The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 55

[DeadPresident]

Based on what? Woodward has been awful at his job the entire time he has been here, and at the same time has been getting the backing of the Glazers. They think he is doing a good job. The reason we don't have a director of football already is... money. The Glazers didn't think it was worth the money. And then we had an disaster of an offseason, where we spent very little money all things considered. An offseason the Glazers will see as a success.

Jose already said how bad things are. LvG did as well. What would Edwin saying something change exactly?

You are quick to complain about others seeing "disaster" but you being optimistic in the face of reality, does not somehow make your POV correct. If just makes you optimistic, while wrong.

You already mentioned the reason why they’ll do it and so did I in my first post; money. It actually makes more financial sense to have someone like VDS come up with a transfer and footballing strategy because it means less wasted money on wages and more opportunity to turn a profit on players bought.

If Woodward has been as awful at his job as you say then the Glazers will insist on a DoF because that will prevent Woodward making any more signings that loses the club money.

I’m quick to complain about unreasonable pessimism, mostly because this thread has transformed into a United group therapy session. My point of view is correct because objectively a DoF like VDS who has done a solid job at Ajax, even if Woodward doesn’t always listen to him if he’s appointed, is better than what we currently have and even that incremental improvement is better than nothing.

 

[B]

Did you not watch him play for City last season or at the start of this season?

Who is going to teach Rashford at United the way Pep taught Sterling? It's the same for Sancho. Who we probably don't have a pray for if we don't make the CL next season.

"Sterling's game has improved significantly these last 2 seasons under Pep"

??

 

[jolldan]

Zlatan Ibrahimovic set to unveil giant bronze statue of himself in Malmö

Abouth the most Zlatan thing I have ever heard

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You already mentioned the reason why they’ll do it and so did I in my first post; money. It actually makes more financial sense to have someone like VDS come up with a transfer and footballing strategy because it means less wasted money on wages and more opportunity to turn a profit on players bought.

If Woodward has been as awful at his job as you say then the Glazers will insist on a DoF because that will prevent Woodward making any more signings that loses the club money.

I’m quick to complain about unreasonable pessimism, mostly because this thread has transformed into a United group therapy session. My point of view is correct because objectively a DoF like VDS who has done a solid job at Ajax, even if Woodward doesn’t always listen to him if he’s appointed, is better than what we currently have and even that incremental improvement is better than nothing.

Based on what?

You second point makes no sense. Where is our director of football already then? There has been a ton of money wasted since SAF left. We were suppose to get a director of football before this past summer. Then it was leaked that the Glazers didn't see it as necessary, especially at the price a good one would cost. More so, if Woodward still handles the transfers, how does that make them cheaper?

A director of football with no power does not effect a thing. If Woodward has the power, how does anything change? It is no different then the situation with our managers now. Other clubs know they can swindle us, or use us for other deals. Also, you complain about the "group therapy session" while you continue to be wrong about our prospect and continue to act like Woodward isn't really, really, really bad at his job. Explain the state of our squad after 6 years, especially with the money that was spent early on, if those complaining are wrong. And considering that state how will incremental change help? Is that what City or Liverpool has done?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

"Sterling's game has improved significantly these last 2 seasons under Pep"

??

Well you said the Kosovo bit like we needed to measure them by that alone. Like he hasn't been destroying for City. So I was a little confused. Also, we should be nicer to Kosovo. I think that was their first loss in 14.

 

[B]

Well you said the Kosovo bit like we needed to measure them by that alone. Like he hasn't been destroying for City. So I was a little confused. Also, we should be nicer to Kosovo. I think that was their first loss in 14.

No I only mentioned Kosovo because he was exceptional & if he performed like that every single week, he'd be putting up Messi or Ronaldo type video game stats ie 40+ goals, 15+ assists a season.

Yeah I heard during the game but they are a terrible team make no mistake about that, I'd be very surprised if they played any decent teams during that run.

 

[Iceman]

Zlatan Ibrahimovic set to unveil giant bronze statue of himself in Malmö

Abouth the most Zlatan thing I have ever heard

And the funny thing is that something like this is not at all surprising.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

No I only mentioned Kosovo because he was exceptional & if he performed like that every single week, he'd be putting up Messi or Ronaldo type video game stats ie 40+ goals, 15+ assists a season.

Yeah I heard during the game but they are a terrible team make no mistake about that, I'd be very surprised if they played any decent teams during that run.

They aren't great, and I believe they are the youngest FIFA team in the world. But they handled their Nations League group well enough and are arguably the second best team, in that very bad group. Pretty scrappy all things considered.

 

[Iceman]

No I only mentioned Kosovo because he was exceptional & if he performed like that every single week, he'd be putting up Messi or Ronaldo type video game stats ie 40+ goals, 15+ assists a season.

Yeah I heard during the game but they are a terrible team make no mistake about that, I'd be very surprised if they played any decent teams during that run.

England need a player like Sterling to kick onto to that elite level. Rooney had so much promise but didn’t have the dedication.

 

[B]

Model charged with fraud in Neymar rape case

Interesting turn of events in the Neymar off-field drama, strongly appears as though he was being blackmailed.

She should literally get the jail sentence that Neymar would have recieved if he'd been convicted of rape.

It's sad when these accusations come up it seems like everyone automatically assumes it to be true, even if it's later found out to be a false accusation the damage to the persons reputation has already been done.

 

[B]

England need a player like Sterling to kick onto to that elite level. Rooney had so much promise but didn’t have the dedication.

I don't think it would be fair to say Rooney underperformed or underachieved because at his peak, he was world class, however if he had the mentality of someone like Ronaldo, Zlatan, Giggs etc he probably would have finished his career at United.

 

[Iceman]

I don't think it would be fair to say Rooney underperformed or underachieved because at his peak, he was world class, however if he had the mentality of someone like Ronaldo, Zlatan, Giggs etc he probably would have finished his career at United.

I think he had the talent of Ronaldo and Messi but finished a long way behind them due to having much less focus on diet and training, and these things add up over the years. Also there are a lot players who are world class at their peak. Rooney had more talent than any other English player in a long time and could have been the first to be regularly competing for world player of the year every year IMO. None of this is to say he wasn’t a success regardless, but the same would apply to Ronaldo and Messi if they had scored a few hundred goals less and been down to the levels of say an Arjen Robben.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't think it would be fair to say Rooney underperformed or underachieved because at his peak, he was world class, however if he had the mentality of someone like Ronaldo, Zlatan, Giggs etc he probably would have finished his career at United.

I want to say he was world class at his peak. The one big issue I would have with it, is that what I would call his "peak" (2006-2010) he was inconsistent for most of it. He'd go on crazy droughts in front of goal. 2010 was his best individual season and we probably should have done the PL/CL double on the back of his performance that season. But then Rooney got injured and we ended up not winning either. After that it was kind of downhill. His inconsistent play began to dominant.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I think he had the talent of Ronaldo and Messi but finished a long way behind them due to having much less focus on diet and training, and these things add up over the years. Also there are a lot players who are world class at their peak. Rooney had more talent than any other English player in a long time and could have been the first to be regularly competing for world player of the year every year IMO. None of this is to say he wasn’t a success regardless, but the same would apply to Ronaldo and Messi if they had scored a few hundred goals less and been down to the levels of say an Arjen Robben.

We can get into genetics, which is fair. But Rooney came in heavy so often, and we know he spent plenty of time not taking care of himself. Whether it was the drinking, smoking or getting knocked literally unconscious ****ing around in his kitchen. He was done as a truly top class player at what, 28? Arguably earlier.

 

[DeadPresident]

Based on what?

You second point makes no sense. Where is our director of football already then? There has been a ton of money wasted since SAF left. We were suppose to get a director of football before this past summer. Then it was leaked that the Glazers didn't see it as necessary, especially at the price a good one would cost. More so, if Woodward still handles the transfers, how does that make them cheaper?

A director of football with no power does not effect a thing. If Woodward has the power, how does anything change? It is no different then the situation with our managers now. Other clubs know they can swindle us, or use us for other deals. Also, you complain about the "group therapy session" while you continue to be wrong about our prospect and continue to act like Woodward isn't really, really, really bad at his job. Explain the state of our squad after 6 years, especially with the money that was spent early on, if those complaining are wrong. And considering that state how will incremental change help? Is that what City or Liverpool has done?

Based on the fact that a coherent footballing strategy means you can buy £40m players that fit the squad rather than £75m Lukakus that don’t. Look at how VDS helped run Ajax prudently and tell me growing players De Jong and De Ligt and selling them for £120m doesn’t make sense financially?

You’re a broken record, I already answered in my previous post that Woodward will likely not always take the advice, but assuming he does half the time it’s better than what we’ve got.

Explain our last six seasons? Cool, easy:

1) SAF leaves the squad in an absolute **** state and retires.
2) Moyes comes in, gets no decent players and sets us back a year behind everyone else’s squad building.
3) We play musical chairs with managers with vastly different styles who spend their first two seasons undoing the previous guy’s acquisitions and trying to build their own squad.
4) We have no coherent footballing style so everything is down to the manager.

Have Liverpool been making incremental improvements? You mean the same Liverpool that hasn’t won a PL in my lifetime? Yes, yes they have.

We can over theoreticals all day about “What if Woodward doesn’t listen to VDS?” but it’s safer to assume IF they appoint him he’ll contribute at least some value we don’t have.

You and the rest of the Woodward voodoo club seem to ignore the fact that Woodward is only a third of our problem, joined by a string of substandard or unsuitable managers who built a Frankenstein squad, not all of which is Woodward’s fault since 3/4s of the players signed are ones asked for by the managers at the time.

We at least need to try a DoF because at this point, what the **** else can we do?

 

[B]

I think he had the talent of Ronaldo and Messi but finished a long way behind them due to having much less focus on diet and training, and these things add up over the years. Also there are a lot players who are world class at their peak. Rooney had more talent than any other English player in a long time and could have been the first to be regularly competing for world player of the year every year IMO. None of this is to say he wasn’t a success regardless, but the same would apply to Ronaldo and Messi if they had scored a few hundred goals less and been down to the levels of say an Arjen Robben.

Messi & Ronaldo are anomolies, the consistency & the level both of them have got to is quite ridiculous. There's world class players, Messi & Ronaldo are probably the only 2 players in the last 10-20 years that I think reached a level above even world class.

I don't know if I'd strictly agree he could have achieved the same level as those 2, but could he for sure have lasted longer at the top? Absolutely.

I want to say he was world class at his peak. The one big issue I would have with it, is that what I would call his "peak" (2006-2010) he was inconsistent for most of it. He'd go on crazy droughts in front of goal. 2010 was his best individual season and we probably should have done the PL/CL double on the back of his performance that season. But then Rooney got injured and we ended up not winning either. After that it was kind of downhill. His inconsistent play began to dominant.

Rooney was an early bloomer, his peak was probably 19-24 I don't know what years that would have been between, which is quite odd as usually players peak is maybe 25-30. The lack of taking complete care of himself, staying off drink, cigarettes etc for sure cut his peak short whatever period you may think that was.

I don't hold any of those droughts in front of goal against him, he was more often than not the player that was sacrificed & played out of position (usually LW) to accommodate the needs of the team or to allow less versitle players to play in their favoured position. You could attribute some, but obviously not all, of those goal doughts to that.

He was a hot & cold player in front of goal, he'd go for 6 or 7 games without a goal, then score maybe 9 in the next 10.

 

[B]

We can get into genetics, which is fair. But Rooney came in heavy so often, and we know he spent plenty of time not taking care of himself. Whether it was the drinking, smoking or getting knocked literally unconscious ****ing around in his kitchen. He was done as a truly top class player at what, 28? Arguably earlier.

You also need to remember & Carragher I recall brought this up, at 28-30 Rooney had the miles of a 31-33 year old because he started so young at such a high level.

He was playing full fledged first team action for, at the time, a top 7 team in Everton in arguably the toughest league in the world at 16 years old, 38 games a season. To give you some perspective, Messi wasn't a starting first team player in La Liga for Barcelona until he was 19/20 if I'm not mistaken.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Messi & Ronaldo are anomolies, the consistency & the level both of them have got to is quite ridiculous. There's world class players, Messi & Ronaldo are probably the only 2 players in the last 10-20 years that I think reached a level above even world class.

I don't know if I'd strictly agree he could have achieved the same level as those 2, but could he for sure have lasted longer at the top? Absolutely.

Yeah, but then thing of guys like Iniesta, Xavi, Zlatan, Hazard, Lewandowski, Robben, and others have put together runs that lasted a lot longer then Rooney at his best, and all aged way more gracefully. Now Xavi, like Scholes, got deeper and deeper. But the rest were basically AM at worst, and just kept on producing.

Rooney was an early bloomer, his peak was probably 19-24 I don't know what years that would have been between, which is quite odd as usually players peak is maybe 25-30. The lack of taking complete care of himself, staying off drink, cigarettes etc for sure cut his peak short whatever period you may think that was.

I don't hold any of those droughts in front of goal against him, he was more often than not the player that was sacrificed & played out of position (usually LW) to accommodate the needs of the team or to allow less versitle players to play in their favoured position. You could attribute some, but obviously not all, of those goal doughts to that.

He was a hot & cold player in front of goal, he'd go for 6 or 7 games without a goal, then score maybe 9 in the next 10.

He turned 19 at the end of 2004. I wouldn't say those years, just because while he was super dynamic, it would be hard to call him world class, as again his play, a lot like Ronaldo's at the time, was all over the place. He was better then Ronaldo at that point, but neither was capable of being the man on a quality side yet. It wasn't until the the 06/07 season where we started seeing peak Rooney and Ronaldo imo.

Rooney's droughts came when he was a CF/SS. It was when he played in a front two alongside Saha, Ole and Tevez. Ronaldo the striker did not really come until late 07/08. By that time, Saha rarely if ever playing, Ole was retired and our attack was basically the very interchangable Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez, with Giggs or Nani hanging out on the left. Even still Rooney getting moved out to the left was an end of 08/09 thing. So he still spent the vast majority of those three seasons playing as a striker. Even with the arrival of Berba.

I am having a hard time thinking of a time outside of maybe 09/10 or 11/12 where Rooney would have even scored enough goals to have got 9 out of 10. His goal tallies weren't that big outside of the two seasons I mentioned. I think he scored 20 or more goals only 4 times.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You also need to remember & Carragher I recall brought this up, at 28-30 Rooney had the miles of a 31-33 year old because he started so young at such a high level.

He was playing full fledged first team action for, at the time, a top 7 team in Everton in arguably the toughest league in the world at 16 years old, 38 games a season. To give you some perspective, Messi wasn't a starting first team player in La Liga for Barcelona until he was 19/20 if I'm not mistaken.

I get the idea of that. I really do. And being a starter at Everton when he was 17 (he turned 17 during October of his first season) probably wasn't great for him. But the thing is, Rooney didn't play as much football as Messi or Ronaldo. He also didn't really play a crap ton every season in comparsion. He only played 60 plus matches for club and country once I believe. Messi has done this like 4-5 times. Ronaldo, maybe 10 times.

Rooney: 796 matches played between 2002 and 2018 (when he moved to MLS), an average of 49.75 matches a season.

Ronaldo: 962 matches played between 2002 and 2019 (end of last season), for an average of 56.59 matches a season.

Messi: 823 matches played between 2004 and 2019 (end of last season), for an average of 54.87 matches a season.

More over, Rooney spent a lot more time as a sub then either has in their career. Especially in what should be prime years. But even now, as Messi and Ronaldo are past their primes, they are still playing 55 plus matches every year and are the two best players on the planet still. I get the idea that Rooney played a lot as a kid. But that doesn't change how dramatically different the numbers are. Even a guy like Hazard, who has had a far stronger peak then Rooney did, has averaged 54 matches a season, even with a season where he only played 4 matches. And well, we all know about a guy like Lampard. Rooney's workhorse persona doesn't really capture reality.

 

[The Endless]

Rooney reminds me of Ricky Hatton in a way.

When they were firing, they were firing. But the discipline and commitment just wasnt there to take them to the next level.

Doesn't matter how talented you are, if you're binging on ****ty food and drink (and coke) between fights/seasons, you'll never reach your full potential.

Sterling under Pep has improved massively. Not just on the pitch, but as an overall professional. I remember when he was younger he was a bit of a party animal. But he seems to have knocked all that on the head and you can see just how good he is now. I'd put him in the top 20, maybe top 10 in the world right now.

The true greats like Ronaldo and Messi... dont have "off seasons". They dont drink. They dont party. When the seasons over they might have a nice holiday with their family. But I guarantee they are still in the gym every other day and eating healthy etc. I mean Ronaldo is what, 34? Has he ever had a bad injury? Ever? It's a testament to his professionalism.

 

[Slade W]

I don't think it would be fair to say Rooney underperformed or underachieved because at his peak, he was world class, however if he had the mentality of someone like Ronaldo, Zlatan, Giggs etc he probably would have finished his career at United.

IMO, it is fair. I agree he was one of the best players in the world (i.e. top 10) in the 09/10 and 11/12 seasons, as well as in the second half of 10/11, but he should have been able to maintain that level for longer. There was always something with Rooney, be it his weight, fitness or some off-field drama that was interfering with his performances (he had bad luck with injuries too, it must be said). IMO, it is fair to say he had an incredible career, at both an individual level and collective level, but I still think he could and should have maintained that peak level from the aforementioned seasons for longer than he did.

 

[Slade W]

A lot of people say Rooney was the best of that English generation, but for me, Gerrard was the best. He was a force of nature at his best and used to win so many games single-handedly for Liverpool (and that Liverpool team did not have as much good players as United or Chelsea at the time). He should have left Liverpool and played for a more competitive club, and perhaps then he would have the trophy cabinet that his phenomenal talent deserved, IMO. During the seasons of Gerrards peak (which was from 04-09, IMO), the only players that were unquestionably above him were Messi, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Xavi and Iniesta for me.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

A lot of people say Rooney was the best of that English generation, but for me, Gerrard was the best. He was a force of nature at his best and used to win so many games single-handedly for Liverpool (and that Liverpool team did not have as much good players as United or Chelsea at the time). He should have left Liverpool and played for a more competitive club, and perhaps then he would have the trophy cabinet that his phenomenal talent deserved, IMO. During the seasons of Gerrards peak (which was from 04-09, IMO), the only players that were unquestionably above him were Messi, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Xavi and Iniesta for me.

If you are asking me to choose between Rooney or Gerrard, I am taking Rooney. When I think of Gerrard I think of how Scholes described him, and really that is all I ever needed to know about him.

Also during that time period you described, and this is off the top of my head, I'd say Rio, Vida, Scholes, Pirlo, Torres, Eto'o, and Henry were all better. Even as Henry and Scholes were slowing down, Henry 2004-2006 was insane.

 

[Slade W]

If you are asking me to choose between Rooney or Gerrard, I am taking Rooney. When I think of Gerrard I think of how Scholes described him, and really that is all I ever needed to know about him.

Also during that time period you described, and this is off the top of my head, I'd say Rio, Vida, Scholes, Pirlo, Torres, Eto'o, and Henry were all better. Even as Henry and Scholes were slowing down, Henry 2004-2006 was insane.

What did Scholes say about him?

 

[Iceman]

We can get into genetics, which is fair. But Rooney came in heavy so often, and we know he spent plenty of time not taking care of himself. Whether it was the drinking, smoking or getting knocked literally unconscious ****ing around in his kitchen. He was done as a truly top class player at what, 28? Arguably earlier.

His lifestyle was so different to the big 2, and this was under Fergie, probably the ideal guy to be managing him.