does Christopher Nolan turn around and say 'Well of course you didn't enjoy it, you're clinging to the Adam West Batman!' ? No, the merits of the film in question get discussed.

When I say I wish MoS could have been different, I think towards something like Birthright, not a movie made 35 years ago.

 

[green]

can't disagree more... Sucker Punch was pretty awesome, and frankly the "story" was pretty darn good too.
have to agree with the interviewer, most folks who don't like sucker punch just don't get it and didn't see the story there.

Unlike most I completely agree with you!
Hoping that extended cut Snyder spoke of gets to see the light of day.
I love that he mentioned that Slashfilm video in the interview.

 

[InJustice]

Also, a lot of people are taking Zack Snyder's words out of context. This is what he said:

ZS: …I think with Superman we have this opportunity to place this icon within the sort of real world we live in. And I think that, honestly, the thing I was surprised about in response to Superman was how everyone clings to the Christopher Reeve version of Superman, you know? How tightly they cling to those ideas, not really the comic book version but more the movie version… If you really analyze the comic book version of Superman, he’s killed, he’s done all the things– I guess the rules that people associate with Superman in the movie world are not the rules that really apply to him in the comic book world, because those rules are different. He’s done all the things and more that we’ve shown him doing, right? It’s just funny to see people really taking it personally… because I made him real, you know, I made him feel, or made consequences [in] the world. I felt like, it was the same thing in Watchmen. We really wanted to show it wasn’t just like they thought, like the PG-13 version where everyone just gets up and they’re fine. I really wanted to show the violence is real, people get killed or get hurt, and it’s not fun or funny. And I guess for me, it was like I wanted a hero in Superman that was a real hero and sort of reflected the world we live in now…

Seems to me that Snyder is more interested in showing how there's more to Superman than the ideas presented in the Donner's movies, rather than the notion some of you have that he's defending Man of Steel by bashing the people who liked Donner's movies. Notice how he mentions what Superman has done in the comics.

 

[MrsKent26]

Same, it's just a lazy way to defend the film. Synder pulled the Donner defense but makes no mention of the fact that Goyers script was seriously lacking. Even those who loved MoS were pleased to see he would be getting help in the writing department for the sequel.

When someome says they didn't like The Dark Knight Rises, does Christopher Nolan turn around and say 'Well of course you didn't enjoy it, you're clinging to the Adam West Batman!' ? No, the merits of the film in question get discussed.

When I say I wish MoS could have been different, I think towards something like Birthright, not a movie made 35 years ago.

To be fair, both can be true and some have already stated that. Some people DO complain that MOS isn't like Donner's movies in various ways. Some people DO complain about other things like Goyer's script. It doesn't have to be either/or. I brought up the Donner thing because I think it's one of the complaints lodged at this movie that isn't as reasonable as other complaints. Sometimes people mistake my pointing this out as meaning that there are NO reasonable complaints about this movie and that's not true. There are many reasonable complaints and most center around the script.

 

[Lord]

Superman needed to kill Zod to know that killing is wrong?

 

[dnno1]

Superman needed to kill Zod to know that killing is wrong?

No, he needed to kill Zod to stop him from causing any further destruction to Earth and mankind. He actually realized how wrong it was after killing him.

 

[InJustice]

Superman needed to kill Zod to know that killing is wrong?

It was either kill Zod, or he continues his rampage. It's not even different from real life situations, such as a police officer/sniper choosing between killing the criminal or having the criminal further endanger people.

In fact, a police officer being able to kill somehow means that he/she does not know that killing is wrong?

 

[MrsKent26]

It was either kill Zod, or he continues his rampage. It's not even different from real life situations, such as a police officer/sniper choosing between killing the criminal or having the criminal further endanger people.

In fact, a police officer being able to kill somehow means that he/she does not know that killing is wrong?

But he's Superman! He always finds a way! Goyer shouldn't have written a no-win scenario, etc.

Sorry, I know it's coming. I just thought I'd beat people to it for once, lol.

 

[Spamtron]

Everyone has their own opinion and that's fine... but if you think Sucker Punch wasn't good for any of the reasons listed in the last couple pages, then you can't say, "I got it, but it failed at this or that." Because you actually didn't get it, and that's why you didn't like it. No big deal, and no ill will...shoot there are also plenty of people who enjoyed it and didn't actually "get it" either. Just like the thousands of commercials out there, where the few that get it get it.

I'm with the folks saying if you haven't seen MOS then you have no valid opinion of it. Going by what you expect it to be "hearing" about it from others, or what snippets of trailers you've seen is just absurd, so watch it, then bother typing your opinion of such things.

So far I've enjoyed most of the Zack stuff I've seen... own Director's cuts of Sucker Punch and Watchmen, also have the Owls, 300, and MOS. All are quite repeatedly fun to watch. I get much more satisfaction from watching MOS that Donner's versions...and I grew up on liking those Supes showings.

 

[The Batman]

I highly doubt having a good writer/director is going to change opinions. People even criticized about mass destruction in movies like the Avengers and Pacific Rim and they both had likeable directors.

You act like the level criticism for the mass destruction in "Avengers" is equal to the level of criticism for MOS' mass destruction. Its not.

As for the neck-breaking, I can't see how that's a problem. If this is an origin story, then you'd have to explain why he chooses not to kill...and exploring it through having Superman kill the last citizen of Krypton leads to interesting narrative potential. Why is it that the comics could explore the storyline with Superman killing with little to no problems, but it's somehow sacrilegious to explore Superman killing in the movies?

IMO, Because MOS isn't that good a movie, and when a movie is good, people are willing to forgive more of its flaws. When a movie ain't that good, people are willing to tear it apart at the seams.

Also, that's not really true for Batman Begins. I still see people criticize Batman for leaving Ra's Al Ghul behind despite having a no-kill rule, and it gets even worse in the latter movies. It's not because Nolan directed the film that they suddenly forgot about it. It has nothing to do with the big names involved, and everything to do with "does it line up with the internal logic of the film?" As strong as TDKT is IMO, the trilogy's weakest point is consistency.

People criticize Superman killing Zod more than others who criticize Batman killing people in the Nolan films. In fact, Superman killing Zod has become one of the defining attributes of this film in the eyes of many. That is not the case for Batman's numerous murders in TDKT. While people do criticize Nolan Batman taking lives, it is not at the same level of scrutiny MOS Superman gets for killing someone.

 

[MrsKent26]

Everyone has their own opinion and that's fine... but if you think Sucker Punch wasn't good for any of the reasons listed in the last couple pages, then you can't say, "I got it, but it failed at this or that." Because you actually didn't get it, and that's why you didn't like it. No big deal, and no ill will...shoot there are also plenty of people who enjoyed it and didn't actually "get it" either. Just like the thousands of commercials out there, where the few that get it get it.

What didn't I "get" about it? Please explain because I think I got it just fine based on what Snyder himself said about it.

 

[X Knight]

It was either kill Zod, or he continues his rampage. It's not even different from real life situations, such as a police officer/sniper choosing between killing the criminal or having the criminal further endanger people.

In fact, a police officer being able to kill somehow means that he/she does not know that killing is wrong?

exactly.

and a cop/soldier having to kill someone in the line of duty to protect others in now way means he enjoys killing or that he doesn't know killing is wrong until he actually kills someone.

however, it could have such an effect on him, that he never wants to do that again.

 

[X Knight]

Also, a lot of people are taking Zack Snyder's words out of context. This is what he said:

ZS: …I think with Superman we have this opportunity to place this icon within the sort of real world we live in. And I think that, honestly, the thing I was surprised about in response to Superman was how everyone clings to the Christopher Reeve version of Superman, you know? How tightly they cling to those ideas, not really the comic book version but more the movie version… If you really analyze the comic book version of Superman, he’s killed, he’s done all the things– I guess the rules that people associate with Superman in the movie world are not the rules that really apply to him in the comic book world, because those rules are different. He’s done all the things and more that we’ve shown him doing, right? It’s just funny to see people really taking it personally… because I made him real, you know, I made him feel, or made consequences [in] the world. I felt like, it was the same thing in Watchmen. We really wanted to show it wasn’t just like they thought, like the PG-13 version where everyone just gets up and they’re fine. I really wanted to show the violence is real, people get killed or get hurt, and it’s not fun or funny. And I guess for me, it was like I wanted a hero in Superman that was a real hero and sort of reflected the world we live in now…

Seems to me that Snyder is more interested in showing how there's more to Superman than the ideas presented in the Donner's movies, rather than the notion some of you have that he's defending Man of Steel by bashing the people who liked Donner's movies. Notice how he mentions what Superman has done in the comics.

the irony is........the Donner Superman did some questionable things too, including killing.

 

[InJustice]

You act like the level criticism for the mass destruction in "Avengers" is equal to the level of criticism for MOS' mass destruction. Its not.

The way it was filmed might've been different, but that doesn't mean that people didn't have a problem with the Avengers' destruction scenes.

IMO, Because MOS isn't that good a movie, and when a movie is good, people are willing to forgive more of its flaws. When a movie ain't that good, people are willing to tear it apart at the seams.

That makes no sense, because there are people who like Batman Begins, but have a hard time reconciling with the ending scene where Batman leaves Ra's Al Ghul to die. Relying on the whole "the movie was good, so I'll forgive these flaws" logic is pretty lazy.

Also, "good" is a subjective term. You might think it's not good (and more power to you), but that doesn't mean that the killing itself is illegitimate. There have been plenty of people who argued that Superman killing is not a bad thing, and it's certainly not a sacred ground considering comics have explored the notion. What it seems to me is that people can't separate between wanting films to pander to their version of Superman vs. being aware that there are more interpretations than their ideal Superman. It's the same thing with people here, who complain that Batman would never retire when talking about TDK and TDKR.

People criticize Superman killing Zod more than others who criticize Batman killing people in the Nolan films. In fact, Superman killing Zod has become one of the defining attributes of this film in the eyes of many. That is not the case for Batman's numerous murders in TDKT. While people do criticize Nolan Batman taking lives, it is not at the same level of scrutiny MOS Superman gets for killing someone.

You act like just because people talked about it less in TDKT, that it means it's somehow less of a problem. It's still a problem regardless. It's a pretty glaring contradiction when re-watching the films and it makes you wonder why even bother going with the no-kill rule to begin with.

As for Superman killing being a defining attribute, it goes back to what I said before, people can't separate between wanting films to pander to their version of Superman vs. being aware that there are more interpretations than their ideal Superman. Not to mention, Superman's status as a pop icon is far greater than Batman's, which is why Superman killing is all the more "outrageous" to them.

 

[Lord]

It was either kill Zod, or he continues his rampage. It's not even different from real life situations, such as a police officer/sniper choosing between killing the criminal or having the criminal further endanger people.

In fact, a police officer being able to kill somehow means that he/she does not know that killing is wrong?

But that was not my point, it was the idea that Zack Snyder had Superman killing in order to explain his "no kill rule"

 

[Herolee10]

I guess it's already that time of the day where we argue about superman killing zod. It won't be long now before we bring up a marvel film again to compate things before we conclude the evening with speculating on when we'll get pictures

 

[InJustice]

the irony is........the Donner Superman did some questionable things too, including killing.

Some parts were executed quite poorly though. I mean, you would expect Superman to be introspective or devastated that he killed Zod. Not to mention, Clark and Superman were written almost like jockheads when they sought revenge on the bully and Zod. To me, the tonal shift is jarring.

 

[Lord]

Superman didn't kill Zod, the scene where they're taken by the police was deleted in the Theatrical version, but has been present in most other versions of the film.

 

[MrsKent26]

Superman didn't kill Zod, the scene where they're taken by the police was deleted in the Theatrical version, but has been present in most other versions of the film.

He killed them in the version I saw on TV a couple months ago.