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Discussion in 'Past Marvel Series' started by flickchick85, Jan 18, 2019.
Discuss Season 2 in its entirety here. NO SPOILER TAGS NECESSARY!
10 episodes in and I think it's better than the first season. Significantly. Shoot out in episode 8 was better than anything in season 1 IMO.
Didn't like how it went to "In loving memory of Stan Lee" right after Punisher starts murdering those guys.
Season was good but alot of unbelievable stuff happened.
The shrink n jigsaw relationship was ridiculous.
Punisher took way too much damage and didn't seem to phase him after few scenes.
Nobody seemed to care Frank was "alive". Should've been a manhunt
Also it seemed like Karen wanted to get with Frank. That was weird. All the bs she gives daredevil for kicking ppls ass and she didn't care anything about Frank's killing
Jigsaw's face annoyed me all season he didn't look that bad imo.
I still really liked the show. 8/10
I think this season was overall better than season 1, but I don't think it was as focused. Punisher season 1 was a very slow burn, but it felt like 1 story. The core plot line of Punisher protecting the girl and the Billy Russo plot felt like 2 different shows, and each episode as it shifted primary focus back and forth was jarring. Much like Daredevil season 2, I felt myself caring about 1 plot line more than the other. The Billy Russo plot was much more interesting than John/Robert. The John/Robert character just had nothing to him, and even though I found myself very invested in Frank's relationship with Amy, I felt like the main threat of that plot was lackluster. Whenever John/Robert came into the show, I was always wishing we'd go back to Billy Russos (much like I always wanted to go back to the Punisher story in Daredevil season 2...though I do feel the other plot line was much stronger than Elektra/The Hand in DD S2). Did Russo's face bother me? At first it did and I do think more could have been done with it. But that said, the character himself and his arc was great. He was probably the overall highlight of the season for me.
I'm finding this season to be a chore to get through. It's very boring, and too much time is wasted on characters I do not care about, like the psychiatrist. I'm at episode 6 now, but my mind keeps wandering off. Shame, they have a great actor to play Frank, but the writing and supporting cast leaves much to be desired. I definitely think this could be a much better show in more capable hands.
I think this season was a MASSIVE step down from the first one.
I hated the way it treated women. I mentioned the hero kidnapping and physically restraining a young girl (not exactly Stockholm Swooning, but the kidnapping victim certainly developed father-daughter feelings with her kidnapper) but there were issues throughout.
I didn't care at all about either of the main plots.
I didnt care about ANY of the supporting characters, except for...oddly enough...the bartender who was then left behind for the rest of the season (last I checked, the actress isn't even listed on imdb as being on the show).
The psychiatrist being alive makes no sense...just kill her.
Madani is a TERRIBLE agent...just awful...in both seasons, really. I see no upside in keeping an incompetent character around as a prominent heroic character.
All that said...Bernthal is just so good as Frank that it got me through the season. I hope that Marvel Studios keeps him in the role and just moves forward, not mentioning or contradicting anything that happened in these two seasons.
I just finished it. I think this season was an improvement, but the stuff with Billy's doctor was awful. After he escaped, I thought we were done with her. I do appreciate how they made the attempt to turn Billy into a crime boss, but they didn't really do anything with it, but I did appreciate how he met his fate in the end with Frank and Curtis. They should have done more with Corbin Bernsen and Annette O'Toole's characters or cut them entirely. I like that Mahoney got a little more to do this time around. Really bummed this likely isn't getting another season, but I liked what we got as short lived as it was.
OK, finally got done. I was disappointed in this season (liked the first one well enough, but still liked the overall storyline of Punisher in DareDevil 2 the best) but, not enough Castle, and too much screen time of characters that were completely pointless and stupid (the NYPD, Mudani and the shrink, Curtis is not too bad, but he seems to be more of a hindrance than a help to Frank.
The whole plot line of why the girl was being hunted down was kind of overkill. And the whole story of cult like parents pushing for their son to become some politician seemed like it was ripped from the Petrelli storyline from Heroes. Not to mention this is in the same universe as Dare Devil, and we just got done with another storyline from DareDevil being involved with Fisk and his politics.
I'm just thinking they should have kept the plot more simple and not so convoluted. Perhaps a change of scenery, because not everything in Marvel has to take place in NYC for crying out loud.
Moving forward this character could really benefit from direct adaptations of the material. If this does continue, I'd like to see a new showrunner.
This was just as good if not better than the first season. It focused a little less psychologically on Frank (although it was still there), but did a great job developing the supporting cast. The action was certainly up and the seasons were less of a slow burn, but nothing felt rushed.
I didn't like the doctor's plot, although I liked that she got pushed out of a window. But the direction they went with Russo was fascinating, especially at the end where he tries to apologize for something he doesn't even remember doing only to get shot anyway. There was a lot of talk about redemption but it's not what the Punisher does.
I'll give this a 9/10. I have to think about the other shows to see exactly where it stacks up, but it's certainly near the top for me behind Daredevil Season Three.
Season 1 was a perfect 10 out of 10 season for me, so I was hoping I wouldn't be too disappointed going in.
I wasn't, I absolutely loved it. Frank as good as ever, and Billy really got his chance this season. Add the performances from the pilgrim/preacher and the kid, wow.
9/10 for me. My favourite of all the comic book series of any description.
Frank - Bernthal is great as always, barking like a mad dog and generally selling the hell out of the fights like a pro wrestler. Couple of standout sequences, particularly in the bathroom in episode 1. I didn't think much of his "Am I just as bad as Billy?" moments, I found the show too frantic to really buy into it. The staged killing of the innocent women asked some really deep questions, questions that were quickly silenced by the reveal that Russo killed them himself.
Russo - For a show that takes such glee in blood and guts, I have no idea why they opted for such restraint (budget?) on Russo's face. It really cheapens the whole story, especially when his scars are treated like a dramatic reveal. That said, I think Ben Barnes did a terrific job. He was a great bastard last season, and has a lot more to chew on here. Though I don't fully buy Krista as a character, I did buy into their relationship and Russo's semi-redemption through that relationship. I kind of wish the show had dropped his silly gang of easily corrupted veterans and just spent more time developing that bond with Krista. The final few episodes were pretty wrenching, and I was surprisingly sympathetic to him by the end. I was hoping Frank would just sit down next to the lad. That's not his style though.
Mudani - I was really digging the first few episodes of Frank and Amy's doomed road trip, and then Mudani dragged them to New York and everything got a little worse. Really not feeling Mudani's arc, especially where it ended. She was a terrible cop, and I thought she was learning that her thirst for vengeance made her a terrible cop. Then, 3 months later she's high enough in the CIA to offer Castle a job? Wut? Amber Rose Revah did fine with kinda shoddy material, but shout-out to her crazy eyes when fighting Krista.
Amy - The first episode introduced us to a pretty cool female counter-part to Frank: Beth, played by Alexa Davalos. Amy was pretty good too. It seems obvious to give Frank a surrogate child, and this hits all the beats pretty nicely. I found the drama around those photos a little limp, but John and the creepy cult were great fun early on.
Curtis - He's just a damn likeable guy isn't he? I found his behaviour in the last episode incredibly questionable though. 1) Releasing the senator to Mahoney. While I understand the moral dilema, surely Curtis understands that by freeing Frank's hostage he will likely doom Amy to die right? Hell, the senator seemed like a nice enough guy, I'm sure this would have crossed his mind too. 2) Calling Frank about Russo. Did he? I think he did. I was hoping Curtis was gonna do as asked and sit with Russo as he died. I figured he would at least do something morally neutral like call an ambulance.
John - A really interesting presence and often very intimidating. I found him superficially the better villain than Jigsaw. This lacked a lot of emotion weight though. He is really well played by Josh Stewart, at times terrifying and then deeply vulnerable. Sadly he is the best example of this season's biggest flaw. As said by others: There are 2 stories at play here and they do not cross-over at all. It bothered me a bit at first, but it's only once the season finale attempts to wrap everything up that you can see just how unrelated these things are. You're deep into the last act of the story and Frank's ultimate battle is with John, a man he still barely knows and is pretty neutral toward, while Russo - the nemesis with all the personal conflict - quietly bleeds out in a dumpster. I truly didn't know how to feel at a few points in the finale.
While it was nice to see Karen and Mahoney carry over from Daredevil, I wasn't too fond of either of their roles. Mahoney gets to be the fun-police until he sort of gives in at the end. Karen seemed really hot on Frank. I know they had a bond but did I miss the part where she loved him?
Overall the season doesn't hold up to much scrutiny, but I enjoyed it for the most part. I feel I could always do with more action, and Frank never used that damn minigun, but there were a few great sequences. 6/10
Really good detailed review, although I disagree with a lot you raise a lot of good points about the relationships involved and especially the point at the end for Billy. I really wanted him to accept his apology before shooting him as well, even though he didn't deserve it.
I really enjoyed this season, but overall I do think Season 1 was better. It was a really slow burn, but at least it did have a more cohesive story. Not seeing the Russo or Pilgrims storylines ever come together was a little disappointing since I was sure they were going to meet and team up at some point, but it never happend. Makes me me wonder why they even decided to have two villains in the show anyways when their motivations were so drastically different. Anyways, I enjoyed the performances from both Ben Barns and Josh Stuart even though they didn't quite reach top tier villain status for me. They each had their moments of badassery and when the carnage was on screen it was pretty glorious. The negatives really do bog this season down though, especially the stuff with Christa which was just ridiculous and super unbelievable and I can't say I was a big fan of what that did with Mudani this season either. Some of the writing for the supporting characters was the biggest problem IMO, although the performances were all really solid. Curtis ended up being a pretty awesome addition this season too. It saddens me that we won't get anymore seasons after this because throughout you could tell Bernthal was bringing his A game in terms of the brutal action sequences and the more emotional scenes showing just how great of a versatile actor he is and I don't believe they will ever find a guy who could pull this kind of role off nearly as well, but hey they can always try.
This season was the definition of a mixed bag for me. The villains were poorly handled, imo, but Frank was even better this season than last, so that made up for a lot.
-Bernthal/Frank was so damn great this season.
-The action was A+ all the way through.
-It took a while, but I eventually liked Amy and her dynamic with Frank.
-I never hated Madani like some did last season, but I really enjoyed her this season.
-The last few episodes were the strongest. Episode 10 might be my favorite of the show, and the episode with Karen was fantastic too.
-Didn't like the handling of the Frank/Amy dynamic in early episodes. It seemed like the writers intentionally wanted us to find Amy annoying in her first few eps so that we'd still think Frank was "cool" for treating her that way, and yeah, that just rubs me the wrong way. It's stuff like that you can tell were written by men, lol.
-Mahoney got a bit annoying this season.
-Pilgrim was a garbage villain. I got nothing from him. Not menace, not sympathy, just...boredom. And once his "bosses'" motivations were revealed, they were so flimsy, I was like "really??? That's it?!" So yeah, they sucked too.
-The Russo/doctor storyline was AWFUL. He was more interesting to me last season, her character sucked, and his whole memory issue just felt like they were stalling 'til they were ready for him to become an actual threat, which leads me to my other big complaint, which was...
-the stakes/urgency level was too low for too damn long. Midway through the season, it was still like, "we have to find and stop Russo!" ...from his path toward becoming a petty criminal? Oh no, he's planning a robbery. Stand by while I clutch my pearls. I mean sure, he could've injured people as can happen when people commit crimes, but it ain't exactly the sense of danger we had when Kingpin was out, lol. And as for the other threat, after Frank and Amy left for NYC, no one seemed to be in much of a hurry to kill Amy anymore, and the motivations/goals of the "Big Bads" were still unclear so it was just like, ok, some blackmailers got killed... is there even a greater threat at work here?
So yeah, I definitely wouldn't consider it a step above season 1, though there were still some improvements. Overall, I'd put it in the middle of the road of the Marvel Netflix pack, as I still enjoyed it more than both seasons of Iron Fist and Luke Cage.
Disappointed by this full season
Russo and Pilgrim dont meet each other
Madani is still the worst character to me. Russo's psychiatrist was horrible. Amber Rose Revah can't use a convincing American accent to save her life.
If they wanted a government agent to interact with Frank, couldn't they have used one from the comics instead of making one up?
I think what they needed to do was focus on one major plot this season. They ran the evil right wing billionaires and Russo at the same time and they were too disparate. They needed to choose one or the other and focus on that. Or finish one and then go onto the next.
If I have one major complaint for the entire series since this is basically the last season...why do we have to wait for the end of season 2 for Frank Castle to finally become The Punisher? End of season 2 for his own freaking series.
I'm not sure the writers/producers of this show really understand the character or even like him.
That was freaking awesome (just finished). Wow. Finally a Netflix/Marvel show without all the boring parts. Are you not entertained??
Crap ton of action. Character actually wearing his uniform for pretty much everything important.
The last 3 seconds of the show alone were worth it. Of course I would have loved to see exactly that expanded for 12 episodes alone.
The Punisher has been my favorite character for 30 years. And I'd say this could be the best we're ever gonna get. Most definitely the best Marvel/Netflix show to date. Complainers are ridiculous.
I'd go so far as to say, considering both seasons, it's the best thing marvel have put on the screen in any format.
I might be in the minority but I liked Pilgrim, could they have done more with him? sure. But he was the first antagonist I saw that actually seemed like a threat to Frank. Like I said in the other thread, if Pilgrim was at a hundred percent I could totally buy him killing Frank. Russo's end was anticlimactic, but it's kinda in tone with the show so...eh. it is what it is. It did bug me they didn't acknowledge all the other crazy **** that went down in Harlem and hell's kitchen. I also REALLY wanted Frank to encounter Typhoid Mary, Dex, Kingpin, or even Kingpin Luke Cage down the line. Oh well ...
I wasn't as impressed with it as the first season, but Bernthal is still amazing. I really hope they find a way to integrate him into the MCU somewhere down the line. Here's how I'd rank it among the rest of the Netflix seasons...
1. Daredevil Season One
2. Daredevil Season Three
3. Daredevil Season Two
4. Jessica Jones Season One
5. Luke Cage Season Two
6. The Punisher Season One
7. The Defenders
8. Luke Cage Season One
9. The Punisher Season Two
10. Iron Fist Season Two
11. Jessica Jones Season Two
12. Iron Fist Season One
Overall a decent season 2, not as gripping as season 1 and a little choppy from some episodes but Bernthal holds the whole thing together just about and makes up for some of the lesser side characters and messy side plots of this season.
I think Micro and his family were far more of a compelling sidekick and subplot in S1 compared to Amy and the other stuff here, also the ending of the first was far more brutal, memorable and intense than this one. The action overall was probably better here but that alone cant make up for the rest and as others eluded to the whole Russo thing was overplayed as his scars really werent all that bad and didnt warrant the number of episodes it took to build up to a big reveal which didnt add up to much although the acting was done well by Barnes and the rest of the cast to be fair.
However this is still the definitive version of The Punisher and will be sad if it is the end of the road for this one, just deserves a better arc next time if it ever happens but I hope we get more as they have nailed the character. In terms of ranking it probably sits below all the Daredevils and Season 1 but is above all the other Netflix shows comfortably for me, some great moments in a decent season.
I liked Pilgrim, but the writers were indecisive on how they wanted to use him.
I was never a huge fan of the character to begin with. Considering he's a neck beards wet dream and all (along with similar R-Rated action movie characters from the 80's). But Bernthal is great as the character. The season was good for what it was, I have no real complaint. Well, actually one. I feel when it comes to Frank's actions the writers seem like they want to have their cake and eat it too. That's the only thing that bugs me about the show. For example I was glad Madani finally was so over Frank's excuses at that meeting with curtis. Then later in the season shes like "he's just missunderstood!". And I'm like, ***** really?? . Frank is a ****ed up Psycho with a sob story who goes after acceptable targets. Das it.
To the earlier point about him meeting other more dangerous people in the "Netflixverse", I assumed it was going to happen eventually. But we'll likely never see him go after Mafia Don Luke Cage
Governments blow people up by remote control. Innocent civilians die, and it's called collateral damage.
Frank is just a more extreme version of other costumed superheroes and vigilantes.
He's no more of a psycho with a sob story than Batman or Spider-Man.