The politics of Shang Chi

[spider-neil]

When the first trailer drops, if there is a backlash in China over certain scenes should Marvel and filmmakers course correct?

 

[Pink Ranger]

I doubt there's going to be too much backlash at this point outside of the incel-level garbage on Weibo about how "ugly" Simu Liu and Awkwafina are. This movie is about Asian-Americans, not Chinese nationals, so they need to either fire everyone, burn the script and start making a movie about Chinese nationals, or just charge ahead with the concept they have. Unlike Black Panther, I don't see Shang Chi dealing with too many Very Important Social Issues or anything specific about China's history that would cause any offense. The only major stumbling block is how they treat The Mandarin character; the amount of effort they put into finding a real ethnic Chinese lead actor makes me believe they're not going to resort to the lazy orientalist stereotypes inherent to that character.

 

[spider-neil]

I doubt there's going to be too much backlash at this point outside of the incel-level garbage on Weibo about how "ugly" Simu Liu and Awkwafina are. This movie is about Asian-Americans, not Chinese nationals, so they need to either fire everyone, burn the script and start making a movie about Chinese nationals, or just charge ahead with the concept they have. Unlike Black Panther, I don't see Shang Chi dealing with too many Very Important Social Issues or anything specific about China's history that would cause any offense. The only major stumbling block is how they treat The Mandarin character; the amount of effort they put into finding a real ethnic Chinese lead actor makes me believe they're not going to resort to the lazy orientalist stereotypes inherent to that character.

I will be very surprised if Shang Chi doesn't at least address some stereotypes.

 

[Pink Ranger]

I will be very surprised if Shang Chi doesn't at least address some stereotypes.

Maybe, but I think on the Harold and Kumar level, not like Black Panther where it's fundamental to the story's world building.

 

[spider-neil]

Maybe, but I think on the Harold and Kumar level, not like Black Panther where it's fundamental to the story's world building.

You think a predominantly with an Asian cast, Asian director, Asian crew we're going to get a by the numbers action flick? I don't see that at all. I think this movie will be at least as politically charged as Black Panther. Look at the Fu Manchu controversy and the movie hasn't even started filming.

 

[Pink Ranger]

You think a predominantly with an Asian cast, Asian director, Asian crew we're going to get a by the numbers action flick? I don't see that at all. I think this movie will be at least as politically charged as Black Panther. Look at the Fu Manchu controversy and the movie hasn't even started filming.

Except there isn't the same social consensus, especially among progressive liberals, over what constitutes racism against Asians.

 

[Dark Raven]

I will be very surprised if Shang Chi doesn't at least address some stereotypes.

Well it's hardly going to address certain stereotypes. It's not like Shang Chi will say "Oh look. People stereotype Chinese people and think that all of them can do martial arts and that they can fight. Well guess what? I can't fight at all and in fact have never been in a fight before in my life!"

As for other "stereotypes", it's not as if some of them haven't been perpetuated by Hong Kong cinema themselves. For example, the whole idea of a villainous older guy - eg a Silver Fox image - wasn't something that was created by Hollywood or Quentin Tarantino:

It comes directly from martial arts films like the Secret Rivals made by the Chinese themselves.

If Mandarin is modelled after someone like Hwang Jang Lee who plays Silver Fox, or is a cross between that character and his character Thunderfoot in Drunken Master, or his character in Snake in the Eagle's Shadow, then I don't see it as being a racist stereotype.

 

[Mad Ones]

I do like that both this movie and Mulan are driving conversations around the differences between the experiences of Chinese-Americans and people in China. Who these movies are geared toward is an interesting question.

 

[spider-neil]

Hopefully they have a consultant to give advice. I read that 'Shang Chi' translates to 'rising wind'. Someone joked 'hernia'. Embarrassing.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Hopefully they have a consultant to give advice. I read that 'Shang Chi' translates to 'rising wind'. Someone joked 'hernia'. Embarrassing.

So his power is going to be magic farts. I'm there day one then.

I do like that both this movie and Mulan are driving conversations around the differences between the experiences of Chinese-Americans and people in China. Who these movies are geared toward is an interesting question.

I think the target market for this is going to be informed more by Crazy Rich Asians than The Great Wall Wall. Hence the casting they've announced so far. Which is a good thing, IMO.

 

[spider-neil]

So his power is going to be magic farts. I'm there day one then.




I think the target market for this is going to be informed more by Crazy Rich Asians than The Great Wall Wall. Hence the casting they've announced so far. Which is a good thing, IMO.

Crazy Rich Asians flopped in China. Maybe this movie has the Asian Americans in mind than mainland China.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Crazy Rich Asians flopped in China. Maybe this movie has the Asian Americans in mind than mainland China.

I'm glad CRA flopped in China but was still considered a success. Because a lot of the movies that mainland China likes are hot steaming piles of ****ing garbage.

Make this movie for Americans first, Asian-Americans included but also other ethnicities. The pan-Asian market will still generate revenue just because it's MCU. It won't make Black Panther money, but nobody's expecting it to.

 

[spider-neil]

I'm glad CRA flopped in China but was still considered a success. Because a lot of the movies that mainland China likes are hot steaming piles of ****ing garbage.

Make this movie for Americans first, Asian-Americans included but also other ethnicities. The pan-Asian market will still generate revenue just because it's MCU. It won't make Black Panther money, but nobody's expecting it to.

I think this movie will make Black Panther money.

 

[Dark Raven]

I think this movie will make Black Panther money.

Will it? The difference here is that there already are all-Asian films within the Chinese and Hong Kong film industry. So an all-Chinese cast won't be something new to them. Crazy Rich Asians didn't quite stand out enough in their minds, and seemed more geared towards the American market.

For blacks, there isn't an African film industry that makes films on quite the same scale as the HK film industry. So they've had to rely more on Hollywood. That's why something like Black Panther was more novel to them and to the world. Is Shang Chi all that different from what has gone before?

 

[Rice Eater]

I think this movie will make Black Panther money.

I'd love to believe that but I don't think it gets close. It might not even get half way there. From what I've seen, this movie has gotten the least buzz and attention. And it's controversial in China on top of that.

I'm pumped for it but I feel like it's going to be in the Ant Man tier when it comes to box office performance. And it wouldn't shock me if most felt that Shang Chi is going to be the lowest grossing phase 4 movie

 

[Dark Raven]

As I've said in the other thread, I think they should shoot 3 different language versions of this film? One in English, one in Mandarin and one in Cantonese? Or at least 2 language versions?

Having it in Mandarin would appeal directly to Chinese audiences in mainland China. However, in Hong Kong, they speak Cantonese and don't understand Mandarin. While they could always dub it into Cantonese or have Cantonese subtitles (which is what often happens for martial arts films anyway) if they wanted to be more inclusive, they could have a Cantonese version.

Since this is directly targeting Chinese audiences, it would make sense to shoot a version where you can see Chinese characters speaking in their native language.

Having more than one version could double ticket sales and Blu-Ray sales. So it would make commercial sense. It's not like it's a whole different film. They just need to shoot some of the speaking scenes twice, which is the same as doing more than one take.

 

[Pink Ranger]

I think this movie will make Black Panther money.

If it does I owe you a bubble tea, brotha (I assume), but I'm not of that opinion. And it doesn't matter really: Black Panther is a unique piece of art that just came as a result of a lot of positives coming together at the same time and the same place. I think Disney sees Shang Chi as a role-playing value investment rather than an Earth shattering box office draw, and that's okay.

 

[BarryAllen]

I do like that both this movie and Mulan are driving conversations around the differences between the experiences of Chinese-Americans and people in China. Who these movies are geared toward is an interesting question.

Maybe we will have something like the T'Challa/Killmonger confrontation scene that represented the divide between African Americans and Africans but with Asians and Asian Americans.

A lot of these articles about China's views of Shang-Chi seem to based on outdated information from skimming a Wikipedia page rather than really knowing how cool the character is. Addressing the East/West divide properly is probably going to happen.

 

[spider-neil]

Maybe we will have something like the T'Challa/Killmonger confrontation scene that represented the divide between African Americans and Africans but with Asians and Asian Americans.

A lot of these articles about China's views of Shang-Chi seem to based on outdated information from skimming a Wikipedia page rather than really knowing how cool the character is. Addressing the East/West divide properly is probably going to happen.

That's what I'm hoping for. Confront it head-on rather than pretend it doesn't exist.

 

[Dark Raven]

Why are Netizens Hating on Marvel's Chinese Superhero Movie "Shang-Chi"?

Some have suggested a novel way of sidestepping the controversy: “If Marvel doesn’t want to insult China, change The Mandarin to The English, it’s that simple.”

This sounds like the most stupid statement and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding. If China don't want to insult their own intelligence, maybe learn some grammar!

They obviously have never heard of the concept of homonyms - words which are spelt the same but have different meanings.

The Mandarin is not named after the Mandarin dialect. He takes his name from a high-ranking bureaucrat or government official called a "Mandarin".

Sentences like the following would obviously make no sense to them:

I SAW a man with a SAW.

CAN you get me a CAN ?

I want to TRAIN my dog how to board a TRAIN.

I am not PATIENT enough to look after the PATIENT any longer.

 

[spider-neil]

 

[Pink Ranger]

Maybe we will have something like the T'Challa/Killmonger confrontation scene that represented the divide between African Americans and Africans but with Asians and Asian Americans.

Yikes, that's a hornet's nest they're poking at there. Unlike the African/African-American divide, there is not the same level of intellectualism, scholarship or mutual respect between the two camps in the Asian divide (more like 86 camps really). Look at what's going on in Hong Kong right now, and how the mainland Chinese netizens are reacting to that. Or with Taiwan and China. Or in Canada, with the arrest of Meng Wangzhou. That is way to much of a powder keg to explore in an MCU film. The closest they should get to that it "Asian American guy rediscovers his roots." Leave it at that.

 

[Dark Raven]

Yikes, that's a hornet's nest they're poking at there. Unlike the African/African-American divide, there is not the same level of intellectualism, scholarship or mutual respect between the two camps in the Asian divide (more like 86 camps really). Look at what's going on in Hong Kong right now, and how the mainland Chinese netizens are reacting to that. Or with Taiwan and China. Or in Canada, with the arrest of Meng Wangzhou. That is way to much of a powder keg to explore in an MCU film. The closest they should get to that it "Asian American guy rediscovers his roots." Leave it at that.

That's if Shang Chi is even Asian American here, or he might be pure Chinese. We don't know if Simu Liu is going to use his regular accent. Chadwick Boseman didn't play an African American.

 

[Pink Ranger]

That's if Shang Chi is even Asian American here, or he might be pure Chinese. We don't know if Simu Liu is going to use his regular accent. Chadwick Boseman didn't play and African American.

I'm pretty sure Simu is playing an Asian-American. There's countless actors in Hong Kong and China, who can speak English well, they could have chosen for this. They picked this canuck hoser for a reason. They're going for relatability and likeability for an American audience.

 

[spider-neil]

There is an assumption Shang Chi will be Asian American and based in America when in the movie he might be full Chinese based in China.