The Punisher The Punisher - General Discussion Thread

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

I've seen a few mentions on the internet but what does everyone think about Frank working best as a foil to other more heroic superheroes like DD or any of the other Netflix heroes?

Some folks are saying since he kills and doesn't really have anyone to "keep him in check" this is going to come off as a mentally unstable veteran murdering people (which is what Frank is, duh haha). That may turn some folks off who don't really get the Punisher and what he's brought to the table in the comics.

Personally, I don't see the public having a problem with Jason Bourne, Bond, or any of the other seemingly super human agents of destruction in the blockbuster film world.

 

[chamber-music]

I've seen a few mentions on the internet but what does everyone think about Frank working best as a foil to other more heroic superheroes like DD or any of the other Netflix heroes?

Some folks are saying since he kills and doesn't really have anyone to "keep him in check" this is going to come off as a mentally unstable veteran murdering people (which is what Frank is, duh haha). That may turn some folks off who don't really get the Punisher and what he's brought to the table in the comics.

Personally, I don't see the public having a problem with Jason Bourne, Bond, or any of the other seemingly super human agents of destruction in the blockbuster film world.

A lot of moral hand wringing about the Punisher has come to the forefront in recent years. Some people see the characters as a hangover from late twentieth century. Back when crime levels were extremely high in parts of urban decaying New York City and stories about gritty violent urban vigilante anti-heroes were all the rage.

The character was always somewhat controversial due to being a unapologetic killer but that certainly isn't unique in comics with violent unstable anti-hero characters like Wolverine, Moon Knight and so on existing.

The Punisher is also extremely popular among law enforcement and members of the military which makes some people deeply uncomfortable.

There is a uncomfortable truth with The Punisher in that there is a fantasy wish fulfillment element to the character. With superheroes the fantasy element comes from a person with incredible powers or skills battling villains and standing for moral virtues/ethics. With a anti-hero like The Punisher it is the fantasy of seeing a extremely skilled person take out mostly real world villains. Villains who are often truly awful. The Punisher writers like Mike Baron would take inspiration for the foes the Punisher faced straight from the news headlines (people smugglers, serial rapists, shady Wall street fat cats, terrorists, gangs, ect).

That blood thirsty side of human nature for 'old testament justice', vengeance and revenge is what some people feel the Punisher represents so anyone who says they like the character can be greeted negatively in some circles.

Entertainment from villainous or anti-hero characters is certainly nothing new in literature, film or television.

Death Wish had multiple movies and has a remake coming out. People like the John Wick movies despite the fact he goes on murderous rampages because someone killed his dog or blew up his house. Dexter lasted for 8 seasons. The Rambo film series was popular.

The showrunner for this show is the a writer and exec producer for the Hannibal TV series.

The Punisher most people under 30 is familiar with from the comics is from the Ennis version. Ennis max version is extremely violent and emotionally remote at time. There are older Punisher comic runs in which the character is written more like a eighties/nineties action movie character. The Punisher could function somewhat with the normal society. He formed relationships and he would engage in witty banter Microchip or whoever else he teamed up with on missions. The Punisher didn't even always kill villains back in some of the older comics.

 

[Loki882]

Superhero comics have frequently struggled to come up with a good explanation for why Frank's methods are wrong actually, at least in the context of the clearly "much more dangerous than the real world" MU. It tends to devolve into a lot of self-righteous platitudes.

Especially when you've got characters like Black Widow, Thor, Wolverine, etc, who have little qualms about killing if they feel it necessary as Avengers.

It's part of why many writers struggle to integrate him well into the mainstream MU (hence stuff like Punisher MAX being so well-regarded). He shines a light on the inherent contradiction built into the structure of superhero comics by his very existence.

 

[Loki882]

I didn't see anything in the trailer that said they are in a relationship. Did I miss something?

"Relationship" doesn't automatically have to mean "romance." She tends to gravitate towards mentally unwell guys, and being friends with Frank tends to not work out all that well in the long-term for most people.

 

[Punitore]

i've just seen shot caller where jon bernthal sports a slicked back hairstyle and i have to say he doesn't look that good, too polished, prefer the punisher hairstyle now that i've seen that.

what do you think?

 

[TheVileOne]

When you get right down to it, superheroes and costumed vigilantes themselves are kinda fascist.

 

[StarLord]

That was one solid trailer.

 

[Dasher10]

What if Punisher drops on Christmas? Netflix's present to us?

 

[ludovica]

When you get right down to it, superheroes and costumed vigilantes themselves are kinda fascist.

I find this a common misconception: the catch is that most super powered ones are active in a world populated by super powered threats that common law enforcement is underprepared to face.
Of course we almost never see authorities get competent about it, or else we would lose the need for our protagonists.
In any case I would agree vigilantism in the real world and even the fictional ones straddles really close to fascism, but it is never automatically so: Spider-Man for example, simply enforces civilian arrests, never taking justice in his own hands.
For non powered ones, Batman is more borderline, with his unchecked controlling ways and the Punisher certainly could qualify, with all the murdering and what have you.
But they all inhabit a world at least slightly worse than our, making possible they are just the only resort left: that's up to the reader.

I'm in no way condoning any form of real vigilantism, I absolutely oppose it but not for ideological reasons, and I consider myself strongly anti-fascist.
Just saying that in a world with super beings the politics of power and civil activism would be quite different from ours, in ways depending only on the word of God of the author on a by case scenario.

I would never put the fascist label on Frank simply because he's superhumanly competent at what he does, again putting him in dynamics that are purely fictional and depending on editorial mandates.

 

[chamber-music]

A lot of city based superheroes do things like beating criminal suspects so bad they need to be hospitalized. They go far beyond simply citizen arresting criminal suspects and handing them over to the authorities.

The violence occurs in the comics because of the need for action based confrontations but in real life most of these vigilante superheroes would be facing assault charges and lawsuits.

Daredevil in the comics has killed people and violently assaulted many others. Even in the Tv show he dropped a Daredevil threw a guy off a roof in season one which could of easily killed or crippled the guy. Being against murder but being ok with crippling and maiming people doesn't make you all that morally superior.

 

[ludovica]

Of course in the real world it would be different.
Also, in the fictional one it looks like it to the fictional general public, but us, the readers or viewers, know those are not suspects but real and true criminals.
Not saying they deserve punishment (eh eh) from guys in masks who have no jurisdiction, but again, different rules for a different moral horizon: one could make an argument that super-humans do not have to play by the same ethical standards or obligations of "inferior" common people, and instead have to embrace their superiority, it's really subjective and tied to the writer's view.

The standardized version of the first of them all, Supes, is also adamant in just stepping in when necessary and only with proportionate measures.
I've been reading or rereading a lot of '40s comics lately, and while for example one could find quite extreme fascist ideas in early Archie superheroes, at the same time another publisher, Lev Gleason, published masked types firmly in the progressive and even leftist camp. What's startling is that those comics where explicitly for kids, spirit of the time I guess.

I tend to normally prefer the characters who firmly adhere to current civil standards of conduct, like Spider-Man or Captain America, but I also appreciate a bit of diversity: Daredevil from the 80s onward has been explicitly borderline.
Frank IMO works best when portrayed as deeply wounded and broken, I really like how they introduced him in DD s2: he's not justified but we can empathize.
That's an enough buffer for me between the undeniable violent revenge fantasy implicit in the character and a straight apologism of vigilantism.
I think and hope they will progress in that direction, hopefully towards an Ennis' Max run influenced arrive point.

 

[metaphysician]

*cough* I would note that, *usually*, Frank is portrayed as doing his due diligence, and taking efforts to make sure no one gets caught in the crossfire. There are times when he's written as shooting petty thieves and jaywalkers, but its the exception, not the rule. The MCU version seems to be going with this pretty well: he's not going around murdering people with parking tickets, or petty criminals in general. He's waging a war against specific organized crime operations. Note the scene with the black market dude- Frank might have been increasingly annoyed with him, but he wasn't going to kill him. . . *until* he dropped the word that he was selling child porn.

Basically, there's nothing wrong with Frank, damaged as he is, having some self control and basic common sense. He does not need to be his most flanderized possible portrayal.

 

[dmcreif]

*cough* I would note that, *usually*, Frank is portrayed as doing his due diligence, and taking efforts to make sure no one gets caught in the crossfire. There are times when he's written as shooting petty thieves and jaywalkers, but its the exception, not the rule. The MCU version seems to be going with this pretty well: he's not going around murdering people with parking tickets, or petty criminals in general. He's waging a war against specific organized crime operations. Note the scene with the black market dude- Frank might have been increasingly annoyed with him, but he wasn't going to kill him. . . *until* he dropped the word that he was selling child porn.

Basically, there's nothing wrong with Frank, damaged as he is, having some self control and basic common sense. He does not need to be his most flanderized possible portrayal.

Frank has more standards here than he does in the comics. bad place, even fully redeemed crooks were among his targets in the comics.

 

[Silvermoon]

Supposedly the new issue of Total Film has Oct. 13th listed as the release date?

https://imgur.com/gallery/jMPx8

Close up of bottom right corner: https://i.redd.it/g9ha324nzfnz.jpg

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstud...al_film_confirms_the/?st=j7vzere0&sh=822a46e8

(anyone here with the magazine that can confirm that this isn't a photoshop?)

 

[chamber-music]

Frank has more standards here than he does in the comics. bad place, even fully redeemed crooks were among his targets in the comics.

Depends on which comics. How ruthless the Punisher is varies.

There are Punisher comics in which he spends months methodically planning, carrying out surveillance on targets, gathering intelligence, ect before making a move.

In a number of War Journal Punisher comics Frank would take on a new identity and go undercover in criminal organisations before taking them down.

 

[TheVileOne]

*cough* I would note that, *usually*, Frank is portrayed as doing his due diligence, and taking efforts to make sure no one gets caught in the crossfire. There are times when he's written as shooting petty thieves and jaywalkers, but its the exception, not the rule. The MCU version seems to be going with this pretty well: he's not going around murdering people with parking tickets, or petty criminals in general. He's waging a war against specific organized crime operations. Note the scene with the black market dude- Frank might have been increasingly annoyed with him, but he wasn't going to kill him. . . *until* he dropped the word that he was selling child porn.

Basically, there's nothing wrong with Frank, damaged as he is, having some self control and basic common sense. He does not need to be his most flanderized possible portrayal.

To me it's hard to argue that when he looked like a madman in that hospital with that shotgun. He says one shot one kill and that Karen wasn't in danger, but he wasn't exactly doing a surgical strike with a sniper rifle. He was running around that hospital with a freaking shotgun, and doesn't that type of weapon have some spread?

 

[Punisher_MAX]

To me it's hard to argue that when he looked like a madman in that hospital with that shotgun. He says one shot one kill and that Karen wasn't in danger, but he wasn't exactly doing a surgical strike with a sniper rifle. He was running around that hospital with a freaking shotgun, and doesn't that type of weapon have some spread?

Shotgun spread isn't all that crazy especially if it has a choke on it.

 

[TheVileOne]

Shotgun spread isn't all that crazy especially if it has a choke on it.

Did he have a choke on it and did it look like he was taking special care not to hit Karen? It didn't look like it the way he was wielding that thing. It's just that when he said that, it was a tough explanation to swallow.

I'm just saying in that particular depiction, it didn't come off like he was trying to avoid collateral damage.

 

[Punisher_MAX]

Did he have a choke on it and did it look like he was taking special care not to hit Karen? It didn't look like it the way he was wielding that thing. It's just that when he said that, it was a tough explanation to swallow.

I'm just saying in that particular depiction, it didn't come off like he was trying to avoid collateral damage.

At the distance he was shooting the spread wouldnt have been more than a foot in diameter so the grouping would be pretty tight. I've shot shotguns before and it isnt until a decent distance that it actually spreads so he could technically be really precise with his hits and could honestly hit them at will if he really wanted to.

Granted that scene came off more Terminator than anything and really wasn't the tactical Frank we all know so yeah I can see the issue.

 

[TheVileOne]

At the distance he was shooting the spread wouldnt have been more than a foot in diameter so the grouping would be pretty tight. I've shot shotguns before and it isnt until a decent distance that it actually spreads so he could technically be really precise with his hits and could honestly hit them at will if he really wanted to.

Granted that scene came off more Terminator than anything and really wasn't the tactical Frank we all know so yeah I can see the issue.

I can understand that, I just think it wasn't the best way to execute that scene and then have him all like "I knew what I was doing. You were in no danger." It just didn't sound believable. And really, it was the only main issue I had with writing of Frank the whole season.

 

[P Supreme]

coming from someone who enjoyed Punisher War Zone
I EFFIN LOVED THIS TRAILER can't wait to see this

Only seen Bernthal in wolf of wall street before this [Not a fan of walking dead]

and he kills as frank

 

[Loki882]

Depends on which comics. How ruthless the Punisher is varies.

There are Punisher comics in which he spends months methodically planning, carrying out surveillance on targets, gathering intelligence, ect before making a move.

In a number of War Journal Punisher comics Frank would take on a new identity and go undercover in criminal organisations before taking them down.

He also doesn't kill every criminal that he meets. He uses some of them as informants for example.

Also in Matt Fraction's run, he was able to form a semi-cordial dynamic with The Rhino (during his "I want to try and be good now" phase) of all people as well.

 

[MurkeNyou]

Read the Punisher since the late 80's, never was a fan of him mingling with superheroes/ supervillains, because of the mess made of him in the 616 Universe over the last 25 years. I like the MAX stuff, probably because it's not mainline continuity.

 

[Random490]

I wouldn't mind having Frank go up against a super human at some point. It would be very interesting to see how someone very grounded like Punisher would fight a person like. Still love The Russian sequence in the Thomas Jane movie. And it would also be great to see his reaction to a situation like the Defenders.

Besides that I agree that Punisher should be in his own sphere.

 

[metaphysician]

Depends on which comics. How ruthless the Punisher is varies.

There are Punisher comics in which he spends months methodically planning, carrying out surveillance on targets, gathering intelligence, ect before making a move.

In a number of War Journal Punisher comics Frank would take on a new identity and go undercover in criminal organisations before taking them down.

Not coincidentally, I am a much bigger fan of those kind of ( generally pre-Ennis ) stories. Ennis gets praise, but for all intents and purposes he was writing a new character, basically unrelated to the one Miller and Dixon wrote.