The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 24

[Bach]

Im sorry, but what billion dollar potential?
Venom wont get there by himself. Sure, it exceeded expectations, but the critics and a lot fans buried it and i dont think a sequel has strong foundations to build upon.
Homecoming was successful but didnt get close to 1 bil. That shows how much damage sony did to the property. Damage that marvel tried very hard to fix.
Now we love holland in the mcu. Im sure feige has a way to prevent him from being in a sony movie unrelated to mcu.
But still, imagine the backlash if they took spiderman, holland or not, from mcu.
How would that, combined with a shaky groundwork set by venom result in a billion dollar picture? And its made by the people who thought aunt may solo film could work?
I just dont see it happening.
What i do see is a complete and total trainwreck.

The general public has no idea about this stuff. If Spider-Man gets pulled from the MCU, most of them wouldn't even know about it. And when Sony releases "Spider-Man Vs Venom" (as the other user mentioned) they would just associate Spider-Man with Holland.

 

[Darkprime]

The general public has no idea about this stuff. If Spider-Man gets pulled from the MCU most of them wouldn't even know about it, and when Sony releases "Venom vs Spider-Man" (as the other user mentioned) they would just associate Spider-Man with Holland.

I disagree. At the very least they'll start asking why is Tom Holland not spider-man anymore and start looking into it further and then figure out what Sony did and realise Spider-Man won't be teaming up with the Avengers again. I don't think we give the general audience enough credit with these type of things.

 

[Bach]

I disagree. At the very least they'll start asking why is Tom Holland not spider-man anymore and start looking into it further and then figure out what Sony did and realise Spider-Man won't be teaming up with the Avengers again. I don't think we give the general audience enough credit with these type of things.

That would be a very small portion of people. The only thing the general audience cares is about having fun, nothing else. Otherwise, there would be more people aware of the consecuences of watching Venom.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

If a standalone venom film on its own can make half a billion and homecoming made $880 million. Think how much Venom 2 will make with Spider-Man involved. Obviously there's still a few factors here to consider. When looking at a Venom vs Spider-Man film potential's box office.

1. Who is playing Spider-Man? If its Tom Holland they already have an established fan base.

2. If its a new spider-man like you say there's a lot of risk involved in recasting the role for a 4th time.

3. MCU fan backlash. Dont underestimate an angry fan base. All tho this didn't seem to effect Venom at all.

4. Backlash from the lack of quality of Venom. This was a film that was not well received and got terrible reviews. There is a long list of sequels that bombed in this exact situation. Popular IP that makes a lot of money for their first film, but the movie gets ravaged in reviews. Come the sequel and nobody goes because they didn't actually like the first one. We just saw this play out with JL. BvS has the Trinity together for the first time, does well. JL has them together for the second time, flops.

 

[Flint Marko]

If audiences all of a sudden have to watch a fourth Spider-man completely separated from the MCU, they’re definitely going to notice.

 

[Darkprime]

Unless they bring back Andrew Garfield

 

[WeaponXCII]

yep.

Disney’s Fiscal Full Year and Q4 2018 Earnings Results Webcast - The Walt Disney Company

Its curious that the EU delayed their deadline of approval to just 2 days before the conference call. Probably just a coincidence but my guess is Disney wants EU approval confirmed by the end of this fiscal year so it looks good on their financial reports. And it keeps the merger moving forward in a timely manner.

Awesome.

I would posit that the timing means that Disney not only wants the EU approval confirmed for their financial reports, but that they also feel confident that they'll actually get the approval.

 

[Marvel united]

If Venom's success has shown me anything, it's that the GA doesn't care about the "finer details" when it comes to these movies and I fear they won't care if Spidey gets rebooted again in the Venomverse...

 

[Bach]

Indeed. If they don't care that Venom isn't in the MCU, they won't care about Spider-Man being in the same situation. True, there will be a minority that does care and complain about it but that's what they'll be, a minority.

 

[Darkprime]

Its too soon for Venom to show up in MCU spidey's timeline anyway IMO. Hes still in high school. Hasn't Venom normally shown up later in his life?

 

[Detective Conan]

Its too soon for Venom to show up in MCU spidey's timeline anyway IMO. Hes still in high school. Hasn't Venom normally shown up later in his life?

In the Ultimate comics universe(which the MCU takes a lot of inspiration from) Venom shows up when Peter is still in high school. Venom isn’t necessarily a bad guy in which it wouldn’t be appropriate for a younger less-experienced Spider-Man to face-off against. It depends on the execution.

 

[Zarex]

If a standalone venom film on its own can make half a billion and homecoming made $880 million. Think how much Venom 2 will make with Spider-Man involved. Obviously there's still a few factors here to consider. When looking at a Venom vs Spider-Man film potential's box office.

But we've seen this logic fall apart very recently. "Wonder Woman made over $800M! Now you're adding Batman AND Superman? Justice League makes a billion, EASY!"

Venom 2 is in a precarious state given the poor critical response to the first one and the extreme likelihood Sony rushes part 2 out within a couple of years. There's a decent chance Sony pulls Spidey out of the MCU and ends up failing in its second attempt at a shared universe, but now I'm thinking cooler heads will prevail and a deal gets done.

 

[KBX]

People probably think Venom is part of the MCU simply because Stan Lee showed up

 

[KBX]

People probably think Venom is part of the MCU simply because Stan Lee showed up

 

[ironwez20]

Unless they bring back Andrew Garfield

Only a small portion of fans liked him and the GA didn’t seem to like him at all

 

[ironwez20]

People probably think Venom is part of the MCU simply because Stan Lee showed up

Actually this is true. I had people ask in the theater how he was going to be in infinity war. So yea the GA is definitely confused. They probably think spidey vs venom is on the horizon soon.

I hope far from home crosses a billion so don’t will be stuck between a rock and a hard place

 

[Smurphftw]

4. Backlash from the lack of quality of Venom. This was a film that was not well received and got terrible reviews. There is a long list of sequels that bombed in this exact situation. Popular IP that makes a lot of money for their first film, but the movie gets ravaged in reviews. Come the sequel and nobody goes because they didn't actually like the first one. We just saw this play out with JL. BvS has the Trinity together for the first time, does well. JL has them together for the second time, flops.

The difference is that Venom currently has a MUCH higher audience score than BvS and JL. Although I'm still somewhat skeptical about it's 87% audience score, I don't doubt that the GA liked the movie significantly more than critics did.

There are 2 silver linings for me personally in regards to Venom's success.

1. It's the most compelling evidence yet that there is a complete and total lack of anything remotely resembling "Superhero Movie Fatigue"

2. It's also obvious to me that RT no longer has the power it once did and I think that's a good thing. There are many examples of movies that critics weren't fond of that found an audience and stood the test of time.

 

[ludovica]

4. Backlash from the lack of quality of Venom. This was a film that was not well received and got terrible reviews. There is a long list of sequels that bombed in this exact situation. Popular IP that makes a lot of money for their first film, but the movie gets ravaged in reviews. Come the sequel and nobody goes because they didn't actually like the first one. We just saw this play out with JL. BvS has the Trinity together for the first time, does well. JL has them together for the second time, flops.

The drops from day to day and week to week tell a different story than BvS.

 

[BaronZemo]

The difference is that Venom currently has a MUCH higher audience score than BvS and JL. Although I'm still somewhat skeptical about it's 87% audience score, I don't doubt that the GA liked the movie significantly more than critics did.

There are 2 silver linings for me personally in regards to Venom's success.

1. It's the most compelling evidence yet that there is a complete and total lack of anything remotely resembling "Superhero Movie Fatigue"

2. It's also obvious to me that RT no longer has the power it once did and I think that's a good thing. There are many examples of movies that critics weren't fond of that found an audience and stood the test of time.

Why do you only bring rt when it comes to.audience score?. Venom has 7 on imdb on 100000 reviews which is bad and means it will end close to asm 2,.bvs, jl score. It also has a 5.6 average on letterboxd which is alsp bad, a mediocre b+ on cinascore and a 6.4 on metacritic.

The myth that this.movie is well received needs to end. Its not. Rt is only one site and only has anfraction of the users reviews it had.

 

[ludovica]

Why do you only bring rt when it comes to.audience score?. Venom has 7 on imdb on 100000 reviews which is bad and means it will end close to asm 2,.bvs, jl score. It also has a 5.6 average on letterboxd which is alsp bad, a mediocre b+ on cinascore and a 6.4 on metacritic.

The myth that this.movie is well received needs to end. Its not. Rt is only one site and only has anfraction of the users reviews it had.

As I said in the post above your, the good box office drops tell it is not a BvS situation, Venom found its audience.
Even if one considers it a really bad movie, it wouldn't even be the first such to be accepted by audiences.
Really, just check its box office thread for a rundown, that is the only objective metric we have yet.

I wonder what people will say if it does well in home release sales... "Wait for the sequel", and what if then the sequel indeed does well...
Time will tell.

 

[rebellion]

The general public has no idea about this stuff. If Spider-Man gets pulled from the MCU, most of them wouldn't even know about it. And when Sony releases "Spider-Man Vs Venom" (as the other user mentioned) they would just associate Spider-Man with Holland.

Mcu fans would make sure gp is aware of the mess that went on.
Just like star wars fans created a cloud of negativity around upcoming sw stuff.
And mcu itself would probably make sure to distance themselves if that teamup actually happened.
Im sure feige would do everything to keep his brand untarnished.

 

[BaronZemo]

As I said in the post above your, the good box office drops tell it is not a BvS situation, Venom found its audience.
Even if one considers it a really bad movie, it wouldn't even be the first such to be accepted by audiences.
Really, just check its box office thread for a rundown, that is the only objective metric we have yet.

I wonder what people will say if it does well in home release sales... "Wait for the sequel", and what if then the sequel indeed does well...
Time will tell.

Nun is the highest grossing Conjuring movie yet it's widely considered the worst or the second worst along with the first Annabelle. Box office means nothing to me. I have seen the reviews and the majority of the audience scores are mediocre to bad. This is another SS stiutation where the movie made bank but it's bad. There is no need to sugarcoat it.

 

[Spider-Fan]

High BO does not equal quality. I am in agreement there. However, this movie has legs and low weekend to weekend drops. That is indicative that WOM on this movie is not bad. Let's look at your example of The Nun. The Nun dropped 66% going into weekend 2. Suicide Squad also saw a near 67% drop in its 2nd weekend. That is very high and says something about WOM on the movie. Venom only dropped 56%, which for a superhero film is low. It has dropped under 50% each weekend after, as well. The overall BO number means less than a movie's staying power in theaters. Venom is showing it has staying power.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

High BO does not equal quality. I am in agreement there. However, this movie has legs and low weekend to weekend drops. That is indicative that WOM on this movie is not bad. Let's look at your example of The Nun. The Nun dropped 66% going into weekend 2. That is very high and says something about WOM on the movie. Venom only dropped 56%, which for a superhero film is low. It has dropped under 50% each weekend after, as well. The overall BO number means less than a movie's staying power in theaters. Venom is showing it has staying power.

I think, like with a lot of the DC properties, Venom is well known and people want to see him, so they'll show up for a film that has mediocre to bad reviews.

And Venom has the added characteristic of being unique and edgy.

Is that enough to carry them forward? I don't know. I think one problem (or possibly benefit if played correctly) Sony has going forward is that the audience for Venom is a different audience than the one for Spider-Man. That sets up an intriguing match-up, but how will Venom fans feel when (presumably) Spidey wins?

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think, like with a lot of the DC properties, Venom is well known and people want to see him, so they'll show up for a film that has mediocre to bad reviews.

And Venom has the added characteristic of being unique and edgy.

Is that enough to carry them forward? I don't know. I think one problem (or possibly benefit if played correctly) Sony has going forward is that the audience for Venom is a different audience than the one for Spider-Man. That sets up an intriguing match-up, but how will Venom fans feel when (presumably) Spidey wins?

Venom has been losing to Spider-Man for over 20 years, so I think that wouldn't bother anyone.