Dark Phoenix The Simon Kinberg Thread - Director, Writer & Producer of Dark Phoenix

[Leo Zelinsky]

I give Kinberg credit for approving those costumes. If he hits a few more checkpoints he'll be best X-MEN director to date imo

 

[SumT]

lets see what he does with Storm this time around. I highly doubt the world will praise her role, neither her fans, neither the critics, neither all the viewers that loved Black Panther, and want to see a great treatment for Storm too.

same question for Psylocke, that is in the movie. So there we have two iconic X-women, used for the second time under Kinberg's scripts. Lets see if he delivers or not.

 

[EnDz0n3]

How about we talk about the movies, the cast, the filmmakers, the X-men.
And not about other posters.

same question for Psylocke, that is in the movie. So there we have two iconic X-women, used for the second time under Kinberg's scripts. Lets see if he delivers or not.

Third time under Kinberg’s pen for Psylocke (X3, Apocalypse and if she really does show up here, Dark Phoenix).
Fourth time for Storm (the previous 3 mentioned plus DOFP).

 

[SumT]

Third time under Kinberg’s pen for Psylocke (X3, Apocalypse and if she really does show up here, Dark Phoenix).
Fourth time for Storm (the previous 3 mentioned plus DOFP).

yikes... true. This sounds horrible


He wont ever develop Psylocke, Ive come up to that conclussion. But hey, Kinberg and Olivia are friends, something is something.

 

[EnDz0n3]

Yeah....as unimaginative as all the other story people and director Bryan Singer input/approve involved in the production of that script. They were all together when creating this script, especially Singer. The script details how the action would proceed....based on the director's vision. If it isn't, then it's rewritten to the director's approval. Not the screenwriter's approval: "The director needs to be the one to make the decisions as to the actual character of the action listed in the screenplay, and the screenwriting format is supposed to allow them that freedom." Again, screenwriting is COLLABORATIVE.

As far as writing action is concerned: "When it comes to how to write a fight scene or action in general, the most important thing to remember is that whatever you write probably won’t be actually shot that way. It will be changed when it comes time to shoot, depending on the abilities of the performers and the realities of the set. You are not the stunt coordinator. Keep your action writing tight - not verbose. Some writers don't go into much detail at all, leave the fight choreography up to the stunt people or fight choreographers. Ang Lee in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon simply writes: They fight. Tony Gilroy et al in The Bourne trilogies writes thrilling action scenes without going into much detail regarding the action itself. He sets everything up perfectly but leaves the fight choreography details to others. He also has a very tight writing style, which is great for action."

An article on Indiewire about why action scenes in big-budget movies have become so boring stated it plainly: "More and more Hollywood action scenes are unbearable. There's a reason for that: studios aren't hiring the right directors." And to add to that, directors decide the stunt choreography team.

Straight from the horse's mouth:

When it comes to the action sequences, where do they come in the writing process? Do you write around them, or are they integral to your story?

No, I write them. Part of the fun for me is writing the action sequences. I'm like a geek that grew up playing with Star Wars toys and creating action sequences, essentially, with toys. So now I get to do that in my mind, and eventually it manifests as something sort of real, and then the computer makes it seem really real. But there's a lot of people who are involved in actually crafting and manifesting those sequences.

The most important thing for me in an action sequences is, you understand the characters' intention and the challenges the characters are going to have to face. What the character story is within the action sequence. Then I'll write it in a way that excites me visually, and then by the time it gets to the theatre, it's now gone through me and the director talking about it, the director and me and the second unit director who's going to have to shoot most of the physical real-life in-camera action, the visual effects department that creates that, the pre-vis department that's also involved. So there's a tonne of people. You're talking about hundreds of people who are involved in creating and completing an action sequence in a movie. But it does start on the page. I don't write around it. Some writers do - some writers will say, you know, "then they fight and this person wins." But I like it. I get so immersed when I'm writing that it would be hard for me to cheat anywhere. I really write the movie that I'm imagining in my head.

 

[Drexelhand]

Straight from the horse's mouth:

That might be one of the reasons I haven't liked Kinberg as a screenwriter. He tries to direct in his screenplay. Now I'm not saying have a one line fight like some people do like he says, but it's almost like he's wanted to direct for a while. I still remain with my expectations of Kinberg in check though.

 

[Cktopl33]

Straight from the horse's mouth:

Does this:

But it does start on the page. I don't write around it. Some writers do - some writers will say, you know, "then they fight and this person wins." But I like it. I get so immersed when I'm writing that it would be hard for me to cheat anywhere.

really change this fact?:

"When it comes to how to write a fight scene or action in general, the most important thing to remember is that whatever you write probably won’t be actually shot that way. It will be changed when it comes time to shoot, depending on the abilities of the performers and the realities of the set.

Hence.....

But there's a lot of people who are involved in actually crafting and manifesting those sequences.......it's now gone through me and the director talking about it, the director and me and the second unit director who's going to have to shoot most of the physical real-life in-camera action, the visual effects department that creates that, the pre-vis department that's also involved. So there's a tonne of people. You're talking about hundreds of people who are involved in creating and completing an action sequence in a movie.

And it didn't dismiss my point about screenwriting being a collaborative process specifically with the director.....so.....anywho...let's not forget, this is likely AFTER all the other story treatments from the story team brought onto the movie. As well as studio notes that aren't made public. All of which Kinberg wrote into that script.

 

[psylockolussus]

How many characters in dp would be knocked down with a head butt or knocking their head into something. Because those are great ways to end a fight scene or beat a villain. That seems to be a tradition in Kinberg's screenplays. Lmao. Such a great scriptwriter for action sequences.

 

[Cktopl33]

How many characters in dp would be knocked down with a head butt or knocking their head into something. Because those are great ways to end a fight scene or beat a villain. That seems to be a tradition in Kinberg's screenplays. Lmao. Such a great scriptwriter for action sequences.

As repeated several times, screenwriters don't usually determine the actual outcome of how an action sequence will appear. This comes down to the vision of how the director sees the action playing out in a shot (because...you know...the director sets up the shot and shoots it) and how well orchestrated the choreography team is put in place and utilized. Its not the screenwriter who's shooting and directing the scene. In the case of Dark Phoenix however, it'll all be under Kinberg's control so we'll see how well he utilizes his choreography team compared to Singer.

 

[psylockolussus]

So the action sequences written by Kinberg are better? Who decided that Juggernaut, Pyro, Psylocke, Angel should have been beaten by knocking their head into something? The visual effects, the director? The fight choreographer? You are giving Kinberg a pass.

 

[X-Maniac]

Never mind characters bashing their heads, I LOL every time at Raven's Elbow of Death in X:A when she knocks out the big guy at the circus.

 

[psylockolussus]

Clearly anyone would pass out with the elbow that didn't hit even their face most especially a big dude. This is Kinberg adaptating how he played with toy figures before.

 

[Elayis]

I just can't understand the "fail upwards" mentality of Hollywood. How many horrible films does Kinberg have to be involved with before he stops getting work? I'll give the guy his due, he seems to be a competent (perhaps even talented) producer, but his track records when it comes to writing (and now directing) movies is atrocious. He's been involved with some of the most reviled comic book movies of all time (The Last Stand, both incarnations of Fantastic Four, and Apocalypse certainly wasn't certainly wasn't well received).

It strikes me as particularly odd that his first feature would be a blockbuster film like this. He may have experience at second-unit/ghost directing after FF & Apocalypse, but if he fails here it may dash any hopes at future directing opportunities.

It's hard to give someone the benefit of the doubt when they consistently churn out sub-par products. I haven't written the movie off entirely yet, but I'm also not expecting not expecting the movie to be anywhere close to what I would consider acceptable. I've never enjoyed a single film that he's written and I doubt Dark Phoenix will be the film that reverses that trend. Right now the only thing about the film I'm looking forward to is Hans Zimmer's score.

 

[psylockolussus]

20th Century Fox and studio heads aren't clearly the smartest when it comes to creative decisions. Also studio politics and money play a huge role in these deals.

 

[Erik Lensherr]

Mistakes were made in XMA, but you can only learn from a mistake after you admit you've made it. Kinberg confess his fatal mistakes in XMA.

Give him a chance.

 

[Cktopl33]

So the action sequences written by Kinberg are better? Who decided that Juggernaut, Pyro, Psylocke, Angel should have been beaten by knocking their head into something? The visual effects, the director? The fight choreographer? You are giving Kinberg a pass.

I'm not giving Kinberg a pass. What I'm saying is in the movie-making process, the director has the final say, not the screenwriter. If the director didn't like the outcome of the shot, the director has the power to change it (aside from studio exec/financiers). It's not really determined by what the script says regarding the action: "In a screenplay, you’re not going to write every punch. Rather, you need to get specific about what makes this fight unique to this moment and this movie.The scene as written gives a sense of what the final scene will feel like, even if a lot of the details change. That’s what you should be aiming for in a fight sequence."

It's usually the fight/stunt choreographer, director, & storyboard artist who choreographs the detail of what you actually see in a fight sequence based on the director's vision.

I actually found a video of screenwriters with Kinberg talking about THAT VERY SUBJECT of writing an action sequence (51:46-53:40) (58:27-59:20):
For those who don't want to watch the video:

Kinberg: "If your writing a movie that you know is in production before or as you're writing it, you understand the infrastructure of all the people who are going to contribute to creating the action sequence. The script is not as much of a sales tool as it is a blueprint. You know the second unit director, the storyboard artist, and all these other people are going to contribute to the action sequence and you're actually more responsible for the drama and the dialogue and the structure, than for the specificity of the action.

When your writing from scratch, you use the sequences and wording of the sequences to create tone."

[YT]LyCubd8PI_Q[/YT]

 

[Elayis]

Mistakes were made in XMA, but you can only learn from a mistake after you admit you've made it. Kinberg confess his fatal mistakes in XMA.

Give him a chance.

I'd be fine with this statement if Apocalypse was his first fumble, but that's nowhere near the case. Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle, xXx: State of the Union, Mr. & Mrs. Smith, X-Men: The Last Stand, Jumper, Sherlock Holmes, This Means War, X-Men: Days of Future Past, Fantastic Four... there are a lot more misses there than there are hits, and the overall trend of his career is arguably incompetence, or if I'm feeling generous mediocrity. He's been a creative driving force on at least four previous comic book movies and only one of those was successful both at the box office and with critics/fans (I happen to dislike DoFP but I know that's a minority view).

My point is that Kinberg is long past being given the benefit of the doubt, and at this point he not only seems to misunderstand the X-Universe and how to properly utilize its characters on the big screen, but there are many legitimate questions about his abilities at writing/directing. He may be a nice guy and good at organizing productions, but that doesn't necessarily translate to good filmmaking chops.

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

Mistakes were made in XMA, but you can only learn from a mistake after you admit you've made it. Kinberg confess his fatal mistakes in XMA.

Give him a chance.

Your unwavering positivity is endearing

 

[psylockolussus]

Mistakes were made in XMA, but you can only learn from a mistake after you admit you've made it. Kinberg confess his fatal mistakes in XMA.

Give him a chance.

You should speak for yourself. After X3/Fantastic Four, he had enough chances. Dark PhoeniX could be great, but if he wants people to trust him he has to earn it first by delivering a good film after another. Blind faith isn't smart.

 

[SumT]

Mistakes were made in XMA, but you can only learn from a mistake after you admit you've made it. Kinberg confess his fatal mistakes in XMA.

He also admited the mistakes of X3, yet he made Apocalypse 10 years later, so he didnt learn anything

he created a script with too many introductions, killed various characters again, he wasted some x-men again... and the critics reacted the same way.

So the excuses dont work anymore. He is a producer and will always want to save face after a boxoffice dissapointment, thats his job: to sell his productions. But general audience and the fanbase arent fools anymore.

 

[Cktopl33]

He also admited the mistakes of X3, yet he made Apocalypse 10 years later, so he didnt learn anything

he created a script with too many introductions, killed various characters again, he wasted some x-men again... and the critics reacted the same way.

So the excuses dont work anymore. He is a producer and will always want to save face after a boxoffice dissapointment, thats his job: to sell his productions. But general audience and the fanbase arent fools anymore.

Everybody knows the issues on X3 were beyond his control. And as far as X-men Apocalypse, remember the story sessions putting the script together? Who's names are listed? Only Simon Kinberg or additional names? Is this solely Kinberg's vision? Or is the director sitting there at the center explaining his vision and idea? Again, screenwriting is a collaborative process (unless the director directs his or her own script).

 

[Cktopl33]

My point is that Kinberg is long past being given the benefit of the doubt, and at this point he not only seems to misunderstand the X-Universe and how to properly utilize its characters on the big screen, but there are many legitimate questions about his abilities at writing/directing. He may be a nice guy and good at organizing productions, but that doesn't necessarily translate to good filmmaking chops.

I think you misunderstand something. Good film-making is primarily the job of the director. With the x-men films, Kinberg wasn't writing the script primarily of his own sole vision. That's only now happening with his turn in the director's chair in Dark Phoenix. He even showed that both Mathew Vaughn as well as Bryan Singer knew nothing about the x-men comics. Everyone seems to ignore that. Yet with DOFP, he was always in collaboration with the director in putting the script together. He had to work around the vision of the director:

I wrote the first draft of the script in the spring and the summer, with Matthew primarily, who was going to be the director at the time. Then Matthew fell off the project, and Bryan came on as director, and we continued to work on the script in the fall and the beginning of this year [2013].

 

[Frankeh]

Everybody knows the issues on X3 were beyond his control.

Is that the same excuse you use for Fant4stic, despite the fact it was his job to oversee that project as a producer? Despite the fact he also wrote it? Despite the fact he hired Josh Trank?

Also, he is officially credited as the screenwriter of X-Men: Apocalypse, so hell yeah I'm gonna blame him for that crappy script. And Singer's direction sucked too (at least whatever he did get to direct).

 

[Elayis]

I think you misunderstand something. Good film-making is primarily the job of the director. With the x-men films, Kinberg wasn't writing the script primarily of his own sole vision. That's only now happening with his turn in the director's chair in Dark Phoenix. He even showed that both Mathew Vaughn as well as Bryan Singer knew nothing about the x-men comics. Everyone seems to ignore that. Yet with DOFP, he was always in collaboration with the director in putting the script together. He had to work around the vision of the director:

I'm not misunderstanding anything. You cannot say he had only a passing influence on the comic book films he's written. Heck, by all accounts he even ghost-directed a good amount of both Fant4stic & Apocalypse. Writers provide the backbone from which a film is constructed, and to me are the single most important component of filmmaking. Good directors can do a lot with a mediocre script, but they can't fix one that is fundamentally banal and lifeless.

I've liked plenty of films by both Bryan Singer & Matthew Vaughn, but have not enjoyed a single film that Simon Kinberg has written the script for. Either he's one of the unluckiest screenwriters in the business and keeps getting assigned to directors that tamper with & dilute his vision, or he's simply a journeyman talent who keeps getting work because he's reliable and pleasant to work with. Granted, he hasn't worked with the best of directors, but his work up to now hasn't exactly been phenomenal.

Personally I'm concerned that pure, unadulterated Kinberg will be far worse than filtered Kinberg (though I'm not sure how Dark Phoenix could manage to be worse than Apocalypse or Fant4stic; if it is than Kinberg deserves some kind of award for being that creative).

I would love to be proven wrong and be blown away by how great Dark Phoenix is (I'd even be amazed if it was simply okay/middling, like Homecoming or Thor), but my gut tells me that it's unlikely. Even the film of his that critics and fans seem to love (DoFP) I feel has significant and substantive problems. Having seen several of his movies, there's a definite trend and style to his writing that shines through even with different directors, so I think it's safe to say I'm not a fan of his.

 

[Cktopl33]

Is that the same excuse you use for Fant4stic, despite the fact it was his job to oversee that project as a producer? Despite the fact he also wrote it? Despite the fact he hired Josh Trank?

Also, he is officially credited as the screenwriter of X-Men: Apocalypse, so hell yeah I'm gonna blame him for that crappy script. And Singer's direction sucked too (at least whatever he did get to direct).

Hmmm. Fant4stic outcome was Josh Trank's responsibility as the director. Trank created his own problems with his behavior on set. He was brought onto the project in 2012. By that time there was already a different producer attached and a different screenwriter. When Trank came on, there was another screenwriter hired. Then another, along with another producer. Kinberg didn't come on until late 2013. And was a co-writer as well as producer along with several other producers on that film....but for some reason you seem to think Kinberg was the main driving force behind everything.

Kinberg is credited screenwriter for X-men Apocalypse because he is putting all of the ideas generated in those script sessions and studio notes into an official script format. That doesn't mean he is the sole creator of all the ideas that appeared in the script. The x-men scripts are not scripts written from scratch solely by one scriptwriter. The only x-men movie where that is happening is Dark Phoenix where he is both writer and director with no other screenwriters or story teams.