The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - - - Part 12

[TheVileOne]

I thought Kingpin was a pretty non-grey area when he showed up in Fox's Daredevil. even though Kingpin originated in Spider-Man.

 

[Zarex]

I thought Kingpin was a pretty non-grey area when he showed up in Fox's Daredevil. even though Kingpin originated in Spider-Man.

The Sony Leaks included a memo from someone at Marvel ( I believe it was Ike his own self) alerting Sony that they would be using Mr. Fisk for the DD TV show. He appears to be in a rights sharing situation similar to Pietro and Wanda.

 

[Spiderine]

I recall Kingpin showing up on that Mtv Spiderman cartoon years ago and it was the Micheal Clark Duncan version from the movie. Sony must have gotten permission from Fox.

Years later Greg Weisman stated Kingpin was off limits for his Spectacular toon. Led me to believe he was with Fox.

Im not to worried about the sharing thing long as Marvel has access to them. I can see Marvel getting Spidey and FF related characters soon enough. That Xmen bubble is going to be the last holdout. Fox will milk that for years.

 

[ADollarADay]

If you think about it, it's only been eight years since Disney owned Marvel. In those eight short years, Marvel has regained the rights to Daredevil, Elektra, Punisher, Ghost-Rider, Ego, Namor and Man-Thing (among others), and they've gained creative control of Spider-Man and solidified creative control of Hulk. Plus they've obtained shared control of X-Men TV rights.

At this point their task is relatively simple and straight-forward:

1. Regain full or partial control of FF

2. Regain full or partial control of X-Men

3. Work to gain full control of all characters

Considering the FF situation, that's almost certainly the next, easiest domino to fall, and after that happens, they can refocus on other remaining rights.

While we can't say with certainty exactly how things will play out in the next eight years of Disney/Marvel, I think it's an absolute sure bet that Marvel will have much more control of their characters than they do now.

That is untrue. They always had veto rights to x-men tv shows and the rights have always been shared since the 1993 contract as interpreted by the court. Nobody knows what they gained from allowing Fox to go ahead with 2 X-Men Live action tv shows they could have easily vetoed. My guess at this point is they just got participation.

The Sony Leaks included a memo from someone at Marvel ( I believe it was Ike his own self) alerting Sony that they would be using Mr. Fisk for the DD TV show. He appears to be in a rights sharing situation similar to Pietro and Wanda.

I know it's a long shot - and I'm not doubting you - but do you have a link?

This is what I got from the emails I saved:

I. Kingpin and all Villains related to Kingpin (Marvel will rep and warrant to the status of Kingpin; SPE also requests more info on the Fox rights now) – SPE is granted the rights to Kingpin and all villains related to Kingpin subject to the exclusive Daredevil grant to Fox (Note: a schedule will be created). Thus, SPE is frozen from using Kingpin and Kingpin villains that are subject to Fox’s grant (“Frozen Kingpin Villains”) and Fox may use such characters during the term of Fox's rights. There is no freeze on SPE’s use of Kingpin villains that are identified on the character schedule as being related to Spider-Man and falling outside the Daredevil grant (“SPE Exclusive Kingpin Villains”). However, if the exclusive Daredevil universe grant to Fox reverts to Marvel or at anytime Kingpin is no longer subject to the Fox grant, then Kingpin shall be shared by SPE and Marvel, meaning SPE shall have the same rights to Kingpin as SPE has for other Approved Characters but that such rights are non-exclusive and may also be exploited by Marvel in Daredevil movies/TV shows. [SPE would also like to discuss whether there is acceptable way of distinguishing the Kingpin character as used by SPE from the Kingpin character as used by Marvel.] In the case of reversion and shared rights, each party would provide the other reasonable advance notice before using Kingpin. The treatment of Frozen Kingpin Villains upon reversion from Fox is TBD (either shared as above or exclusive to SPE).

If they signed as per the above, and nothing changed, then the rights are obviously shared. However, I don't recall an email from Marvel saying they were going to use Fisk for the DD TV show (and as per the above, they would have to give them a heads up).

I've read some fairly firm statements that Marvel has Namor, but there are a lot of things that are still not 100% confirmed.

That's a reasonably good, useful chart, but don't take it as gospel.

The "confirmation" on Namor reverting came from Joe Quesada on a Fatman on Batman podcast. Quesada has been wrong plenty of times, so people took it with a grain of salt. The latest accurate info from someone who is more credible (i.e. Feige) was that no one else can use him, but it's still complicated.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

That is untrue. They always had veto rights to x-men tv shows and the rights have always been shared since the 1993 contract as interpreted by the court. Nobody knows what they gained from allowing Fox to go ahead with 2 X-Men Live action tv shows they could have easily vetoed. My guess at this point is they just got participation.

.

Eight years ago, Marvel did not have the ability to make X-Men TV shows. Today X-Men TV shows are being made and Marvel has a hand in it.

 

[2kt09]

Eight years ago, Marvel did not have the ability to make X-Men TV shows. Today X-Men TV shows are being made and Marvel has a hand in it.

There's no concrete split b/w animation and live-action. The only reasons we can go on as to why Marvel Entertainment chose not to do a live-action one after Mutant X was because of being cautious over another possible lawsuit and because the only other attempt was a short-lived Blade series signifying they neither have the funds nor the interest.

Marvel wouldn't do an X-Men series without a co-production because there's no incentive and they have been pushing the Inhumans.

 

[ADollarADay]

Eight years ago, Marvel did not have the ability to make X-Men TV shows. Today X-Men TV shows are being made and Marvel has a hand in it.

They have always had the ability, but haven't done anything since the Mutant X lawsuit, presumably being extra careful to avoid another lawsuit. This deal was a benefit to Fox and pretty much no net gain for Marvel. If, and only if, Legion and the forthcoming X-Men show were part of the MCU, then I would maybe agree with you, but they aren't, so I don't.

Read this and the following posts to get a better understanding of the X-Men TV rights. TLDR: Marvel always had them.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=35530593#post35530593

There's no concrete split b/w animation and live-action. The only reasons we can go on as to why Marvel Entertainment chose not to do a live-action one after Mutant X was because of being cautious over another possible lawsuit and because the only other attempt was a short-lived Blade series signifying they neither have the funds nor the interest.

Marvel wouldn't do an X-Men series without a co-production because there's no incentive and they have been pushing the Inhumans.

Exactly.

 

[Darepool]

They get $$$ and different avenues of exposure for the mutants. All which ties in nicely to the new X-books and increased merch here and on the way.... It doesn't need to be any more complicated then that.

 

[wobbly]

At the end of day, with how things stood, neither Marvel or Fox could do an X-Men TV show without getting into bed with each other for it.

Marvel did reserve the rights for TV live action in the 93 agreement (that's made clear in the Mutant X lawsuit papers), but would need Fox's permission/consent to do so, and likewise Fox couldn't move on doing one at all without getting Marvels consent first, since Marvel held those rights.

It was a stand off, and we can only guess what, if any, extra dealing behind the scenes made them come to an agreement when Fox came a calling asking the Mouse for a favour. At face value it seems Marvel do simply get participation: A cut of the profits, exposure for their product (like they need it...), and a producer credit.

There may well have been more to it we just don't know about yet, there also may not. I've said before that this deal was a great opportunity for Disney to play hard ball and get something significant back from Fox: Fox wanted the shows, Disney didn't need them, so Disney did have the upper hand for any bargaining.

But until whatever extras of the deal might be comes to light (if at all) I'd have to say I'm surprised and disappointed if they did just take the deal as it appears so far.

 

[Zarex]

I know it's a long shot - and I'm not doubting you - but do you have a link?

This is what I got from the emails I saved:

If they signed as per the above, and nothing changed, then the rights are obviously shared. However, I don't recall an email from Marvel saying they were going to use Fisk for the DD TV show (and as per the above, they would have to give them a heads up).

Here it is!:

From: Cohen, Tom <tcohen@marvel.com>
To: O'Connor, Rachel
Sent: Wed Dec 11 10:22:15 2013
Subject: Kingpin Character Notice
Dear Rachel,

We recently announced a deal with Netflix whereby we are producing and distributing a Daredevil live action show on their platform. Please consider this email notice that we intend to use Wilson Fisk, aka the Kingpin, Vanessa (his wife), and other Kingpin Characters and elements in that show. The characters are anticipated to first appear on or about January 15, 2015 and the Kingpin related IP will also appear in subsequent episodes. There are currently thirteen episodes ordered.

Best regards,
Tom

 

[Dasher10]

I really feel like Fox are trying to establish the FF on screen before working out a deal with Marvel so that Fox still has control over casting before they merge universes with an event film.

 

[VenomsMom]

Fox got a couple of critically acclamed shows on their network while Disney made the fantabulous Inhumans no one will be watching. Marvel got sucker punched right in the gut again by Fox. Disney had the upper hand and could have got more. If the show aired against Inhumans guess which one I am watching.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Marvel has been promoting the Fox shows and they're obviously getting a cut of the Fox shows. Even though they're on Fox, I think Marvel feels they are full partners and they want them to succeed - particularly because Marvel is struggling with their own shows.

If Marvel didn't want Fox to make those shows, they wouldn't have let them, but they came to agreement that Marvel liked, so obviously Marvel feels success of those shows is good for them and they're fully behind them.

 

[wobbly]

Fox got a couple of critically acclamed shows on their network while Disney made the fantabulous Inhumans no one will be watching. Marvel got sucker punched right in the gut again by Fox. Disney had the upper hand and could have got more. If the show aired against Inhumans guess which one I am watching.

Can't blame Fox for making a good show and Disney for not. All the blame for Inhumans lies with Buck & Loeb..

 

[VenomsMom]

Marvel has been promoting the Fox shows and they're obviously getting a cut of the Fox shows. Even though they're on Fox, I think Marvel feels they are full partners and they want them to succeed - particularly because Marvel is struggling with their own shows.

If Marvel didn't want Fox to make those shows, they wouldn't have let them, but they came to agreement that Marvel liked, so obviously Marvel feels success of those shows is good from them and they're fully behind them.

I know they get a cut and producer credits. That is my point. Why throw support behind something you don't have full control over. Marvel has it's own catalog of characters that can feature on Disney own platforms and Netflix which is ending. Fox wanted this more and Marvel had way more leverage to get more. They both got in bed but Fox look like they got more pleasure out of this rendezvous.

 

[VenomsMom]

I really feel like Fox are trying to establish the FF on screen before working out a deal with Marvel so that Fox still has control over casting before they merge universes with an event film.

This will never happen. Marvel had no reason to deal with fox making FF films

 

[UltimatePyro9]

Can't blame Fox for making a good show and Disney for not. All the blame for Inhumans lies with Buck & Loeb..

And Perlmutter for pushing and rushing the Inhumans thing. Marvel still makes some decent shows, though. AOS, Daredevil, Jessica Jones and Luke Cage are still enjoyable to watch, even if they have flaws in them.

 

[Darepool]

I would call some of those show more then 'decent'

 

[Darepool]

I've said before that this deal was a great opportunity for Disney to play hard ball and get something significant back from Fox: Fox wanted the shows, Disney didn't need them, so Disney did have the upper hand for any bargaining.

But until whatever extras of the deal might be comes to light (if at all) I'd have to say I'm surprised and disappointed if they did just take the deal as it appears so far.

Another thing I found confusing was the Deadpool animation deal. Marvel owns the animation rights to the character so they could have taken the concept anywhere, like Netflix. Yet Loeb goes to FX. Even if he wanted Glover to do it, I'm sure he could do so at another company. I'm not complaining, but given the circumstances it makes you wonder about the decision.

The good news out of this is the two companies have started working together. FF may be realistic to return, but the mutants will be at Fox for a LOOOONG time, so better to build bridges rather then tear them down.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I know they get a cut and producer credits. That is my point. Why throw support behind something you don't have full control over. Marvel has it's own catalog of characters that can feature on Disney own platforms and Netflix which is ending. Fox wanted this more and Marvel had way more leverage to get more. They both got in bed but Fox look like they got more pleasure out of this rendezvous.

That makes sense and I would have agreed 6 months ago. But I'm looking at the landscape and thinking: "Maybe Marvel was smarter than us and recognized their own weaknesses." If Marvel had refused to let Fox make their shows and put all their eggs in the Inhuman's basket, they'd be wallowing right now, but by spreading their bets around, they're doing okay.

And do any of us really know the details of the deal? I suspect that Fox is giving up a pretty hefty cut and that's all profit to Marvel with no risk.

If Marvel ends up making more money on Legion than Inhumans, it's hard to call that a bad decision. Somebody made a bad decision in allowing such a crappy Inhumans effort to happen, but that's a different story.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

The good news out of this is the two companies have started working together.

This is my big take away. For all the noise and bluster, the simple reality is that both companies are smart enough and rational enough to cooperate and do what makes sense when it comes to making good shows and putting money in their pockets.

Until Fox pushes forward with FF Kids, I'll continue to believe that common sense will triumph over lunacy and Fox won't continue to throw money away for no apparent reason other than trying to spite Marvel.

 

[EssayM]

FF should definitely go back to Marvel.

With X-Men, though, I think the ideal would be something that allows Fox to keep making X-Men properties while also allowing the established characters and actors from that franchise to show up in MCU properties from time to time. That way, you get to give the fans what they want without the nightmare of recasting and rebooting 50 kajillion characters from a relatively stable franchise (Apocalypse was bad, but it certainly wasn't "burn it to the ground and start over" bad). If you can get Ryan Reynolds as Deadpool to cameo in an MCU property, that's all you really need.

 

[2kt09]

They get $$$ and different avenues of exposure for the mutants. All which ties in nicely to the new X-books and increased merch here and on the way.... It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

To what extent though? In this next post you realize it.

Another thing I found confusing was the Deadpool animation deal. Marvel owns the animation rights to the character so they could have taken the concept anywhere, like Netflix. Yet Loeb goes to FX. Even if he wanted Glover to do it, I'm sure he could do so at another company. I'm not complaining, but given the circumstances it makes you wonder about the decision.

Loeb & co. must be well aware that FX is smaller than the networks they typically profit from. This exchange outside of maybe The Gifted feels like chump change or they really wanted talented showrunners to do what they do.

If Marvel ends up making more money on Legion than Inhumans, it's hard to call that a bad decision. Somebody made a bad decision in allowing such a crappy Inhumans effort to happen, but that's a different story.

If they make more money on Legion, that's insanely significant because Legion is both cheaper & intentionally made to be as niche as possible.
Of course, it would be great to get higher ratings, but FX's standards to keep a show on air might be far lower than others.

 

[Darepool]

It's significant enough to make the deal. I understand why they'd do it in general, but the FX decision is a bit puzzling. They need Fox for the X-Men shows, but not for DP. It may be as simple as going to where the good show runners they wanted are.

 

[Dasher10]

FF should definitely go back to Marvel.

With X-Men, though, I think the ideal would be something that allows Fox to keep making X-Men properties while also allowing the established characters and actors from that franchise to show up in MCU properties from time to time. That way, you get to give the fans what they want without the nightmare of recasting and rebooting 50 kajillion characters from a relatively stable franchise (Apocalypse was bad, but it certainly wasn't "burn it to the ground and start over" bad). If you can get Ryan Reynolds as Deadpool to cameo in an MCU property, that's all you really need.

I'd rather have an event film merge universes. The X-Men, X-Force, Fantastic Four, Defenders, Guardians and Avengers team up for the biggest two-part event film of all time in either Secret Wars or House of M. All new seasons of TV shows are canceled. Sony are advised to only do a tie-in Spider-Verse film for that year (with Andrew Garfield and Toby Maguire).

After that, Marvel and Fox can easily share characters.