Homecoming The Spider-Man Skepticism Thread

[X Knight]

Indeed. And then there are more changes to new elements being brought in from the comics like the webs & gadgets Peter made all coming from Stark, Ned Leeds being turned into Ganke, Jason, Sally & Tiny all from the original comics being in this movie as young geniuses. It's almost like Marvel/Carroll/Watts thinks they're doing something by slapping random names from the comics onto their original/hybrid creations. Like Fans will be happy just because they "remember that name" from the comics! Carroll further demonstrated this rhetoric when he praised Shocker's costume for having "isolated yellow sleeves & a gauntlet like the comics" like that's suppose to make fans happy because it has a slight nod to Herman's classic costume.

and change for the sake of change, diversity for the sake of diversity, is the worst possible route to take.

especially when you consider that Peter has plenty of diversity in his HS and DB supporting cast, with some changes as in Spectacular.

plus, the HS and DB cast haven't fully been explored or utilized in the prior films beyond just the surface.

so, they could be different by simply focusing on the HS/DB supporting cast and making them more prominent, without having to radically change and mix and match the characters around.

 

[X Knight]

Tony Stark is Bond. Tony Stark is also Q. Aunt May is Moneypenny. They'll flirt together.

Peter is just the random lab technician/guinea pig that Q would get to demonstrate his weapons to Bond.

that good ol' Parker luck, I see.

 

[harryoscop]

and change for the sake of change, diversity for the sake of diversity, is the worst possible route to take.

especially when you consider that Peter has plenty of diversity in his HS and DB supporting cast, with some changes as in Spectacular.

plus, the HS and DB cast haven't fully been explored or utilized in the prior films beyond just the surface.

so, they could be different by simply focusing on the HS/DB supporting cast and making them more prominent, without having to radically change and mix and match the characters around.

This is what they should've did, introduced:


- Liz
- Sally
- Randy
- Michelle
- Kenny Kong
- Ned Leeds (who is not Ganke)
- Gloria
- Betty
- Jason
- Cindy (Really don't mind her inclusion)

There's your new cast without mix & matching. Add in Flash (with Kenny, Jason & Sally as part of his entourage). Doesn't have to be a physical bully but still verbally assault Peter, dis him & etc. Still be an athlete & jock. Cindy is Flash's girlfriend but doesn't like how mean he is to Peter. Make Ned a reporter for the school which forshadows his future career. Have Randy namedrop Robbie & Jameson. Gloria wants to be a model, Betty has a job at the Bugle. Michelle is not a love interest for Peter. Liz is popular at school but isn't a snob like Flash. Basically her portrayal in Homecoming (which is fine)


The actors who are already cast in the roles of the characters could still work. Although, I'd switch Jacob Batalon to Kenny Mcfarlane & Angourie Rice to Sally Avril & isabella amara to Betty Brant. Revolori would have an athletic build and Ned could still be Peter's friend & still be Asian, just closer to his comic self & not a Ganke clone. I'd get Ryan Potter for Ned. Midtown would not be a science High-school with geniuses but a regular High-school.


That's the route I would have taken. New, fresh but still close to the comics & not taking elements from Miles Morales.


Cast:
Peter- Tom
Flash- Tony Revolori
Liz- Laura Harrier
Sally- Angourie Rice
Betty- Isabella Amara
Randy- Shameik Moore
Jason- Michael Barberi
Ned- Ryan Potter
Gloria- Zendaya Coleman
Kenny- Jacob Batalon
Michelle- ???
Cindy- Tiffany Espensen

 

[Web-Head]

^ I like that angle with the HS cast. Rice would be Gwen though
I think they basically could've just followed the Spectacular Spider-Man template with the HS stuff and it would've been perfect.

 

[harryoscop]

^ I like that angle with the HS cast. Rice would be Gwen though
I think they basically could've just followed the Spectacular Spider-Man template with the HS stuff and it would've been perfect.

I would too but Marvel & Pascal were shaking in their boots at the notion of using any character that appeared in a previous movie besides May & Flash.

SSM would have been the best formula to follow indeed. I'd add Harry, MJ & Gwen to that list above. Ideally it would be a mix of old & new

 

[X Knight]

This is what they should've did, introduced:


- Liz
- Sally
- Randy
- Michelle
- Kenny Kong
- Ned Leeds (who is not Ganke)
- Gloria
- Betty
- Jason
- Cindy (Really don't mind her inclusion)

There's your new cast without mix & matching. Add in Flash (with Kenny, Jason & Sally as part of his entourage). Doesn't have to be a physical bully but still verbally assault Peter, dis him & etc. Still be an athlete & jock. Cindy is Flash's girlfriend but doesn't like how mean he is to Peter. Make Ned a reporter for the school which forshadows his future career. Have Randy namedrop Robbie & Jameson. Gloria wants to be a model, Betty has a job at the Bugle. Michelle is not a love interest for Peter. Liz is popular at school but isn't a snob like Flash. Basically her portrayal in Homecoming (which is fine)


The actors who are already cast in the roles of the characters could still work. Although, I'd switch Jacob Batalon to Kenny Mcfarlane & Angourie Rice to Sally Avril & isabella amara to Betty Brant. Revolori would have an athletic build and Ned could still be Peter's friend & still be Asian, just closer to his comic self & not a Ganke clone. I'd get Ryan Potter for Ned. Midtown would not be a science High-school with geniuses but a regular High-school.


That's the route I would have taken. New, fresh but still close to the comics & not taking elements from Miles Morales.


Cast:
Peter- Tom
Flash- Tony Revolori
Liz- Laura Harrier
Sally- Angourie Rice
Betty- Isabella Amara
Randy- Shameik Moore
Jason- Michael Barberi
Ned- Ryan Potter
Gloria- Zendaya Coleman
Kenny- Jacob Batalon
Michelle- ???
Cindy- Tiffany Espensen

^ I like that angle with the HS cast. Rice would be Gwen though
I think they basically could've just followed the Spectacular Spider-Man template with the HS stuff and it would've been perfect.

I would too but Marvel & Pascal were shaking in their boots at the notion of using any character that appeared in a previous movie besides May & Flash.

SSM would have been the best formula to follow indeed. I'd add Harry, MJ & Gwen to that list above. Ideally it would be a mix of old & new

yep. I've said many times that SSM provided almost the perfect template to follow.

sure, they don't have to follow it exactly, but they don't have to deviate from it too much, either.

the SSM template, with a few modifications here and there, would have been perfect.

Plus, SSM MJ is about as accurate of a depiction of classic comic MJ, even though they modified her to be younger and in HS ( but still retained the basic elements of the character ). THAT'S the MJ I wanted in MCU Spidey, especially since SSM never finished and we never got to see Peter and MJ finally get together.

there are always going to be changes and modifications. there are always going to be some degree of mixing and matching. and that's all fine as long as the core elements of the characters are retained.

but when you change and mix-match too much, to the point where the characters become largely unrecognizable, feeling like essentially totally different characters, that's where you start running afoul.

And Homecoming, sadly, is starting to cross into that territory.

 

[2kt09]

PBP's seeing it as an off-world take.
I see it as primarily a blender of "Ultimate" iterations.

 

[PeterBenParker]

PBP's seeing it as an off-world take.
I see it as primarily a blender of "Ultimate" iterations.

That's also an accurate description. It has Bendis' Ultimate (both Peter and Miles) in it as well as the cartoon.

 

[harryoscop]

Jon Watts:

“There’s actually a precedent for a lot of these ideas in these comics,” Watts says, taking a break from his Spidey scoring sessions.“In the very first issue of Spider-Man, there was one page dedicated to all the different things that Spider-Man can do with his webs. We would always joke about that because there’s web skis, and a web boat, and a web shield. Web skis aside, the panels inspired a long brainstorming session on the possibilities of a Stark Industries-sponsored suit.

Mini rant incoming

Spoiler

It baffles me why seeing all of those early Spidey inventions in the comics would automatically make Watts & co have brainstorms over Peter's Spider-Man suit coming from Tony Stark. If anything, you'd think they'd talk about making the MCU Peter the most technological adapt film Peter Parker & the smartest one yet in the sense that he can come up with low-budget gadgets (which was what they were in the comics, Homecoming only tricked out these inventions to forcibly fit with the idea of an advanced Stark suit) in his basement which he turned into a lab. Show people WHY Marvel's take on Peter Parker is the definitive version. It's like they wanted his suit & equipment to be from Stark from the beginning & looked at early comics of Spidey to justify it in a sense.

I wonder if they had discussions about Hank Pym's Ant-Man suit coming from Stark too because he used an assortment of gadgets? Is Iron Man and Tony Stark the only thing that clicks in their brain every time they see technologically adapt hero?

 

[Dark Raven]

Peter is probably bottom of his class in his science school. Even Flash Thompson will probably help out Ganke with further modifications to the suit in future.

 

[SpideyJJ]

I love RDJ's Stark, I really do. And I'm pretty happy that we're even in a position where we can discuss him being in a Spider-Man movie......but for goodness sake, I hope they drop the Stark created Spider suit angle by the time the sequel rolls around

 

[Dark Raven]

Stark could always install Iron Man 3 remote control technology into the spider suit, so that if Peter gets hurt, Tony can still control it from a distance. Maybe get him to remotely web swing to safety and also take out any bad guys along the way. Peter doesn't even need to be conscious for that.

 

[2kt09]

Stark could always install Iron Man 3 remote control technology into the spider suit, so that if Peter gets hurt, Tony can still control it from a distance. Maybe get him to remotely web swing to safety and also take out any bad guys along the way. Peter doesn't even need to be conscious for that.

lol RIP MCU Venom

 

[harryoscop]

Taking this to the scepticism thread as not to clog up the main thread

Glad to hear that from Gunn. As someone who has forgotten more about Spider-man than most people on this planet will ever know, Tom looks to be giving us the definitive portrayal of Peter Parker and I'm hoping he has a long, prosperous future as Spider-man.

Define "definitive" he's certainly not the closest to the comics of the three live action Peter Parker. That would be Maguire. While yes, in the future he has the potential to become definitive but right now he's nowhere near close to it.

This Peter is the only one in any movie to have created both his web-shooters and web-fluid, the two most iconic pieces of Spider-mans equipment. I couldn't care less that he didn't sew his own costume or design a handful of extra gadgets, he's already proven his impressive intellect.

That's like saying it's okay that another character designs the iconic red & gold Iron Man suit (that has all of the cool features) because Tony Stark came up with the arc reactor & the mark 1 tin can armor. it's about dramatizing his intelligence. It would have been so cool to see scenes like the first 8 issues of Amazing where Peter is in his own homemade lab coming up with different things, testing different designs. We got to see a little bit of that in TASM with the Webshooters. Spidey is suppose to be the ultimate independent hero. Peter in the movie actually goes to

Spoiler

Ganke in the movie for help because he can't disable the tracker Tony put into the suit without his help

so that's another wasted opportunity to show Peter's intelligence outside of his webshooters.

 

[Flint Marko]

Taking this to the scepticism thread as not to clog up the main thread
Define "definitive" he's certainly not the closest to the comics of the three live action Peter Parker. That would be Maguire. While yes, in the future he has the potential to become definitive but right now he's nowhere near close to it.

That's like saying it's okay that another character designs the iconic red & gold Iron Man suit (that has all of the cool features) because Tony Stark came up with the arc reactor & the mark 1 tin can armor. it's about dramatizing his intelligence. It would have been so cool to see scenes like the first 8 issues of Amazing where Peter is in his own homemade lab coming up with different things, testing different designs. We got to see a little bit of that in TASM with the Webshooters. Spidey is suppose to be the ultimate independent hero. Peter in the movie actually goes to

Spoiler

Ganke in the movie for help because he can't disable the tracker Tony put into the suit without his help

so that's another wasted opportunity to show Peter's intelligence outside of his webshooters.

Again, Harry, I don't see the debate here. I just said this to you in the other thread: this is the only Peter to have created his own webbing and web-shooters. Right out of the gate, he's got a leg up on Maguire and Garfield. Him sewing a costume (a skill that shows no real technical prowess compared to creating webbing and web-shooters) or creating a handful of gadgets that aren't as iconic as the web-shooters is, in the grand scheme of things, a small detail that I can easily look past given that I think they are going to nail the story and characterization. They've already nailed this version of Peter in the ten minutes we got of him in Civil War, so I trust them. You seem to get worked up over any slight change that differs from the version of Peter you've already decided that you want, and that's your prerogative, but I'm not going to get into another lengthy debate with you.

 

[harryoscop]

Again, Harry, I don't see the debate here. I just said this to you in the other thread: this is the only Peter to have created his own webbing and web-shooters. Right out of the gate, he's got a leg up on Maguire and Garfield. Him sewing a costume (a skill that shows no real technical prowess compared to creating webbing and web-shooters) or creating a handful of gadgets that aren't as iconic as the web-shooters is, in the grand scheme of things, a small detail that I can easily look past given that I think they are going to nail the story and characterization. They've already nailed this version of Peter in the ten minutes we got of him in Civil War, so I trust them. You seem to get worked up over any slight change that differs from the version of Peter you've already decided that you want, and that's your prerogative, but I'm not going to get into another lengthy debate with you.

Well, as you can see in this thread, I'm not the only one who feels this way. It's the Peter Parker a lot of fans know & love that's in our opinion- being changed, along with the world/mythos around him. But fair enough. Agree to disagree then

 

[Web-Head]

My main complaints are the supporting cast around Peter has changed too much (Ned, Flash, Betty?) and I'd still like to see actual quips. The trailers have been better, but he was too much of a fanboy/ little kid in Civil War. "Metal arm? Awesome! That thing defies gravity!"

All the techy/suit stuff I don't mind, especially since he'll be in the homemade suit for a good portion of the film.

 

[PeterBenParker]

Jon Watts:

Spoiler

That's foolish.

Mini rant incoming

Spoiler

It baffles me why seeing all of those early Spidey inventions in the comics would automatically make Watts & co have brainstorms over Peter's Spider-Man suit coming from Tony Stark. If anything, you'd think they'd talk about making the MCU Peter the most technological adapt film Peter Parker & the smartest one yet in the sense that he can come up with low-budget gadgets (which was what they were in the comics, Homecoming only tricked out these inventions to forcibly fit with the idea of an advanced Stark suit) in his basement which he turned into a lab. Show people WHY Marvel's take on Peter Parker is the definitive version. It's like they wanted his suit & equipment to be from Stark from the beginning & looked at early comics of Spidey to justify it in a sense.

Spoiler

Imagine how cool it could've been to showcase Peter's playful genius side at work as he tests his webbing to create some of the things Watts mentioned in a montage or something. Sure it would've been cheesy, but if these forums are any indication, you do need some cheese with Spider-Man from time to time.

The comics, 60s cartoon, TAS (at times) always had Peter creating a web something and/or always had him tinkering with his own formula to defeat the freak-of-the-week. Would've been really cool to see something like that here, especially if they wanted to play up Peter being a kid showcasing his playful inventions.

I wonder if they had discussions about Hank Pym's Ant-Man suit coming from Stark too because he used an assortment of gadgets? Is Iron Man and Tony Stark the only thing that clicks in their brain every time they see technologically adapt hero?

Spoiler

Hopefully if they ever get the Fantastic Four rights, they use 'em after Stark/RDJ is on his break. Would hate to see Reed be altered to fit their quota like Peter has been.

 

[Golgo-13]

Once again, they've butchered the 'spider-sense'.

 

[Shikamaru]

I think you guys are being too ridiculous with the 'INO' calling. I'm not thrilled about Tony either, but everything outside his range looks great. The high school stuff looks like classic Peter, the relationship stuff seems like classic Peter, and the villain looks fantastic. And while I'm not thrilled about the sidekick aspect, Spidey is still quipping, still doing all his classic moves, etc.

It's really just the lack of independence that's the biggest issue. It sticks out like a sore thumb when everything else is there.

 

[the_ultimate_evil]

The only thing I'm really worried about is Sony being they're usual mornonic self and trying to take the franchise back after this and IW. all this crap of a solo venom etc not connected to the franchise shows they have learnt nothing

I hope it doesn't happen I need to see the green goblin done right. Defoe was amazing as the character but lacked the look and the less said about the coked out bevis the better

 

[harryoscop]

I think you guys are being too ridiculous with the 'INO' calling. I'm not thrilled about Tony either, but everything outside his range looks great. The high school stuff looks like classic Peter, the relationship stuff seems like classic Peter, and the villain looks fantastic. And while I'm not thrilled about the sidekick aspect, Spidey is still quipping, still doing all his classic moves, etc.

It's really just the lack of independence that's the biggest issue. It sticks out like a sore thumb when everything else is there.

The relationships aren't classic. Peter has Ganke as his best friend and confident (classic HS Peter never had a best friend or confident, he was a full-on outcast & loner), his relationship dynamic with the new May will be closer to a big sister/little brother relationship as opposed to the motherly caretaker from the classics. Flash's relationship with Peter will clearly be very different from the classics too since he's no longer an athletic jock. Him being in High-school is from the classics but the contents within the High-school elements are not from classic comics at all. Liz is perhaps the only one who is close to her classic self in the entire HS cast.

Spidey's quips are there.. But the one in the second trailer fell flat for me, personally.

 

[Spider-man95]

his relationship dynamic with the new May will be closer to a big sister/little brother relationship as opposed to the motherly figure from the classics.

So far with what little we've seen of her she's acted like a typical loving Aunt to Peter.

Especially in the new trailer where she says "You need to stop carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders", that's Aunt May to me. Knowing that Peter is troubled and giving him some words of advice.

Where are you getting the big sister vibe from? I'm curious? Is it just because she looks younger?

 

[harryoscop]

So far with what little we've seen of her she's acted like a typical loving Aunt to Peter.

Especially in the new trailer where she says "You need to stop carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders", that's Aunt May to me. Knowing that Peter is troubled and giving him some words of advice.

Where are you getting the big sister vibe from? I'm curious? Is it just because she looks younger?

No, it came from the set reports:

Instead of this grand matronly aunt who for some reason is twice the age of Peter’s parents,” he explains, “it’s almost like the big sister. They’ve lived together for so long. It’s not like she’s totally uncomfortable being a parent or anything, it’s more like she isn’t his parent. She’s a little older than him, of course, but they’re just different people. She’s a little more rock ’n roll and he’s a little more home robotics club.”

Now I'm not sure if she becomes closer to classic May relationship or not but that's not classic description of their relationship. Being a rock N' roll type is a far-cry from any May version add to that she's a "terrible cook" is another major deviation from all versions of May. Aunt May in name only

 

[Spider-man95]

No, it came from the set reports:


Now I'm not sure if she becomes closer to classic May relationship or not but that's not classic description of their relationship. Being a rock N' roll is a far-cry from any May version add to that she's a "terrible cook" is another major deviation from all versions of May.

I hadn't seen that set report....hmm.....that's quite different. I'm guessing this is their way of dealing with the big age gap Peter and May usually have.