The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 24

[Kuwolski]

Nobody is saying they wouldn't work. In theory, there wouldn't be a problem with it. We are saying Disney wouldn't do them justice. When is the last time Disney made a gritty, ultra-violent R Rated action film starring a brutal killer like Frank Castle as the main hero? Their entire history says they won't do it.

Yeah, but Marvel are making the films, it's their studio and banner. Why should it be any different for them then it is for Fox when they come under Disney, or like it was for Miramax back in the day? If people go to a Disney film and it's advertised as such with the magic castle then that's one thing. This is Marvel, who has darker characters in it's universe. Not Disney branded films, they just own them. If the character demands a darker tone or perhaps even an R-rating, they should be allowed to, like Fox or Mirimax. Marvel should be treated no different or given restrictions just because they bring in big money. But maybe they won't and the fan bubble just isn't putting it in a broader perspective..

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yeah, but Marvel are making the films, it's their studio and banner. Why should it be any different for them then it is for Fox when they come under Disney, or like it was for Miramax back in the day? If people go to a Disney film and it's advertised as such with the magic castle then that's one thing. This is Marvel, who has darker characters in it's universe. Not Disney branded films, they just own them. If the character demands a darker tone or perhaps even an R-rating, they should be allowed to, like I'm sure Fox will be, or Mirimax back in the day, Marvel should be treated no different or given restrictions just because they bring in big money.

Should they be allowed to do it doesn't really matter. Feige and co have shown no desire to do it. If they did, like I said earlier, Daredevil would already be a movie. It's telling to me that Feige made this deal so quickly after they got him back.

 

[Kuwolski]

Should they be allowed to do it doesn't really matter. Feige and co have shown no desire to do it. If they did, like I said earlier, Daredevil would already be a movie. It's telling to me that Feige made this deal so quickly after they got him back.

Well this is the point I brought up earlier. Feige has done great things to this point and I'm sure will continue doing so, but as the universe gets bigger it will need to really diversify in order to stay fresh. For me this isn't just a genre issue but a tone one as well.

Here's another thought, why does everything have to be related to the MCU? I prefer that most things are, but if Feige has no interest in certain properties for whatever reason yet puts the kibosh on the idea or suggestion that anyone else dare try, then I have to wonder if he or Disney are serving the fans or Feige's own ego.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Well this is the point I brought up earlier. Feige has done great things to this point and I'm sure will continue doing so, but as the universe gets bigger it will need to really diversify in order to stay fresh. For me this isn't just a genre issue but a tone one as well.

Here's another thought, why does everything have to be related to the MCU? I prefer that most things are, but if Feige has no interest in certain properties for whatever reason yet puts the kibosh on the idea or suggestion that anyone else dare try, then I have to wonder if he or Disney are serving the fans or Feige's own ego.

It's not about ego, it's about what has been working. Marvel Studios has been making money with their current way fo doing business. Same thing has worked for Disney for all these years.

 

[Kuwolski]

It's not about ego, it's about what has been working. Marvel Studios has been making money with their current way fo doing business. Same thing has worked for Disney for all these years.

Well Feige said this about DP and Logan:

"My takeaway from both of those films is not the R rating; it's the risk they took, the chances they took, the creative boundaries that they pushed. That should be the takeaway for everyone."

I don't think "what's been working" is good enough for Feige, which is why he's a great producer. It's true that R-rated isn't the thing, plenty of PG-13 films are much darker and brooding then the R-rated Deadpool for example.

Again, I just hope we can see something like DD or Punisher in the MCU one day in a way they deserve to be presented.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Well Feige said this about DP and Logan:

"My takeaway from both of those films is not the R rating; it's the risk they took, the chances they took, the creative boundaries that they pushed. That should be the takeaway for everyone."

I don't think "what's been working" is good enough for Feige, which is why he's a great producer. It's true that R-rated isn't the thing, plenty of PG-13 films are much darker and brooding then the R-rated Deadpool for example.

Again, I just hope we can see something like DD or Punisher in the MCU one day in a way they deserve to be presented.

Again, I feel like we're already getting that. But to each their own.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Well Feige said this about DP and Logan:

"My takeaway from both of those films is not the R rating; it's the risk they took, the chances they took, the creative boundaries that they pushed. That should be the takeaway for everyone."

I don't think "what's been working" is good enough for Feige, which is why he's a great producer. It's true that R-rated isn't the thing, plenty of PG-13 films are much darker and brooding then the R-rated Deadpool for example.

Again, I just hope we can see something like DD or Punisher in the MCU one day in a way they deserve to be presented.

It isn't just about being dark and brooding. A character like Punisher requires a level of graphic violence that is simply impossible in PG-13.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Again, I feel like we're already getting that. But to each their own.

Rand being the exception.

 

[Kuwolski]

Again, I feel like we're already getting that. But to each their own.

We are, but I'm talking on the big screen.

 

[Kuwolski]

It isn't just about being dark and brooding. A character like Punisher requires a level of graphic violence that is simply impossible in PG-13.

I agree Punisher in particular needs to be R-rated like Logan was at Fox. A studio which DISNEY will soon own, like they own Marvel Studios.

There should not be different standards between them.

No magic castle before the films begin.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

Punisher really is one of the few properties that shouldn't walk the line between pg13 and R. The inherent violence and his choice of weaponry and tactics alone make that hard. I think they've built brand over these last 10 years that may allow for only so much flexibility. They'll really have their work cut out for when it comes to integrating characters like deadpool and wolverine.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

We are, but I'm talking on the big screen.

Why would putting it in theaters make Daredevil any better? Aside from perhaps having appearances by characters like Spider-Man, what would it really add?

 

[Kuwolski]

Punisher really is one of the few properties that shouldn't walk the line between pg13 and R. The inherent violence and his choice of weaponry and tactics alone make that hard. I think they've built brand over these last 10 years that may allow for only so much flexibility. They'll really have their work cut out for when it comes to integrating characters like deadpool and wolverine.

That's why I asked if every single thing needs to be connected to the MCU? If Feige doesn't think it'll work for whatever reason, allow someone else to make a standalone.

What's going to happen to Deadpool? Why does it need to be under the MCU banner or have Feige's involvement? They've been doing fine without him, just keep it at Fox and use the character for a cameo or crossovers. If they can't be true to the character or do them justice on screen then do them at Fox and keep them away from the MCU.

Brands can also evolve, which I think it'll need to do eventually. Everything works until it doesn't. The Marvel comics universe is vast and diverse, the cinematic universe should follow suit.

Most characters will fit into the MCU, but for the ones that don't, use another creative team or do a standalone. Look at Venom, it's far from a masterpiece and not connected to the MCU but plenty of people are satisfied. Marvel/Disney will still make their money.

 

[Kuwolski]

Why would putting it in theaters make Daredevil any better? Aside from perhaps having appearances by characters like Spider-Man, what would it really add?

I'm just going off the idea that if DD is cancelled by Netflix, will we see something like that again, whether it be Hulu, Disney Play or on the big screen? My hope is that we would, but people seem to disagree. So let's hope it lasts for awhile.

 

[Spidey_62]

I think the Netflix stuff is fine as long as they aren't spreading themselves too thin, DD and JJ were the best shows out of the gate and I don't think anything after reached the popularity or impact of either of those shows in their first seasons. I think the outright bad/average things that's come out of that were Iron Fist, Defenders, Luke Cage s2, JJ season 2. But Daredevil is one of those things where it feels like it isn't broken so they shouldn't trash it, especially coming off of how good season 3 was. I don't see why it can't coexist if it's quality, just cut back on the offerings and make sure they're all up to snuff.

 

[Kuwolski]

I think the Netflix stuff is fine as long as they aren't spreading themselves too thin, DD and JJ were the best shows out of the gate and I don't think anything after reached the popularity or impact of either of those shows in their first seasons. I think the outright bad/average things that's come out of that were Iron Fist, Defenders, Luke Cage s2, JJ season 2. But Daredevil is one of those things where it feels like it isn't broken so they shouldn't trash it, especially coming off of how good season 3 was. I don't see why it can't coexist if it's quality, just cut back on the offerings and make sure they're all up to snuff.

Very true, just watched this:

 

[Raiden]

I think the Netflix stuff is fine as long as they aren't spreading themselves too thin, DD and JJ were the best shows out of the gate and I don't think anything after reached the popularity or impact of either of those shows in their first seasons. I think the outright bad/average things that's come out of that were Iron Fist, Defenders, Luke Cage s2, JJ season 2. But Daredevil is one of those things where it feels like it isn't broken so they shouldn't trash it, especially coming off of how good season 3 was. I don't see why it can't coexist if it's quality, just cut back on the offerings and make sure they're all up to snuff.

Although it's true that Netflix & Marvel can't keep all the shows on high quality, I felt that they're also held to a higher standard than your average shows. The DC series on CW, for instance, aren't that great either, but people do cut them slack even when they have bad seasons. For Marvel, it seems like if they aren't as good as DD then they should be cancelled.

 

[BaronZemo]

Thats because they are higher quality. Also flash and arrow are shadows.of their former selves.

 

[DavidManningJr]

I don't think the director is the problem, its the writing. They need a better script. That's it. Get that script good enough where Tom can still do his thing and Woody can chew that scenery, then it could be an objectively good movie while still pleasing it's core audience.

Fun fact: Rhet Reese and Paul Wernick (Deadpool) penned a Venom script for Sony that for some stupid reason they ended up not using, even though they later brought in the director of Zombieland which was also written by the same guys. It was described as "gritty and realistic" but Sony could have just slightly toned down some of the stuff and the movie would still be watchable.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Although it's true that Netflix & Marvel can't keep all the shows on high quality, I felt that they're also held to a higher standard than your average shows. The DC series on CW, for instance, aren't that great either, but people do cut them slack even when they have bad seasons. For Marvel, it seems like if they aren't as good as DD then they should be cancelled.

I have noticed this same thing. I watched Arrow season 4. It was one of the worst seasons of superhero based TV I have ever seen. Start to finish, straight fire garbage. That season was so bad I gave up on the show. It takes a lot for me to do that. But I don't see anyone trying to reboot Arrow or anything like that. Give me Iron Fist season 1 over that garbage anyday.

 

[Smurphftw]

I have noticed this same thing. I watched Arrow season 4. It was one of the worst seasons of superhero based TV I have ever seen. Start to finish, straight fire garbage. That season was so bad I gave up on the show. It takes a lot for me to do that. But I don't see anyone trying to reboot Arrow or anything like that. Give me Iron Fist season 1 over that garbage anyday.

Yeah I ditched Arrow after that season and Flash after season 3 because it was the exact same story 3 seasons in a row.

There's powerful evil speedster and Flash needs to improve in order to save those he loves .....

I've totally given up on the Arrowverse.

 

[Marvel united]

I've been too busy with work to watch Daredevil S3 but one thing that annoys me about these shows is the reluctance to embrace the source material. Iron Fist is the worst offender of this; two whole seasons without him getting any kind of costume is unacceptable.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Why would putting it in theaters make Daredevil any better? Aside from perhaps having appearances by characters like Spider-Man, what would it really add?

True. I would like to see DD make a guest appearance in a Spidey movie though. Other than that, he's fine on Netflix.

I have noticed this same thing. I watched Arrow season 4. It was one of the worst seasons of superhero based TV I have ever seen. Start to finish, straight fire garbage. That season was so bad I gave up on the show. It takes a lot for me to do that. But I don't see anyone trying to reboot Arrow or anything like that. Give me Iron Fist season 1 over that garbage anyday.

Wow! That's saying something because Iron Fist was bad. Makes me glad I have zero interest in a show about an archer to begin with and never watched it.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

In my opinion, there's a huge difference between a 10-13 episode season and a 20+ episode season to the point I would avoid comparing them. I'd say all of the Netflix shows are superior to things like Flash or Arrow... or Agents of Shield.

But I also expect more from those Netflix shows. When I compare the Netflix shows to things like The Americans, Better Call Saul. West World, Game of Thrones, Fargo, Legion etc. they come up a little short.

Marvel films are right up there with the best films every year. They may not get the critical acclaim, but the overall effort and quality and entertainment value of those films is right up there.

Ideally, I'd like to see them strive for that kind of quality on the streaming/TV side as well and not allow the Marvel logo to go on it unless it can stand with the best shows out there.

 

[Spider-Fan]

In my opinion, there's a huge difference between a 10-13 episode season and a 20+ episode season to the point I would avoid comparing them. I'd say all of the Netflix shows are superior to things like Flash or Arrow... or Agents of Shield.

But I also expect more from those Netflix shows. When I compare the Netflix shows to things like The Americans, Better Call Saul. West World, Game of Thrones, Fargo, Legion etc. they come up a little short.

Marvel films are right up there with the best films every year. They may not get the critical acclaim, but the overall effort and quality and entertainment value of those films is right up there.

Ideally, I'd like to see them strive for that kind of quality on the streaming/TV side as well and not allow the Marvel logo to go on it unless it can stand with the best shows out there.

I am not trying to compete with those shows, honestly. Even the MCU often times doesn't. Was Iron Man 2 or Thor: The Dark World one of the best films of the year? No, they were just decent movies. When we get a season on that level, it's a bonus. But expecting Westworld with every season I think is off. Even the MCU movies don't hit that relative mark with movies every year. I would agree they land there more often, but all I ask is the show is enjoyable.