The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 24

[Iceman]

Iron Fist was mishandled at the start and because of that, I can see where it choked the momentum of Marvel-Netflix in general.

I actually overall liked Defenders although they had taken some missteps on it. Since it was right after Iron Fist, I know some folks who only recently checked it out. They also didn’t dig Iron Fist then when they heard Defenders “didn’t do well”, they were in no rush to see it. Funny thing is when they did, most of those guys liked it well enough.

I have to admit, I still have not seen Iron Fist Season 2. Prior to Iron Fist S2 I would take the day off to binge the new season of a Netflix-Marvel show, but when I was following what the show’s creatives and it came out about how certain aspects of how this season was going to be, I majorly lost interest.

I really enjoyed Daredevil Season 3. Jessica Jones I really liked Season 1 and liked half of Season 2 so I’ll give it a chance. If they legit make Trish Hellcat that will go a long way with me.

I am looking forward to Hellcat for sure, and there can be an interesting conflict after the way the JJ-Trish relationship has been built up. Aside from some of the shows disappointing after such a great start, I also thought Defenders was fine, but being fine isn't enough for your main event IMO.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I am looking forward to Hellcat for sure, and there can be an interesting conflict after the way the JJ-Trish relationship has been built up. Aside from some of the shows disappointing after such a great start, I also thought Defenders was fine, but being fine isn't enough for your main event IMO.

I agree. Defenders was nowhere near what Avengers was for the movies. But it was not the dumpster fire I thought JL was, either. It had that spark sometimes, and it floundered at others. In the end, I think if Defenders nailed it, half of the complaining that is done about the Netflix shows wouldn't exist. But they merely landed the plane as opposed to sticking the landing.

 

[Flint Marko]

Inhumans was so unbelievably awful. There’s no way everyone involved didn’t know it was going to be a massive turd.

I still feel like I’m the only one who walked away from the Defenders satisfied. It was never going to be the Avengers and I think Iron Fist helped adjust my expectations accordingly.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Inhumans was so unbelievably awful. There’s no way everyone involved didn’t know it was going to be a massive turd.

I still feel like I’m the only one who walked away from the Defenders satisfied. It was never going to be the Avengers and I think Iron Fist helped adjust my expectations accordingly.

Once again, I LIKED Defenders. But in the pantheon of Netflix Marvel, it's one of the weaker seasons. On that front, it was disappointing.

 

[Dark Raven]

If you want something to succeed and come out with top quality, you don't allow Scott Buck in the same building, never mind give him the keys to one of your main shows. And if for some reason they weren't aware of Buck's toxic touch, Inhumans should have been the absolutely biggest wake up call possible.

Buck was probably the most appropriate person for the Inhumans in retrospect. He's like the Terrigen crystals. If you even so much as touch them, they prove fatal.

 

[Iceman]

I agree. Defenders was nowhere near what Avengers was for the movies. But it was not the dumpster fire I thought JL was, either. It had that spark sometimes, and it floundered at others. In the end, I think if Defenders nailed it, half of the complaining that is done about the Netflix shows wouldn't exist. But they merely landed the plane as opposed to sticking the landing.

Exactly. Various MCU complaints (not necessarily mine) about the likes of most of the non-Iron Man phase 1 films, AoU and TDW have been overshadowed by the positivity of the MCU, but that wouldn't have happened if Avengers had just done its job in a perfectly fine manner without catching fire to any extent. I think pretty much everyone who has come after the MCU and tried to put a universe together has struggled for various reasons, but one thing you need to get right is that the first main event you build up to needs to properly excite people and deliver, adequately rewarding them for being invested over that period. This is what then creates a wave of loyalty (and tolerance) for what you do next.

 

[Iceman]

Inhumans was so unbelievably awful. There’s no way everyone involved didn’t know it was going to be a massive turd.

I still feel like I’m the only one who walked away from the Defenders satisfied. It was never going to be the Avengers and I think Iron Fist helped adjust my expectations accordingly.

If as hardcore fans we can write off that possibility, then it becomes a very hard sell to ask the GA to watch a large number of different shows with long seasons for different characters. Without this main event blow-up I feel there won't be a long term Netflix universe unless fans alone can support it. The MCU has achieved a fanbase and GA loyalty where a base number of people pretty much go to nearly every film. Without doing an Avengers even to a lesser extent and getting the audience invested that watching them all will build to something that is a worthy payoff, there is little reason to persevere with any shows that don't grab you on their own merits. Many of us liked Defenders without it quite achieving what we hoped for unfortunately, and that coupled with some stumbles on various seasons of the solo shows has led to a place where excitement is there but nowhere near where it could have been.

 

[Marvel united]

The question is, does Feige have plans for these characters

Doubt it. He didn't back when these shows were made, so I don't think he has anything for them.

To be fair, that was some 5-6 years ago. Feige may have an idea of what to do with these characters now. Especially since the final chapter of the original saga is closing next year. Having a Daredevil: The Man Without Fear" or a Heroes For Hire movie with Luke, Danny, Jessica and Misty would be great additions to the Phase 4 slate. Or maybe even them as supporting characters ala Hulk.

 

[Spider-Fan]

To be fair, that was some 5-6 years ago. Feige may have an idea of what to do with these characters now. Especially since the final chapter of the original saga is closing next year. Having a Daredevil: The Man Without Fear" or a Heroes For Hire movie with Luke, Danny, Jessica and Misty would be great additions to the Phase 4 slate. Or maybe even them as supporting characters ala Hulk.

These characters, particularly Daredevil, don't jive as well with the tone Feige and co set out for with the movies. The movies try to be lighter for the most part. That same tone won't work for Daredevil. Heroes for Hire potentially, but then we get into the issues Danny presents as a white savior character (and that was a controversy before we even saw the show itself). I honestly don't see Feige doing anything with them in regards to film. At best, they will continue as shows IMO.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

These characters, particularly Daredevil, don't jive as well with the tone Feige and co set out for with the movies. The movies try to be lighter for the most part. That same tone won't work for Daredevil. Heroes for Hire potentially, but then we get into the issues Danny presents as a white savior character (and that was a controversy before we even saw the show itself). I honestly don't see Feige doing anything with them in regards to film. At best, they will continue as shows IMO.

I can't see Daredevil, Punisher, and Jessica Jones ever working with the MCU tone. They are too dark and gritty to be done properly in it. Disney is never going to allow Frank Castle to be what he needs to be in an MCU film. I love the MCU, but for some characters it just does not work.

 

[Kuwolski]

I love what Fiege has done, but I hope he starts exploring different tones in the MCU. Can we never have a DD film because Feige doesn't see it's tone fitting with his grand vision? Seems a bit ridiculous to me considering the comics display a different variety of material and tones without fans batting an eye. Yet in the film universe it supposedly won't work. There are plenty of Marvel fans out there who love the darker stuff and if Feige keeps pushing those properties off to TV or streaming it will get old real quick. They should find a Marvel Max guru to run that part of the MCU, because as this universe continues to expand I'm not sold on one guy having all the sway over these productions if he's neglecting characters that aren't family friendly.

Change is the price of survival.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I love what Fiege has done, but I hope he starts exploring different tones in the MCU. Can we never have a DD film because Feige doesn't see it's tone fitting with his grand vision? Seems a bit ridiculous to me considering the comics display a different variety of material and tones without fans batting an eye. Yet in the film universe it supposedly won't work. There are plenty of Marvel fans out there who love the darker stuff and if Feige keeps pushing those properties off to TV or streaming it will get old real quick. They should find a Marvel Max guru to run that part of the MCU, because as this universe continues to expand I'm not sold on one guy having all the sway over these productions if he's neglecting characters that aren't family friendly.

Change is the price of survival.

But we already are exploring those tones in the MCU. Just in the form of TV as opposed to film. I think this is something we're all missing. They ARE exploring Daredevil's world, and it is amazing. It just happens to be on TV.

 

[Marvel united]

These characters, particularly Daredevil, don't jive as well with the tone Feige and co set out for with the movies. The movies try to be lighter for the most part. That same tone won't work for Daredevil. Heroes for Hire potentially, but then we get into the issues Danny presents as a white savior character (and that was a controversy before we even saw the show itself). I honestly don't see Feige doing anything with them in regards to film. At best, they will continue as shows IMO.

Daredevil has crossed over with the wider MU dozens of times in the comics. In fact, was Daredevilt even "dark and gritty" before Frank Miller's run? Because the comics were bright and colorful up until then and many stories post Frank Miller were still lighthearted.. Daredevil doesn't have to be a dark, gritty character. If anything, the Netflix is downplaying the fantastical elements of the DD comics. He could absolutely mess with the comic booky aesthetic of the wider MCU.

Now regarding Danny Rand, I don't think most people would care. And the spotlight won't totally be on him anyway, since he'll be co-starring with Luke. So Danny Rand looking like Danny Rand from the comics won't be an issue. The Heroes For Hire movie could be in vein if Homecoming in the sense that it offers a look into the ground level of the MCU and we get to see how the Thanos invasion affected heroes that are street level. Imagine Luke and Danny running a business like Toomes except it's to help people instead.

 

[Kuwolski]

But we already are exploring those tones in the MCU. Just in the form of TV as opposed to film. I think this is something we're all missing. They ARE exploring Daredevil's world, and it is amazing. It just happens to be on TV.

That's true, but the fact that we understand certain types of characters won't appear on the big screen because they are too dark for children is becoming frustrating to some people. We keep hearing it won't work because, because, because, yet it works in the comics just fine.

What happens if DD is cancelled? Will we ever see someting like that in the MCU on screen or on platforms like Disney play or Hulu? I don't know, but if not then it should be concerning as a fan of these characters.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Daredevil has crossed over with the wider MU dozens of times in the comics. In fact, was Daredevilt even "dark and gritty" before Frank Miller's run? Because the comics were bright and colorful up until then and many stories post Frank Miller were still lighthearted.. Daredevil doesn't have to be a dark, gritty character. If anything, the Netflix is downplaying the fantastical elements of the DD comics. He could absolutely mess with the comic booky aesthetic of the wider MCU.

I read a lot of early Daredevil when it was light and fluffy. It was pretty terrible. Frank Miller made the book what it is today, honestly. Daredevil doesn't thrive as well outside of the murkier settings. Just think to yourself what Daredevil's 10 best stories are. All of them will be from darker eras. There is a reason for that.

Now regarding Danny Rand, I don't think most people would care. And the spotlight won't totally be on him anyway, since he'll be co-starring with Luke. So Danny Rand looking like Danny Rand from the comics won't be an issue. The Heroes For Hire movie could be in vein if Homecoming in the sense that it offers a look into the ground level of the MCU and we get to see how the Thanos invasion affected heroes that are street level. Imagine Luke and Danny running a business like Toomes except it's to help people instead.

But they can also just do this on the show, as well. I think the biggest problem is the shows never went that direction, but honestly I think Heroes for Hire works better in long form story telling. They get hired on a job, there are twists and turns, etc. They would thrive better in an episodic environment. I don't think feature film is their medium, honestly. Can they work as a movie? Sure, but I think TV offers them more.

 

[Marvel united]

But we already are exploring those tones in the MCU. Just in the form of TV as opposed to film. I think this is something we're all missing. They ARE exploring Daredevil's world, and it is amazing. It just happens to be on TV.

Kevin Feige and the Marvel Studios crew are not exploring Daredevil's world. The TV side is completely disconnected from the movies at this point and they aren't canon as far as I'm concerned. Iron Fist and Luke Cage getting cancelled so effortlessly and the incoming Disney Marvel shows speaks volumes of where the Netflix shows stand in proximity to the film side.

And an MCU Daredevil with a big budget and a more comic accurate costume rcould be amazing. It's giving me chills thinking about what it could be

 

[Spider-Fan]

That's true, but the fact that we understand certain types of characters won't appear on the big screen because they are too dark for children is becoming frustrating to some people. We keep hearing it won't work because, because, because, yet it works in the comics just fine.

What happens if DD is cancelled? Will we ever see someting like that in the MCU on screen or on platforms like Disney play or Hulu? I don't know, but if not then it should be concerning as a fan of these characters.

All I will say is, we're going to be 25 movies into the MCU as we know it. They have never explored darker corners really on film. TWS is closest we got. At this point, that tells me there is a trend at work. I won't say it will never happen, but that might be where FOX comes in. The MCU has been branded as family friendly for cinema patrons. They're owned by a company now who very much protects that family image (Disney). This is why I think the Defenders were outsourced in the first place: Feige just seems to have no interest in exploring the dark corners of the MCU. If he did, certainly Daredevil would have a movie by now. He actually has a brand name unlike many guys like Ant-Man we got. But almost as soon as they got him, they put him to TV. That tells me where Feige's head is.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Kevin Feige and the Marvel Studios crew are not exploring Daredevil's world. The TV side is completely disconnected from the movies at this point and they aren't canon as far as I'm concerned. Iron Fist and Luke Cage getting cancelled so effortlessly and the incoming Disney Marvel shows speaks volumes of where the Netflix shows stand in proximity to the film side.

And an MCU Daredevil with a big budget and a more comic accurate costume rcould be amazing. It's giving me chills thinking about what it could be
View attachment 12197

That is an opinion. The show is grounded in the MCU world and has referenced it. If not good enough for you, that's your choice. I think they got DD right more than a movie would have. Netflix allowed it to have a more proper edge and to take chances the MCU wouldn't with him. For me, they're exploring DD's world wonderfully. I know I say this a lot, but I truly like Daredevil's show more than the vast majority of the movies (which again..I love basically all the movies so it is a testament to the show).

 

[Zarex]

I read a lot of early Daredevil when it was light and fluffy. It was pretty terrible. Frank Miller made the book what it is today, honestly. Daredevil doesn't thrive as well outside of the murkier settings. Just think to yourself what Daredevil's 10 best stories are. All of them will be from darker eras. There is a reason for that.

Miller was great, but his interpretation of Daredevil - and Batman - isn't the be all and end all of the character(s). Mark Waid had a fantastic run on DD and his contribution to the story continuity are often named among Old Horn Head's best. His version of Matt went very light on the grimness and grit but was extremely compelling.
Mark Waid's Daredevil: 15 Reasons It Was The Greatest Of All Time

A more "superhero-y", less tortured version of Daredevil would fit neatly into the cinematic MCU.

 

[Limonade]

Miller was great, but his interpretation of Daredevil - and Batman - isn't the be all and end all of the character(s). Mark Waid had a fantastic run on DD and his contribution to the story continuity are often named among Old Horn Head's best. His version of Matt went very light on the grimness and grit but was extremely compelling.
Mark Waid's Daredevil: 15 Reasons It Was The Greatest Of All Time

A more "superhero-y", less tortured version of Daredevil would fit neatly into the cinematic MCU.

I have most of Mark Waid's short run of Daredevil. It's a toss-up, for me... because when it's dark... it can get very dark and grim. But that could be Chris Samnee's artistic style... even though it looked very simplistic in nature... the lighting and colors... gave it more gravitas.

I wish Netflix/Marvel didn't off Kilgrave… he would've made an excellent foe for Matt Murdock as shown in the comic.

I honestly won't understand the need to kill villains when they could just move them around in the different shows that are in circulation.

 

[Marvel united]

Miller was great, but his interpretation of Daredevil - and Batman - isn't the be all and end all of the character(s). Mark Waid had a fantastic run on DD and his contribution to the story continuity are often named among Old Horn Head's best. His version of Matt went very light on the grimness and grit but was extremely compelling.
Mark Waid's Daredevil: 15 Reasons It Was The Greatest Of All Time

A more "superhero-y", less tortured version of Daredevil would fit neatly into the cinematic MCU.

Exacly. A less grounded, more fantastical version of the character would fit right alongside the other heroes in the MCU. Daredevil does not HAVE to be grim and as dark as the Nolan Batman films. The Netflix show is only exploring one side of the character and it's not the end all to be all.

 

[Kuwolski]

All I will say is, we're going to be 25 movies into the MCU as we know it. They have never explored darker corners really on film. TWS is closest we got. At this point, that tells me there is a trend at work. I won't say it will never happen, but that might be where FOX comes in. The MCU has been branded as family friendly for cinema patrons. They're owned by a company now who very much protects that family image (Disney). This is why I think the Defenders were outsourced in the first place: Feige just seems to have no interest in exploring the dark corners of the MCU. If he did, certainly Daredevil would have a movie by now. He actually has a brand name unlike many guys like Ant-Man we got. But almost as soon as they got him, they put him to TV. That tells me where Feige's head is.

Yeah I agree about Feige. That's my one negative about him and why I think they need another studio label for specific titles.

To be clear most superheroes are family friendly and should be for everyone. My favorite character is the everyman for everyone who runs the full gamut (thwip). You can go darker with him like Kraven's Last Hunt or other DeMatteis stories for example, but those elements do not define the character in an iconic way, they are just great stories and runs.

Miller on the other hand defined Daredevil to what we know and love today. To most people, just like Claremont with the X-Men, Daredevil was made truly relevant when he took over writing duties. People expect that murky, neo-noir feel for DD, reinforced further by other great runs like Bendis, Brubaker, etc.

 

[Kuwolski]

Miller was great, but his interpretation of Daredevil - and Batman - isn't the be all and end all of the character(s). Mark Waid had a fantastic run on DD and his contribution to the story continuity are often named among Old Horn Head's best. His version of Matt went very light on the grimness and grit but was extremely compelling.
Mark Waid's Daredevil: 15 Reasons It Was The Greatest Of All Time

A more "superhero-y", less tortured version of Daredevil would fit neatly into the cinematic MCU.

I did enjoy Waid's run for the most part and DD could be done that way in the MCU. But I'm arguing for what isn't being done and how adding more creative diversity to the MCU isn't a bad thing.

 

[Raiden]

So the cancellation of Luke Cage & Iron Fist is purely Netflix's decision, or a mutual decision from both Netflix and Disney/Marvel?

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

That's true, but the fact that we understand certain types of characters won't appear on the big screen because they are too dark for children is becoming frustrating to some people. We keep hearing it won't work because, because, because, yet it works in the comics just fine.

What happens if DD is cancelled? Will we ever see someting like that in the MCU on screen or on platforms like Disney play or Hulu? I don't know, but if not then it should be concerning as a fan of these characters.

Nobody is saying they wouldn't work. In theory, there wouldn't be a problem with it. We are saying Disney wouldn't do them justice. When is the last time Disney made a gritty, ultra-violent R Rated action film starring a brutal killer like Frank Castle as the main hero? Their entire history says they won't do it.