Homecoming The Spider-Man Skepticism Thread - Part 1

[2kt09]

Seriously, can we get someone to make a new skepticism thread? This one has completely gone to **** with pathetic race baiting arguments.

The movie's almost here anyways. Any grievances either belong in the main thread or the review thread. Don't think a "Things You Didn't like" is necessary.

 

[SpideyJJ]

The movie's almost here anyways. Any grievances either belong in the main thread or the review thread. Don't think a "Things You Didn't like" is necessary.

Problem is, with the last few pages it's been less about grievances and more about annoying race baiting. It's pretty hard to have a decent convo about grievances when the thread is bombarded with stuff like this

 

[Kreem Pi]

I remember hearing the exact same arguments when Idris Elba was confirmed as playing Heimdall. The exact same explanations. The exact same I'm not a racist, but.... exceptions. After Thor all those sentiments, all those arguements, explanations and I ain't racist, but....stuff were suddenly nonexistent. I expect the same to happen here.

Notice how little ruckus there is about Valkyrie being black compared to MJ? Thor fans remember. Even if they pretend not to.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Who is "Valkerye" ?

 

[Kreem Pi]

I typed too fast.

 

[jasontodd]

I remember hearing the exact same arguments when Idris Elba was confirmed as playing Heimdall. The exact same explanations. The exact same I'm not a racist, but.... exceptions. After Thor all those sentiments, all those arguements, explanations and I ain't racist, but....stuff were suddenly nonexistent. I expect the same to happen here.

Notice how little ruckus there is about Valkyrie being black compared to MJ? Thor fans remember. Even if they pretend not to.

Literally has nothing to do with Mary Jane being a person of color. The problem lies in the total reinvention of the character.

 

[Kreem Pi]

Literally has nothing to do with Mary Jane being a person of color. The problem lies in the total reinvention of the character.

You should read the last page then.

 

[Alana´s Gun]

Problem is, with the last few pages it's been less about grievances and more about annoying race baiting. It's pretty hard to have a decent convo about grievances when the thread is bombarded with stuff like this

I´m about to check out the film in about ten minutes.

Remember kids, the only people who can be ¨race baited¨are in fact people who hold racist ideas.

I agree with the sentiment that she should just be called MJ but no dount they have a different name for her because of reaction we see on this forum of people outraged that Mary Jane could be anything but white. I leaves them room to change their minds later if the push back is too much.

We´ve seen this with Idris, John Boyega and countless others. Many don´t want to see darker skinned people in popular roles of classic characters because for them everything must be from a time where everyone was white

 

[Broseph44]

I´m about to check out the film in about ten minutes.

Remember kids, the only people who can be ¨race baited¨are in fact people who hold racist ideas.

I agree with the sentiment that she should just be called MJ but no dount they have a different name for her because of reaction we see on this forum of people outraged that Mary Jane could be anything but white. I leaves them room to change their minds later if the push back is too much.

We´ve seen this with Idris, John Boyega and countless others. Many don´t want to see darker skinned people in popular roles of classic characters because for them everything must be from a time where everyone was white

Just stop.

 

[2kt09]

Yeah, seriously. I've seen discussions on here about MJ without having to get into this.
Dunno why the one banned user got the rest of you guys so worked up.

 

[Mistah K88]

but they didn't have to change around so many of the characters.

in fact, as evidenced by Spectacular, Peter already has quite a diverse HS cast.

where's Randy? where's Gloria?? where's Kenny "Kong?"

those are existing characters they could have used. Make Liz Hispanic like Spectacular.

etc.

and even if they changed the races around, that doesn't excuse changing the whole characters around - which is the biggest offense imo.

To be fair, a good chunk of the cast in Spectacular who weren't white were originally white in the comics...

Originally Black in comics:
Glory Grant
Randy Robertson
Robbie Robertson
Hobie Brown
Lonnie Thomson Lincoln (Tombstone)

Changed in Spectacular Spidey:
Black
Debra Whitman
Roderick Kingsley
Fancy Dan
Dr. Nicholas Bromwell
Principal Andrew Davis
Coach Smith

Latino
Liz Allan (Puerto Rican)
Mark (Raxton) Allan (Puerto Rican)
Ox

Asian
Ned Lee(ds) (Korean)
Kenny (McFarlane) “Kong”
Miles Warren (Indian)
Aaron (Raymond) Warren (Indian)

The cartoon just took the core character and slapped a coat of paint on them though... For example, look at Ned in Spec and Ned here...

 

[X Knight]

To be fair, a good chunk of the cast in Spectacular who weren't white were originally white in the comics...

Originally Black in comics:
Glory Grant
Randy Robertson
Robbie Robertson
Hobie Brown
Lonnie Thomson Lincoln (Tombstone)

Changed in Spectacular Spidey:
Black
Debra Whitman
Roderick Kingsley
Fancy Dan
Dr. Nicholas Bromwell
Principal Andrew Davis
Coach Smith

Latino
Liz Allan (Puerto Rican)
Mark (Raxton) Allan (Puerto Rican)
Ox

Asian
Ned Lee(ds) (Korean)
Kenny (McFarlane) “Kong”
Miles Warren (Indian)
Aaron (Raymond) Warren (Indian)

The cartoon just took the core character and slapped a coat of paint on them though... For example, look at Ned in Spec and Ned here...

but they kept the core character intact and the ones they did change were relatively minor/tertiary support characters or villains.

Spectacular didn't change major characters and more importantly it didn't fundamentally change the core of the characters.

In Homecoming, they are not only changing the races of some of the characters ( and one major character in particular ) but more importantly ( and I'm bolding this for emphasis ), they are changing core characteristics of the characters.

They could have cast a white chick who's paler than Sheamus with natural red hair and green eyes, but if they changed the character's name to Michelle and made her look and act like Michelle with only the initials MJ intact, I would still be complaining about the character. That still wouldn't be MJ to me, and race would have absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

[X Knight]

Just stop.

Yeah, seriously. I've seen discussions on here about MJ without having to get into this.
Dunno why the one banned user got the rest of you guys so worked up.

I know, right.

when a thread gets like this, you don't even want to bother to come here and post.

 

[marvelrobbins]

i may go see homecoming sunday but my skeptism only inceased.and it's not about changing races that are problem it;s changing characters entirely that
they become in name only.

spectular spider-man changed races but was still spider-man.far cry from here.

 

[Faith_Cassidy]

Just stop.

Stop what? The poster didn't see anything that wasn't accurate. I don't understand why you'd object if it doesn't apply to you.

 

[Mistah K88]

but they kept the core character intact and the ones they did change were relatively minor/tertiary support characters or villains.

Spectacular didn't change major characters and more importantly it didn't fundamentally change the core of the characters.

In Homecoming, they are not only changing the races of some of the characters ( and one major character in particular ) but more importantly ( and I'm bolding this for emphasis ), they are changing core characteristics of the characters.

They could have cast a white chick who's paler than Sheamus with natural red hair and green eyes, but if they changed the character's name to Michelle and made her look and act like Michelle with only the initials MJ intact, I would still be complaining about the character. That still wouldn't be MJ to me, and race would have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Oh no, I definitely agree with you. To tell you the truth, I prefer the way Spectacular did it. Black Kingsley is one of my favorite ideas ever (what?!), and I will say that it actually made me a bit more invested in these minor characters, who probably would not have been able to stand out all that much with the major characters had they all looked like their comic book counterparts.

That said, there is a hierarchy on what characters have iconic looks in the mythos or not. There is a clear difference between characters like Gwen Stacy and Mary Jane Watson, to characters like Debra Whitman, Sally Avril, and Liz Allan.

That said, I think Michelle is pretty much a "Detective Terri Lee". The latter being an original character from the 94 cartoon, but was basically a black Jean DeWolff... who was white in comics and Native American in Spectacular. Then again, I think Detective Lee had more in common with DeWolff than Michelle does with Mary Jane... but we'll see.

 

[X Knight]

Oh no, I definitely agree with you. To tell you the truth, I prefer the way Spectacular did it. Black Kingsley is one of my favorite ideas ever (what?!), and I will say that it actually made me a bit more invested in these minor characters, who probably would not have been able to stand out all that much with the major characters had they all looked like their comic book counterparts.

That said, there is a hierarchy on what characters have iconic looks in the mythos or not. There is a clear difference between characters like Gwen Stacy and Mary Jane Watson, to characters like Debra Whitman, Sally Avril, and Liz Allan.

That said, I think Michelle is pretty much a "Detective Terri Lee". The latter being an original character from the 94 cartoon, but was basically a black Jean DeWolff... who was white in comics and Native American in Spectacular. Then again, I think Detective Lee had more in common with DeWolff than Michelle does with Mary Jane... but we'll see.

yeah, I agree with you about the hierarchy of characters in the mythos.

 

[slimshady247]

Stop what? The poster didn't see anything that wasn't accurate. I don't understand why you'd object if it doesn't apply to you.

 

[AlluAllu]

Reposting this to an appropriate thread:

Possible spoilers about details of the finale.

Spoiler

It also REALLY amped up Spider-Man's amateurism. Is it me, or does he partially cause some of the biggest disasters in the film because he won't give up? Like that plane. I mean sheesh it was a heist, not like a big world ending disaster.

Exactly THIS. My huge criticism of the movie. I appreciate it that Peter is shown making errors and learning from them. Except that the finale really undermined his supposed learning. What did he think was going to happen when engaging Vulture in combat up there? He very nearly caused a new WTC. Sheer luck played way too big of a role in him making things better instead of lot worse. It wasn't even that necessary. He knew Toomes's identity. Let Toomes think he is dead and get some feds to arrest him while he is being a family man.

Originally I gave the movie 8/10, but that just ruins the main narrative arc for me so that I have to drop it to 6/10. But I don't have heart to give such an otherwise great movie such a low score. 7/10 it shall be then.

 

[NealKenneth]

Reposting this to an appropriate thread:

Possible spoilers about details of the finale.

Spoiler

Exactly THIS. My huge criticism of the movie. I appreciate it that Peter is shown making errors and learning from them. Except that the finale really undermined his supposed learning. What did he think was going to happen when engaging Vulture in combat up there? He very nearly caused a new WTC. Sheer luck played way too big of a role in him making things better instead of lot worse. It wasn't even that necessary. He knew Toomes's identity. Let Toomes think he is dead and get some feds to arrest him while he is being a family man.

Originally I gave the movie 8/10, but that just ruins the main narrative arc for me so that I have to drop it to 6/10. But I don't have heart to give such an otherwise great movie such a low score. 7/10 it shall be then.

You are overthinking it and I don't think it's a fair analysis either.

Spoiler

Peter doesn't cause the plane to crash or lose control, first of all. That's the Vulture being careless while trying to knock Peter off of it.

Second, yes, it may have been more responsible to have the feds handle it. Maybe. Vulture and his men are very capable of taking the feds on...how many feds would die in the effort to take Vulture in? Yeah, Toomes is a family man but he has resources. Peter doesn't know what sort of lawyers he's gonna hire or if he's going to go into hiding (his wife is able to pull Liz out of school and move to Alaska rapidly. That takes money.) And what happens if the feds fail? Toomes is definitely gonna know who turned him over and he made it very clear to Peter what the consequence of that would be.

Also, don't forget that Peter did attempt to let Stark know by contacting Happy.

You've got to get your head into the world of the movie. As Toomes says, a whole lot of what people like him do is simply beneath the notice of people like Stark. Peter is recognizing that problem and it's a big part of why he decides to stay in the neighborhood instead of joining the Avengers.

He's taking matters into his own hands because the feds can't and The Avengers have bigger fish to fry.

 

[SpideyJJ]

Finally gonna watch the movie in about 5 minutes, will come back with as objective a review as possible. Wish me luck people!

 

[Mysteryman]

Good luck and have FUN!

 

[AlluAllu]

You are overthinking it and I don't think it's a fair analysis either.

Spoiler

Peter doesn't cause the plane to crash or lose control, first of all. That's the Vulture being careless while trying to knock Peter off of it.

Second, yes, it may have been more responsible to have the feds handle it. Maybe. Vulture and his men are very capable of taking the feds on...how many feds would die in the effort to take Vulture in? Yeah, Toomes is a family man but he has resources. Peter doesn't know what sort of lawyers he's gonna hire or if he's going to go into hiding (his wife is able to pull Liz out of school and move to Alaska rapidly. That takes money.) And what happens if the feds fail? Toomes is definitely gonna know who turned him over and he made it very clear to Peter what the consequence of that would be.

Also, don't forget that Peter did attempt to let Stark know by contacting Happy.

You've got to get your head into the world of the movie. As Toomes says, a whole lot of what people like him do is simply beneath the notice of people like Stark. Peter is recognizing that problem and it's a big part of why he decides to stay in the neighborhood instead of joining the Avengers.

He's taking matters into his own hands because the feds can't and The Avengers have bigger fish to fry.

Yeah, I really am overthinking it. It was an exciting sequence. I just feel Peter's arc could be so much stronger if the finale was somehow modified.

Spoiler

The ferry failure is treated as this big moment where Peter comes face to face with his mistakes. Then he goes after Toomes, just like before. (Admittedly after exhausting options to call for help.) When Spidey confronts Vulture, nothing in his actions seems to have changed. He just tries his best and this time Peter succeeds in preventing the disaster he almost partially caused. Yes, obviously Toomes is the main culprit, but Peter should have understood that fighting him most likely would cause collateral damage that'd endanger hundreds of lives.

Now, those gizmos that Vulture tried to steal, they were dangerous. Maybe taking the risk was justified. But I just feel like he learned nothing and only succeeded because of better luck.

 

[KnuckleBomb]

After seeing the movie I was right to be skeptical I'll stick with the comics and spectacular spider-man from now on

 

[SpideyJJ]

Just got back from the screening... Anyone who's paid attention enough here knows I was one of the bigger skeptics of alot of the creative choices, but despite this I still went to see the movie with as open a mind as possible. I gotta say, I was pleasantly surprised. It wasn't the perfect Spider-Man movie like alot of the initial reviews seemed to gush it was (and I definitely didn't like some stuff), but I really enjoyed it. I'll give my full review a bit later